Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mobbs]

**** I posted it on the wrong thread. I'll switch it over. Sorry Aussie in exile for orphaning your reply.

 

[IlovethePies]

Well if the War crime” offends you try lodging a complaint. My view is that war crimes almost never are relevant and are determined after the war ends. In this case the perpetrators are like to have died by the end of war. So I don’t see anyone giving a shit. And surely the worker rights part of you should be happy that military and political bosses sending workers to death are themselves getting killed.

I don't care that Kirillov is dead either. I am just pointing out that the SBU is using terrorist methods to assassinate adversaries off the battle field, and the US/NATO governments are happy to go along with that - just as they were with the pager attack by Mossad in Lebanon, or Israel's targeted assassinations of military and political figures off the battle field.

It is a comment on the ongoing normalisation of war crimes on and off the battle field by the socalled "civilised democratic " governments that I am pointing to, not any concern for the death of a figure such as Kirillov.

It shows that these governments are fully embracing the evisceration of international law, and this points to a dangerous turn in the world, because it means that they are preparing to use such methods themselves in the near future.

 

[IlovethePies]

Here's some light reading for you conducted by 35 independent experts in international law and genocide. It is indeed a genocide and I will keep on using the term.

An Independent Legal Analysis of the Russian Federation’s Breaches of the Genocide Convention in Ukraine

Here's the follow up report a year later:

Updated Report on Russia's Commission of Genocide in Ukraine

Cant say I'm surprised that you find it hard to believe that Russia has trying to eradicate the Ukrainian people and culture, yet have no problem believing and sprouting that taking out a Russian General who is responsible for the use of chemical weapons is a war crime....

Thanks for posting this, I have already read alot and will continue to read through it.

The violence is horrific, the war crimes are horrific

The level of barbarism is in line with the nature of this invasion: Putin carried it out in defence of the wealth and profits of many of the most right wing, corrupt, and fascistic sections of the Russian capitalist class.

I do note that there is no definitive case that has been assembled yet as proof of genocide, unlike for example the case brought against Israel.

One of the proponents of the full genocide claim is Timothy Snyder. Snyder claims to be a historian, and he once was, but now writes historical revisionism designed to cover up the role of the OUN (Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists) in the Nazi Holocaust.

Whenever the NY Times wants to add fuel to its anti-Russia campaign, it routinely interviews Synder who now functions not as a reputable historian but as a propagandist for the US state.

In his book called Bloodlands, written in 2010, there was no mention whatsoever of the OUN, the Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in the extermination of Poles and Jews in Ukraine. This outrageous faslification of history serves to cover up the Ukrainian government's ongoing glorification of Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN.

The OUN’s ideology was shaped by violent anticommunism, ethnic Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Semitism. A May 1941 document by the OUN-B included a paragraph calling for the “clearing” of “hostile elements from the terrain of Ukraine.” It stated, “at a time of chaos and confusion liquidation of undesirable Polish, Muscovite and Jewish activists is permitted, especially supporters of Bolshevik-Muscovite imperialism.”

(One poster here - Mobbs, I think it was - used the term "Muscovite" imperialism in one of his posts, so we can now see the historical source of that particular terminology, ie Ukrainian fascism. )

There are many specialists in the field of Holocaust history who know that Snyder is covering up the history of Ukrainian fascism, but are afraid to speak out because of the prevailing anti-Russia campaign.

Snyder has also falsely claimed that the famine in the USSR in 1932 to 1933 was a deliberate genocide of the Ukrainian population by the Stalinist government. This claim has been rejected by all historians devoted to genuine historical scholarship.

It is no accident that Snyder is one of the leading proponents of the claim that Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine. He directly attributes the cause of the war to Putin's alleged "genocidal nature".

No serious historian would ever attribute WW2 to Hitler's "genocidal nature", even though Hitler did indeed carry out genocide. The causes of war are much deeper and to be found within the economic foundations of society, not in the minds of individual madmen.

So I would regard anything Snyder is claiming or involved in with total skepticism.

 

[IlovethePies]

Can you list the countries the US annilhated and the stooge governments they imposed?

Wow...where do I begin?

Let's start with annihilation of infrastructure and reduction of a society to a more primitive state where US military has directly been involved, along with proxies in some cases:

Korea
Vietnam
Serbia
Iraq
Afghanistan
Libya (and proxies)
Syria (and proxies)
Yemen (and proxies)

Let's now include wars which do not (as yet) involve US troops (publicly at least), but are armed, funded, trained by US military personnel:

Gaza (via its proxy Israel)
Lebanon (via its proxy Israel)
Ukraine (via its proxy Zelensky)

A list of countries where the US has imposed stooge governments:
(where do we start??)

South Korea
South Vietnam (continuing on from where the French left off)
Chile
throughout Latin and South America (operation Condor)
Iran
Iraq
Afghanistan
Ukraine (Maidan coup) and Orange Revolution

There are ongoing attempts by the US currently throughout the border countries of Russia (Georgia, Armenia,) to install governments pro US and pro NATO governments

I know I am missing several, but that's a good start.

 

[Bloods86]

Wow...where do I begin?

Let's start with annihilation of infrastructure and reduction of a society to a more primitive state where US military has directly been involved, along with proxies in some cases:

Korea
Vietnam
Serbia
Iraq
Afghanistan
Libya (and proxies)
Syria (and proxies)
Yemen (and proxies)

Let's now include wars which do not (as yet) involve US troops (publicly at least), but are armed, funded, trained by US military personnel:

Gaza (via its proxy Israel)
Lebanon (via its proxy Israel)
Ukraine (via its proxy Zelensky)

A list of countries where the US has imposed stooge governments:
(where do we start??)

South Korea
South Vietnam (continuing on from where the French left off)
Chile
throughout Latin and South America (operation Condor)
Iran
Iraq
Afghanistan
Ukraine (Maidan coup) and Orange Revolution

There are ongoing attempts by the US currently throughout the border countries of Russia (Georgia, Armenia,) to install governments pro US and pro NATO governments

I know I am missing several, but that's a good start.

I think you fall into the trap of US involvement/support = trying to annihilate a country and install a stooge government, for a bunch of these.

Your characterisation of US involvement in Ukraine (2014 inclusive), Georgia etc is laughable.

But no arguments from me re: criticism of US foreign policy and actions in Vietnam (and Laos, Cambodia), Iraq (2nd war), Afghanistan, support of Saudi Arabia, various coups and de-stabilisation of mostly left-wing Latin/South American governments. While Israel deserves to defend itself with allied support, they should have been cut off by now over their disregard for civilian casualties and attempts to expand the conflict.

 

[IlovethePies]

I

Your characterisation of US involvement in Ukraine (2014 inclusive),

Your denial of this is what is laughable.

 

[Mobbs]

(One poster here - Mobbs, I think it was - used the term "Muscovite" imperialism in one of his posts, so we can now see the historical source of that particular terminology, ie Ukrainian fascism. )

Yes, well, that's a concatenation of two things from me. 1) I argue Russia is imperialist and 2) I commonly refer to (what we now hear is Russia) as Muscovy.

However I don't claim that being a muscovite makes you imperialist. Being imperialist, makes you imperialist - anyone can do it. I only use the term Muscovy/Muscovite to highlight the appropriation of the name Russia, which is based off Rus/Ruthenia - old names for what is now known as Ukraine. It's a useful name mainly only to refute the occasional Russian propaganda that Ukraine doesn't exist, or only exists as a satellite of Russia. Ukrainians will commonly refer to Russia as Muscovy, to remind us of the appropriation of the name.

Muscovite is not an insult. It's now a name for people from Moscow (contacts in SPb would sometimes refer to their friends on Moscow as Muscovites - there is typical inter-city rivaly much like Sydney-Melbourne etc), and historically a name for people from the Principality of Moscow (or the entity that followed directly after prior Russia, can't remember which). As the level of empire expanded, the name changed to Russia to incorporate some classical history found within the Ruthenian past.

(btw Moscow is a super old name, and its derived from the name of the the river, and from memory the only thing they've ever worked out is that it means something about water).

 

[Mobbs]

Ukraine (via its proxy Zelensky)

Ukraine (Maidan coup) and Orange Revolution

A number of accurate ones in there. But you still fail to recognise how you and all the pro-Russian propaganda parrots have been unequivocally corrected on on this dozens of times in these threads.

Ukraine exists. Ukrainians exist*. Ukrainians have agency. If they want to reject someone they don't like - gathering in hundreds of thousands to stand strong in the face of government snipers, only a bigotted viewpoint would claim they are intellectually incapable of doing that without being ... what? mind-controlled?

What's the point of the working class hooking up if you don't believe they have the ability to make their own decisions?

* For the moment, despite Russia's attempts to enforce otherwise.

 

[IlovethePies]

While Israel deserves to defend itself with allied support, they should have been cut off by now over their disregard for civilian casualties and attempts to expand the conflict.

This is not related to this thread, but I coudn't let this go without comment.
There is no element of "self-defence" in any of Israel's actions since the Hamas incursion on Oct 7.

You are once again doing the same thing as you do in regard to the conflict in Ukraine: you ignore the entire history leading up to the event.

Ever since 1948 the Palestinian people have been subjected to physical extermination, mass murder, displacement, dispossession, removal of their livelihood and economic destitution and brutal repression, ...

yet you see Israel's actions as self-defence against yet another "unprovoked" incident

Same method, same flawed conclusions.

 

[Bloods86]

Your denial of this is what is laughable.

I'm not the one presenting the events of 2014 as being US-led, when they were a response to Russian bullying and interference, followed by a multi-prong invasion by Russia and their stooges.

But of course, given your bias in favour of Russia, you won't acknowledge this.

 

[Bloods86]

This is not related to this thread, but I coudn't let this go without comment.
There is no element of "self-defence" in any of Israel's actions since the Hamas incursion on Oct 7.

You are once again doing the same thing as you do in regard to the conflict in Ukraine: you ignore the entire history leading up to the event.

Ever since 1948 the Palestinian people have been subjected to physical extermination, mass murder, displacement, dispossession, removal of their livelihood and economic destitution and brutal repression, ...

yet you see Israel's actions as self-defence against yet another "unprovoked" incident

Same method, same flawed conclusions.

You probably should have let it go, because nowhere did I mention October 7, nowhere did I say that October 7 occurred in a vacuum, and I explicitly gave caveats to any notion of self defence, which I believe Israel has gone far beyond (as it has in the past).

Maybe take the blinkers off, be less disingenuous.

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm not the one presenting the events of 2014 as being US-led, when they were a response to Russian bullying and interference, followed by a multi-prong invasion by Russia and their stooges.

But of course, given your bias in favour of Russia, you won't acknowledge this.

...and that is precisely the point. You claim that exposing facts which don't match the narrative you are wedded to is "bias".

The 2014 Maidan coup was led by the US and Germany with the intention of provoking a confrontation with Russia.

In the immediate aftermath of this coup, -ie, as its immediate consequence - a civil war exploded in the Donbas region, with Russian backed separatists and the US backed Ukrainian army.

US Undersecretary of State for Europe and Asia Victoria Nuland made at least four trips to Kiev, joining the neo-fascist “protesters” and meeting with opposition figures Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk and the notoriously anti-Semitic Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok. She acknowledged in December 2013 that the US had poured $5 billion into Ukraine since the 1990s to build up US proxy forces in the country.

Nuland’s leaked telephone conversation with Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, in which they discussed installing Yatsenyuk after toppling Yanukovich, exposed the degree to which Washington was manipulating events in the country.

This is simply fact.

It is not bias towards anyone.

 

[IlovethePies]

You probably should have let it go, because nowhere did I mention October 7, nowhere did I say that October 7 occurred in a vacuum, and I explicitly gave caveats to any notion of self defence, which I believe Israel has gone far beyond (as it has in the past).

Maybe take the blinkers off, be less disingenuous.

You said that Israel is entitled to "self -defence". I am pointing out that such a position ignores history, which is the same method that you adopt in regard to Ukraine.

 

[Bloods86]

...and that is precisely the point. You claim that exposing facts which don't match the narrative you are wedded to is "bias".

The 2014 Maidan coup was led by the US and Germany with the intention of provoking a confrontation with Russia.

In the immediate aftermath of this coup, -ie, as its immediate consequence - a civil war exploded in the Donbas region, with Russian backed separatists and the US backed Ukrainian army.

US Undersecretary of State for Europe and Asia Victoria Nuland made at least four trips to Kiev, joining the neo-fascist “protesters” and meeting with opposition figures Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk and the notoriously anti-Semitic Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok. She acknowledged in December that the US had poured $5 billion into Ukraine since the 1990s to build up US proxy forces in the country.

Nuland’s leaked telephone conversation with Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, in which they discussed installing Yatsenyuk after toppling Yanukovich, exposed the degree to which Washington was manipulating events in the country.

This is simply fact.

It is not bias towards anyone.

There was no coup in 2014, aside from Russia's coercive attempts to influence Ukrainian policy in its favour, and Russia's initial stages of the coup of significant parts of eastern Ukraine, which eventually was fulfilled. Crimea was obviously a straight up invasion.

If you call heavily framed dishonesty "facts" then that's up to you, but others don't have to accept your nonsense.

 

[Bloods86]

You said that Israel is entitled to "self -defence". I am pointing out that such a position ignores history, which is the same method that you adopt in regard to Ukraine.

I'm not the one glossing over Russia's actions in Ukraine before, during and after 2014, while assigning as much ill-intent to the US/NATO as possible.

 

[IlovethePies]

There was no coup in 2014, aside from Russia's coercive attempts to influence Ukrainian policy in its favour, and Russia's initial stages of the coup of significant parts of eastern Ukraine, which eventually was fulfilled. Crimea was obviously a straight up invasion.

If you call heavily framed dishonesty "facts" then that's up to you, but others don't have to accept your nonsense.

...sorry but if you deny facts it is impossible to have a sensible debate.... Do some research with an open mind, or stay stuck in your current position which makes of you -whether conscious of it or not - a supporter of the US drive to 3rd world war.

 

[Mobbs]

Just a reminder, the entire conspiracy claiming external manufacture of the Maidan coup is built on these words:


Of course we've had this moment a dozen or more times already here. Maybe it should be stickied!

 

[Bloods86]

...sorry but if you deny facts it is impossible to have a sensible debate.... Do some research with an open mind, or stay stuck in your current position which makes of you -whether conscious of it or not - a supporter of the US drive to 3rd world war.

I do have an open mind, which is why I don't start with a simplistic, blanket "America good" or "America bad" viewpoint to a conflict, unlike yourself (the latter view obviously).

I'm therefore able to acknowledge Russia's actions leading to the conflict, perpetuating and escalating it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Just a reminder, the entire conspiracy claiming external manufacture of the Maidan coup is built on these words:
View attachment 2192209

Of course we've had this moment a dozen or more times already here. Maybe it should be stickied!

Wow...thankyou for providing the evidence so graphically. ( I would support it being stickied).

Don't you think it rather revealing that a representative of the US government is discussing with the US ambassador the composition of the next Ukrainian government??? Sounds like Chile to me.

That, combined with Nuland's frequent visits to Kyev, meeting up with the political protagonists involved, and billions of US dollars spent over the previous decade in building up these proxies.

Nothing on this thread has "exposed" anything. It is simply the case that everyone on this thread denies the truth, and refuses to question their own assumptions.

 

[Mobbs]

Wow...thankyou for providing the evidence so graphically.

It's pretty easy to find. It's even in this thread just 3 months back.

 

[IlovethePies]

It's pretty easy to find. It's even in this thread just 3 months back.

Sure. Thanks again, because it supports my contention, not yours.

 

[Mobbs]

Sure. Thanks again, because it supports my contention, not yours.

Welcome.

 

[IlovethePies]

^ "Muscovite imperialism" was a term used by the Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in ethnic cleansing in Ukraine and in the Holocaust.

This is the cesspool of political filth from which you are drawing your ideas.

 

[Mobbs]

^ "Muscovite imperialism" was a term used by the Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in ethnic cleansing in Ukraine and in the Holocaust.

This is the cesspool of political filth from which you are drawing your ideas.

The term "Muscovy" predates the Holocaust by a couple hundred years.

 

[IlovethePies]

The term "Muscovy" predates the Holocaust by a couple hundred years.

Not the term "Muscovite imperialism" though.