Bluemour Discussion Thread III

[Iamcarlton]

Thats exactly what I dont want. No fast tracking the rebuild and no Carlton of Old.

Short cuts and Carlton of Old is what got us into this mess.

We spend the next 3-4 years acquiring 5-6 x A grade mids (with at least one being elite), 1 more 60 goal plus KPF, and 1 A grade ruck. We do this via the draft primarily so the players selected are hitting their straps from 2021 onwards.

Any trades (instead of drafts) must be 24 and under this year (so they can contribute when the window opens). Next year 25 and under. In 2019, they should be 26 and under (and F/A enters the equation to plug any holes that we failed to fill via the draft).

We trade out (or let go of) Gibbs and Kruezer for extra draft picks. Murphy and Simmo can stay for experience and leadership. Cripps to take over when Murph goes (circa 2020 when we're first pushing for the eight).

Ýep sounds good only difference now imo is that weve drafted and traded in 2 years the amount of youngsters that it would have taken us 5 years or more in the past . Hence the fast tracking statement . Either way imo it'll all fall into place nicely . But dont be surprised if we go a chasing the big ticket items sooner than you think .
Cheers

.

 

[Moe B]

No.

Comparing their output and salaries. Can't have 20 Dylan Shiel's on a list, salary cap won't allow it.

Simple comparison of statistics show Ed is a few tackles a game ahead and a few disposals behind but with better efficiency.

Debate worth having over value as we have to pay the minimum salary somehow. If we don't chase a FA, someone needs to get paid more.

Probably should read the previous posts for context before jumping in.

BTW, Ed is on an AFL list because he adds value to a team. Saying he doesn't belong says more about you than him.

This isn't about me, I read enough regardless of original context. And regardless of what the salaries are my opinion is that Curnow shouldn't be on a list, which top 8 team would he get a game at?? This is the reason we are not competitive, because we have players like that, his possies are nowhere near as damaging as shiels... doesn't kick goals and can barely hit a 25 metre pass!! He works hard I'll give him that but just becuase he is cheap doesn't mean that we're winning... He's really just taking up space we should be giving to a youngster like Cuningham!!

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

This isn't about me, I read enough regardless of original context. And regardless of what the salaries are my opinion is that Curnow shouldn't be on a list, which top 8 team would he get a game at?? This is the reason we are not competitive, because we have players like that, his possies are nowhere near as damaging as shiels... doesn't kick goals and can barely hit a 25 metre pass!! He works hard I'll give him that but just becuase he is cheap doesn't mean that we're winning... He's really just taking up space we should be giving to a youngster like Cuningham!!

Curnow would be on any list in the AFL. He's a defensive midfielder, so of course his possessions aren't going to as damaging as an offensive midfielder. He averages 7 tackles a game and has huge numbers in pressure acts. His opponent is always held accountable. Every coach in the league values that immensely and would play him (Maybe except the top two or three).

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

This isn't about me, I read enough regardless of original context. And regardless of what the salaries are my opinion is that Curnow shouldn't be on a list, which top 8 team would he get a game at?? This is the reason we are not competitive, because we have players like that, his possies are nowhere near as damaging as shiels... doesn't kick goals and can barely hit a 25 metre pass!! He works hard I'll give him that but just becuase he is cheap doesn't mean that we're winning... He's really just taking up space we should be giving to a youngster like Cuningham!!

To be fair, his disposal improved last year. Been a worry in the JLT again.

Genuine question. How many would you have in the gun to be delisted before him? Reckon I could name a dozen.

 

[Juddafideslenko]

Have you not been listenting to Bolton the last two years?

We are on a journey. Green shoots. Yada Yada.

We are not going to be challenging for a flag at any time over the next 3-4 years (Fyfes playing career). Not only would it be impossible to assemble a flag capable list in that time (considering where we are coming from) doing so would involve trades, and artificially inflating our ladder position on the back of a gun player who wont be there when the window does open.

Look at GWS. You think we are any chance of assembling a team capable of knocking them off any time soon?

We are better served using those 3-4 years sitting back, assembling a list capable of sustained success post GWS (2021-2025 and onwards). Stockpiling draft picks, building talented depth all over the park, picking off free agents and want-away players from the expansion teams and interstate clubs squeezed out, and selectively targeting free agents who will be at the peak of their powers during the 2021-2025 window.

Getting games into the kids. Getting them to that magical 50-100-150 game mark, playing together as a team, used to the game plan and structures and each other, all as the 2021 window opens.

Repeat after me: We wont be challenging till 2021 onwards, and wont make the eight till 2020. We need a team with talent all across the park, and young enough that they are in the peak of their powers from 2021-2025 to ensure the best possible chance of a flag.

Everything from now till then is the Journey. Be happy with 'green shoots'. If you expect anything else, you are going to be bitterly disappointed.

He also said that we're a club in a hurry.

All due respect, but you're guessing mate.
It's all so matter of fact with you when it's clearly not so.
Anything can happen.
Kids win flags too.

Your opinion is your opinion. not gospel.

 

[Moe B]

To be fair, his disposal improved last year. Been a worry in the JLT again.

Genuine question. How many would you have in the gun to be delisted before him? Reckon I could name a dozen.

There are a few to say the least, but he's with them and I don't beleive tagging is the way to go anymore (really that's all his good at) Shouldn't we be taking leaves out of all the good teams styles and gameplans? Clearly most of the great teams don't tag and try to hurt with pace, smarts and skill, which one of those does he possess... It's just my opinion at the end of the day!!

 

[Jabba73]

This isn't about me, I read enough regardless of original context. And regardless of what the salaries are my opinion is that Curnow shouldn't be on a list, which top 8 team would he get a game at?? This is the reason we are not competitive, because we have players like that, his possies are nowhere near as damaging as shiels... doesn't kick goals and can barely hit a 25 metre pass!! He works hard I'll give him that but just becuase he is cheap doesn't mean that we're winning... He's really just taking up space we should be giving to a youngster like Cuningham!!

We are not a top 8 side, nothing to do with Ed.

He is exactly the reason we are competitive. His work rate and willingness to sacrifice his game to play a role the team needs keeps us in games for longer. Without him we get smashed.

He is not a game breaker, he prevents the opposition game breakers from killing us. Until we find enough game breakers if our own to go head to head with the best midfields, we need him to help us break even.

The youngsters like Cuningham may go past him, but they haven't ... yet. Once again, not Ed's fault and certainly no excuse/reason for saying he is not good enough to play AFL.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

There are a few to say the least, but he's with them and I don't beleive tagging is the way to go anymore (really that's all his good at) Shouldn't we be taking leaves out of all the good teams styles and gameplans? Clearly most of the great teams don't tag and try to hurt with pace, smarts and skill, which one of those does he possess... It's just my opinion at the end of the day!!

Ed ranked 6th for average tackles per game in the comp last season, amongst the top 20 for tackle average he had an above average number of inside 50's, above average goal assists, first in disposal efficiency and first in rebound 50s. Has a huge tank with his TOG % only behind Parker on that list... Players in that 20 include zorko, parker, shuey, priddis, viney, thompson, sloane, shiels, rockliff, cripps, crouch and treloar.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

There are a few to say the least, but he's with them and I don't beleive tagging is the way to go anymore (really that's all his good at) Shouldn't we be taking leaves out of all the good teams styles and gameplans? Clearly most of the great teams don't tag and try to hurt with pace, smarts and skill, which one of those does he possess... It's just my opinion at the end of the day!!

We absolutely should and I'm sure we will. Nothing wrong with your opinion, I see where you're coming from. I just think Ed is safe for at least a couple more seasons, if not 3 or 4.

Not what you'd want to happen obviously but I just think we have far more pressing concerns regarding our bottom 15 or so players, all good.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Dylan Shiel Vs Ed Curnow last year. Look how similar they are, note Ed lays far more tackles, has a better disposal efficiency and spends far longer on the field. I just don't see Shiel as a gun, he's surrounded by guns and has plenty of guns to rotate with so he doesn't get as tired. Think he's a good midfielder made to look exceptional in an exceptional team.

View attachment 347259

And that was my point to the ed bashers ...... funny when you read them in black and white. Kinda takes the BS away doesn't it?

 

[Moe B]

We are not a top 8 side, nothing to do with Ed.

He is exactly the reason we are competitive. His work rate and willingness to sacrifice his game to play a role the team needs keeps us in games for longer. Without him we get smashed.

He is not a game breaker, he prevents the opposition game breakers from killing us. Until we find enough game breakers if our own to go head to head with the best midfields, we need him to help us break even.

The youngsters like Cuningham may go past him, but they haven't ... yet. Once again, not Ed's fault and certainly no excuse/reason for saying he is not good enough to play AFL.

You make good points, but it doesn't change my mind about trying to find a replacement, especially if we're trying to be a decent team... Good teams play team defence, not single tags. I don't think we've worked that out yet!! We don't need any defensive type mids, you need to be an allrounder and Curnow certainly cannot do that...

 

[Moe B]

We absolutely should and I'm sure we will. Nothing wrong with your opinion, I see where you're coming from. I just think Ed is safe for at least a couple more seasons, if not 3 or 4.

Not what you'd want to happen obviously but I just think we have far more pressing concerns regarding our bottom 15 or so players, all good.

Agreed

 

[Metalcrusher]

I think that last season proves he is learning to do exactly that. For the start of his career, he was stifled into being a blanketing/defensive/tagger. If you cant see that his game changed last year, you are blind.

 

[Dramoth]

We basically started building a list from scratch commencing in 2015 (Plus Cripps and Docherty).

Everyone added to the list before 2015 (again barring Cripps and Docherty) is surplus to our needs going forwards. They are either placeholders, or simply marking time to stop our kids from getting smashed.

Our drafting history from 2008 to 2014 is grim reading at best. Seven years in a row and we have b*gger all to show for it, other than Patrick Cripps, and four players who can largely be described as depth at best and will likely mostly be delisted within the next one to two years

Our trading history over the same period is nearly as bad.

This optimistic bullsh*t I see from time to time really irks me. Being realistic with where we're at and getting on board with the 'Green shoots' program is the only way to bring this club back to greatness.

I can't begrudge a supporter from being positive. But if we don't learn from our history, we will be doomed to repeat it.

Outside of our first round picks in 2005, 2006, and 2007... our drafting has still been very average!

 

[agro]

Outside of our first round picks in 2005, 2006, and 2007... our drafting has still been below average!

Edited for accuracy

 

[bmaurizio]

So following this theory any quality young player we try to attract will automatically have a reduce impact upon joining CFC because current personal.
Therefore useless to try and add some talent that's 3 to 5 years in the system?
The reality is we'll be shedding at least 10 to 15 players in the next 2years and Ed will be one of them, a great servant of the club but lacing required skill level, no bashing just the reality we need to get a move on.
We'll be hunting at least 1 to 2 FA , pending on opportunities.

 

[bmaurizio]

Outside of our first round picks in 2005, 2006, and 2007... our drafting has still been very average!

Agree we squandered a decade and supporters are frustrated and bitter.
Fortunately at long last , we're now moving in a positive direction.
Brodie and Silvagni have plenty to do in next 2 to 3 years hope the get it right.

 

[Metalcrusher]

So following this theory any quality young player we try to attract will automatically have a reduce impact upon joining CFC because current personal.
Therefore useless to try and add some talent that's 3 to 5 years in the system?
The reality is we'll be shedding at least 10 to 15 players in the next 2years and Ed will be one of them, a great servant of the club but lacing required skill level, no bashing just the reality we need to get a move on.
We'll be hunting at least 1 to 2 FA , pending on opportunities.

Every team needs durable hard working foot soldiers, you cannot have stars on every line unless you have COLA and prime picking concessions.

You are dreaming if you think Ed won't be there at the end of the 2018 season. He will be 29 in Nov 2018.

 

[Manchego Cheese]

Ed Curnow falls into the category of so many others on our list (Casboult, White, Armfield, Rowe): good, honest triers who get a game because they give it their all and are reasonably diligent when it comes to tactics. When we've players who push them out of first 18 contention we'll be getting better.

I couldn't be bothered reading the whole discussion, but surely posters aren't favorably comparing Ed to Dylan Shiel? Surely not.

 

[F_therest]

Outside of our first round picks in 2005, 2006, and 2007... our drafting has still been very average!

Astounding to think Hughes lasted as long as he did, when basically the only picks that worked out for us were the 3 x #1 picks which anyone here could have picked simply by reading the newspaper...as soon as he actually had to do his own work the picks were busts.

Such an indictment that after Murphy & Gibbs, there is basically a gap right up to Cripps in 2013 where we didn't add any further talent to our midfield through the draft...except Curnow who did it the hard way via rookie. That's 8 years or so...

 

[Dramoth]

Dodoro stitched us up there - he actually called Boekhurst before the draft to say that Essendon were going to take him, Boekhurst told Shane Rogers and Rogers fell for the three card trick.

Dodoro was never going to take Boekhurst, but played Rogers for the sucker and ended up with Laverde.

We ended up with the shaft.

Essendon were never going to take Boekhorst. In fact... I can pretty much assure you that they never contacted him. The only clubs openly talking about him were the West Coast and Carlton.

Source: His family.

 

[Dramoth]

2019 Team:

FB: Byrne -- Marchbank -- Plowman
HB: Docherty -- Macreadie -- Weitering

C: Petrovski-Seton -- Cripps -- Shiel
R: Kreuzer -- CCurnow -- Fyfe

HF: Pickett -- Lynch -- JSilvagni
FF: BSilvagni -- McKay -- Murphy

Int: Gibbs -- Fisher -- Cuningham -- LeBois
Emg: Polson -- Williamson -- Worpel

Swap Gibbs with Worpel and you might have that right

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Ed Curnow falls into the category of so many others on our list (Casboult, White, Armfield, Rowe): good, honest triers who get a game because they give it their all and are reasonably diligent when it comes to tactics. When we've players who push them out of first 18 contention we'll be getting better.

I couldn't be bothered reading the whole discussion, but surely posters aren't favorably comparing Ed to Dylan Shiel? Surely not.

Read it and inform yourself.

 

[TooBlue14]

This curnow argument has returned. The data is there. Read back and you will find many pro arguments for curnow. Because we undervalue him and remember the tagging days where that's all he did. In 2016 he was top 3 statistically for nearly every midfield stat on our list. The curnow bashing should stop. Statistically better than Shiel. If the top 20 mids in the comp he has the best disposal efficiency, ranked one of the best in tackles, high on clearances, and whenever matched up to a gun opposition playing he brings them down 20-50% in what they regularly contribute all while continuing to be highly consistent in his own game. If we had 5 curnows id pick all of them before Sheil.

 

[RAPPA]

Curnow tends to immobilise a quality midfielder from the opposition as well as doing his own bit. Enough said. The Ed detractors can GAGF.