Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun

[SkyhorseTamer]

Christian Petracca is a better player than Harry McKay.

Ask any neutral. Google any 'top 50 players in the AFL' list.

I love Harry, but if Im picking a side as a neutral, and can only have one of them, Im taking Petracca.

Especially if I already have Curnow and Cripps in the side.

I didn't realise player rankings had anything to do with picking a best team. What a nonsense argument.


Petracca was apparently told there was a real chance he wouldn't survive one of his spleen surgeries. Aside from how horrific that is for him and adds more to why he's so done with Melbourne - that's a ****ing ridiculous mountain to climb mentally. go ask Johnathon Trott what happened when he started worrying about his health facing Mitch Johnson. His career ended... Flinching. Done.

 

[macky99]

Spot on.
No team has no flexibility. If a team really wants Petracca, it will get done.

It is actually about the cost vs benefit of doing the deal, which at his age 29 immediately rules out most clubs.
lf Trac was 25 more clubs would be willing, alot to give up with only 2-3 good years left.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

There is zero medical evidence that it will impact him in the slightest going forward (other than possibly delaying his preseason next year).

All available medical evidence and the opinion of medical people on here that I trust (The Old Dark Navy's ) suggest strongly quite the opposite.

To add to the last quote. You don't know the full extent of his injuries, surgical complications and all other manor of factors involved in this. Literally cannot predict his scope for recovery. Could be full could not

 

[mochacinolatte]

Christian Petracca is a better player than Harry McKay.

Ask any neutral. Google any 'top 50 players in the AFL' list.

I love Harry, but if Im picking a side as a neutral, and can only have one of them, Im taking Petracca.

Especially if I already have Curnow and Cripps in the side.

They play in different position idk how they are comparable.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

Cincotta
Fantasia
Cerra
B Camporeale
L Camporeale
Silvagni
Pittonet
Petracca

Mamma Mia!

 

[ESKIE]

Ehh, I think that all sounds overblown to me. It was conversation from a podcast, do you think he's going to sit on a podcast and say "i'm fine, nothing can hurt me". People don't like that, they see it as arrogance.

Haven't we all overplayed how we're feeling to match people's concern for us before in our lives? It's awkward for someone to say "oh my god, how are you, are you okay" and go, "i'm completely fine, harden up". No we all say "yeah, gosh it's been tough but i'm getting better".

I suspect inside he's likely feeling a lot more positive. As he said in that interview, it wasn't the injury that scared him the most, it was his partner being called at 3am and being told he was in a critical condition that upset him.

IMO it’s too risky his injuries where horrific

 

[DangerousD]

Haven’t any examples to go off but, has there ever been a player who has managed to get his contract terminated due to any reasons?

Could Petracca for example go to Fairwork and say his employer failed in their duty of care, put him in a life threatening position and led to major injuries that nearly killed him?

What’s the threshold for a player being able to get out of a contract?

 

[WalshYouLegend]

Cincotta
Fantasia
Cerra
B Camporeale
L Camporeale
Silvagni
Pittonet
Petracca

Mamma Mia!

 

[Crippa#9]

Cincotta
Fantasia
Cerra
B Camporeale
L Camporeale
Silvagni
Pittonet
Petracca

Mamma Mia!

 

[bigblueboy]

Haven’t any examples to go off but, has there ever been a player who has managed to get his contract terminated due to any reasons?

Could Petracca for example go to Fairwork and say his employer failed in their duty of care, put him in a life threatening position and led to major injuries that nearly killed him?

What’s the threshold for a player being able to get out of a contract?

That's a legal minefield ... what I would say is that Petracca might be at the point of standing out of footy instead of playing at Melbourne. Demons can say all they want about not trading him - ultimately they are in a poor bargaining position because of mismanagement on multiple fronts.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

There's no Murphy slander around these parts please and thank you

Not trying to slander Murphy here, but I think we can all agree Cripps is levels above.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Murphy at his best was a superstar, he only hit his straps for a season or two and was never the same after Danger destroyed his shoulder

I agree with the rest of your assertion but I just think a lot of people underrate Marc Murphy

Of course Murphy at his best was a superstar too... but we brought Judd in for 2008, Murphy's 3rd season...

 

[BringFevBack2021]

To add to the last quote. You don't know the full extent of his injuries, surgical complications and all other manor of factors involved in this. Literally cannot predict his scope for recovery. Could be full could not

There’s a study on this that concluded BSI’s all have similar recovery times no matter the severity but return to play is different

Lloyd was 206 days between injury and playing again

No precedent, can’t predict scope for recovery in full granted as all injuries are different of course but I am confident based on my cursory readings of a couple of studies as a layman (I.e. not a medical professional) that he will be OK

 

[Matty411]

That's a legal minefield ... what I would say is that Petracca might be at the point of standing out of footy instead of playing at Melbourne. Demons can say all they want about not trading him - ultimately they are in a poor bargaining position because of mismanagement on multiple fronts.

Hey, if we come out winners as a result without having to give up the world... beautiful.

 

[Blue1980]

We need a partner for Weitering big time because him covering for Young AND McGovern is getting tired.
We also need a forwards coach who has a clue about how best to use Charlie/harry/TDK/Kemp/ - but we need a genuine small with leg speed and a brain to compliment the talls.

We dont need Haynes which everyone is excited about - he is at his best a poor man's third tall - when he can actually stay on the park which isnt often.

We dont need Petracca - Austin scored big time with Lord for example- plenty of young kids out there that can be identified to add to depth and growth. I's stoked with Lord's capability as a 19 year old - has exceeded expectations big time- - Carrol showed lot in teh last two weeks as well- although he looks to be another fragile body. Cincotta has been the quiet choiever this year for Carlton - twice the player he was last year and getting better - same for Olliw been one of our best in the last few weklks every week.

All Carlton needs to do is keep doing what it has been doing and hopefully cop less injuries going forward.

In my perfect world we ditch ALL the fragile players - not just a few - in my book that would include McGovern.

This. Our last 3 years have been basically the same as the Bulldogs last 3 years performance wise, wasn't like they got in a mad panic looking to trade out Naughton or something.

Another KPD, more outside run or a goalkicking small forward would be high on our list of needs.

We have had the 2nd most games missed to injury of any side this year, and have still made the 8. The Swans had a bad run with injury last year and ended up in a similar boat to where we are now.

Replace Martin, Marchy, Cuningham and S Durdin, with guys who are simply available each week even if they are at the standard of Lewis Young, would automatically make us a better team.

That combined with hopefully a better fitness program and some good luck with injury, no radical changes are needed or make any sense.

 

[Ezayyak]

Not comfortable with the idea after ensuring that we have managed to sign our star players to long term deals, which Harry is one, in which they have shown loyalty to the club, then we go trade him. Don't think it's a culturally good thing.

 

[Blue1980]

Murphy at his best was a superstar, he only hit his straps for a season or two and was never the same after Danger destroyed his shoulder

I agree with the rest of your assertion but I just think a lot of people underrate Marc Murphy

Correct on Murph, never really the same after that Danger hit in 2012. People forget how good he was at his best, and even after that still a very good player.

People just harsh on him as he was around in a crap side and he was a leader, so try to pin it all on him. (like in sides containing O'Shea, Mullet, Sumner, Kerridge, Matt Shaw, SPS, Setters etc he should of been dragging us to finals)

 

[jj1978]

Can I say I am bemused by the massive elephant in the room.

I understand the other reasons for Trac wanting out of Melbourne but it's pretty well stated that the numero uno reason has been their mishandling of his injury.

If this is true....

Then why the absolute hell would he want to come to Carlton who have been mismanaging and mishandling players health matters for the better part of twenty years.

Other than Charlie Curnow and his knee (and there's enough chapters in that to write a book) who was the last player that we've had with significant health issues that has come all of the day back without suffering reinjury?

You can write a whole other book on players who have had one major injury and subsequently become injury prone - players who's careers have been destroyed by reinjury. Of course not all of it can be placed on the club but we've got a whole lot more than our fair share that there's a pattern.

And because there's a pattern there I feel like the club buying into Petracca is buying into a bill of goods that may never be possible to fill.

Someone compared getting Petracca to when we signed Chris Judd. Other than both being big names and both having had serious injuries before acquisition (Judd and his famous shoulders) there's a massive difference. Judd was in the prime of his athletic career and unless disaster struck had years ahead of him.

Petracca is a half decade older in an era where the level of professionalism has skyrocketed. Even if Petracca gets back to thr peak of what will be his new athletic health (and from what I've heard is that he has been cleared for cardio since my first comments on the rehabilitation which is huge as it's a massive gateway marker) the end comes a lot more quickly these days than what it used to.

The high likelihood is that the Petracca we would get in 2025 is likely to be the peak of his physical performance. Even if he sustains for longer than most you're not going to get the same level of player every year. It doesn't work like that.

If Melbourne does sell Petracca it will extract the absolute highest value for him. He is the centrepiece of their entire list. He's got a squeaky clean image on and off the field, has no mental health or drug issues, no major character flaws or issues (that we know of) and is their most marketable player with years left in his career (who knows how long Gawn has left, he's given them his soul).

I'm just not sold on the dream with Petracca when it comes down to including one of our cornerstones who has given the club it's loyalty. I have no doubt that Petracca would give this football club the absolute best he can but I'm not sold that our football club can say and do the same in return when history paints a very clear picture that we don't manage significant injuries well.

And that is why I'm dead set against including a McKay (injury prone himself) level talent back and would only accept a non-Cripps and Walsh midfielder with Cerrs (and those hamstrings) being the preferred trade.

When it comes down to it it's more of an us, it's not a him issue.

Because Carlton likes to hoard and show faith in injured players and perhaps Trac is never going to come good, so we're a safe haven.

 

[jj1978]

Trac is a game winning super star, he still wouldn’t fix what’s wrong with us and would set us back massively.
Personally I think it’s time for us to be bold & get a trade massively right or disastrously wrong - if u can turn Harry/Charlie into 2 very good players (young quick mid/forward & a key back) I think the sum total of 2 very good players outweighs 1 key forward.
If having 2 gun tall forwards was going to work for us - we would have seen it already.
Yes they have beat up on crap teams but it’s not like they are an unstoppable force most weeks - on paper they should be, but the reality is it hasn’t worked that way.

True they've not come on for the most part bar a few streaks here and there, but when one is injured we have the other as back-up somewhat. We give away one now, if the remaining one gets injured we're in Kemp and Kennedy as FF/CHF territory.

 

[jj1978]

And why the F would Harry even agree to it? Is he not getting game time for us? Have we not looked after him? Are our facilities sub-par? Is our coach a gambler and drug user?

If you're Harry/Charlie why would you leave us after all the hard yards to get us to some form of contention to go to the bin fire that is ensuing at Demonland?

 

[Red Bull]

The topic of the day :
Like most here, my initial reaction to H for Petracca was .. no bloody way !!
After a lot of thought and discussion, I’m now of the belief that it is indeed the way to go for Carlton.
Carlton needs to be relevant again.
We’ve been too long in the football wilderness.
We need to win a premiership with this group … we need 17 !!
Working backwards from there, the obvious question for me is, can this group win a premiership without a beastmode Cripps leading the charge?
The answer for me is no, but he is going to need some serious help.
Beastmode Cripps probably has 2 seasons left, 3 at a stretch which would take Charlie, Weitering and Harry to 30yo in any case.
So for mine, we have a 3 year window to get the job done.
Beastmode Petracca fits this timeline perfectly and is exactly the crucial piece we are missing.
Recent history shows that the explosive goal kicking midfielder is now the driving force in footy and usually delivers the Norm Smith medalist these days.
Dusty and Danger, DeGoey and Petracca himself have all been “the man” with this season, Heeney, Worner, Horne-Francis, Raynor or Bont likely to feature.
Again, my initial reaction was … Charlie can’t carry the forward line alone !!
The reality is, he doesn’t have to.
There’s not much Harry can do that TDK can’t and I’d wager that the King is more aggressive in nature.
Both physically imposing, athletic left footers who can seriously clunk the sherrin.
Kemp shaping nicely as the 3rd banana.
“But we’ll miss the Kings groundwork around the stoppage” I hear you say …
With Cripps, Petracca, Walsh and a fit Cerra in play, I say it won’t be necessary.
History is also littered with premiership teams that run a blue collar ruckman.
Ruckman traditionally don’t win grand finals, their role is to deliver a physical presence and contest for their team, something that the best of Pittonet is capable of.
So we’re now all in on 17 within the 3 year Cripps/Petracca beastmode window.
Houston : again fits this timeline perfectly and apparently wants Carlton.
Aleer : would be a great fit and has apparently been approached.
Hewett becomes expensive backup so could be traded to North who are in the market for a professional, hard nosed, experienced midfielder (Viney) to assist their developing young midfield.
Owies and perhaps Martin would yield some trade return.
Marchbank, Cuningham and S.Durdin moved on for list spots and a little salary cap relief.

In : Petracca
Out : McKay

In : Houston
Out : 2024 1st and 2nd rounder

In : Aleer
Out : 2025 1st rounder

In : Campo x 2
Out : trade returns on Hewett, Owies, Martin and existing 2024 3rd rounders.

So for the sake of the discussion we now have :

Saad Weitering McGovern
Houston Aleer Cowan
Walsh Cripps Acres
Hollands TDK Williams
Motlop Curnow Kemp

Pittonet Petracca Cerra

Docherty Hollands Kennedy Durdin Cincotta

I recall Scott promising Dangerfield that the club would do everything possible to strive for a premiership.
In the background, no doubt Cook was doing his thing and Cameron was delivered to get the job done.
At Carlton, Cripps is the key and the driving force towards 17.
With Cook again in the background doing his thing, maybe Petracca will be delivered to again get the job done.
Going all the way back to Barrassi, Carlton have always chased the best to be the best.
Sticks, Braddles and Rhys in 87
Diesel in 95
It’s the Carlton DNA
Perhaps we need to embrace it rather than fight it in the pursuit of 17

To those that didn’t have either the time or ability to reply to this post with anything other than a red thumb, i ask you the one question that was the crux of the post.

Do you believe this group can win a premiership without beastmode Cripps leading the charge ?

If your answer is yes, I’d love you to explain how ?

If your answer is no, surely you must agree that we have 2/3 years to land a premiership and this now mature group has as yet failed to even reach top 4 status meaning more than likely, if nothing changes … nothing changes …

 

[HarryFlashman]

True they've not come on for the most part bar a few streaks here and there, but when one is injured we have the other as back-up somewhat. We give away one now, if the remaining one gets injured we're in Kemp and Kennedy as FF/CHF territory.

That’s where development comes in and having kids getting primed to step up - sadly that’s not exactly the case for us

 

[jj1978]

Tracs best play, because he or management are throwing these 'ideas' around hoping something may entice Melbourne to consider it, is for him to go to Saint Kilda. Ross has already said they want to strengthen their midfield post our game. Max King

12

Max King

Age

24

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

needs out of that place and a fresh start. Overall Trac ends up where he should've in the first place and Melbourne get their new forward who will not be stifled under Ross's uber defensive gameplan.

 

[Stamos]

To those that didn’t have either the time or ability to reply to this post with anything other than a red thumb, i ask you the one question that was the crux of the post.

Do you believe this group can win a premiership without beastmode Cripps leading the charge ?

If your answer is yes, I’d love you to explain how ?

If your answer is no, surely you must agree that we have 2/3 years to land a premiership and this now mature group has as yet failed to even reach top 4 status meaning more than likely, if nothing changes … nothing changes …

Yes.
Beastmode Walsh, TDK, Charlie, H, Weiters

The things we most need to change to improve our chances of flags is fitness of the list, tall defender depth, and some speed through the midfield and half-forward.

 

[TrueQldBlue]

On paper they are a formidable force & everyone is rightfully jealous.
The way we play- not so much, if they were so unstoppable we wouldn’t get stopped so consistently!
I’m looking at this from the view that Voss isn’t going anywhere & even thou the pieces are there, we haven’t developed a style or structure to use them both to the full advantage.
To get maximum return u need to give up something that really hurts.
Personally I’d like to see us play a free flowing, attacking brand of footy with both of them leading up away from each other and causing havoc & piling on a score.
If we haven’t done it yet I can’t see it happening & happy to look at other ways to build the side.

Yep totally agree, but I wasn't going down the game plan track....as our game plan shits me ...
I was talking on a purely player approach.

Our game plan consists of kicking long to a contest and hope for the best... As I said ...it shits me.

I see teams ( even wet toast ) kicking out of the backline to a player, then player...etc.
Like a good game of basketball etc...

Please don't start me on our shit game plan....every team could consistently kick to contests and get a 50/50 outcome and pat yourself on the back and think it works ..
Grrrrr

On CPH2135 using BigFooty.com mobile app