- Dec 9, 2015
- 7,944
- 13,664
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Isaac SmithYes, but he is THE most successful current player.
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
- Start date
- Tagged users None
The eye test says to me Martin is amazing and legendary.
You're a good poster Noid.
Just goes to show how good Hodge was to be on that list, when he played a a fair portion of his career in defence.
Also shows how overrated, Judd is.
3 Norm Smiths
Also...
Martin went back to back Norm Smiths, Geelong has never done so in its history.
I have to say I admire Hodge's grand finals more.
He put Hawthorn on his back for 2008 to take down a team that had one of the all-time seasons to that point, the defending premiers too. Ablett was unbelievable that day too but the winners rightly took the spoils. Both performances would take out almost every Norm Smith medal this century. Hodge was a rebounding, contested, rock of Gibraltar making a series of crucial spoils throughout the day as well.
2014 I rated that Sydney side pretty highly. Premiers two years earlier, decent favourites heading into the day, peak Buddy at the helm. 35 disposals, 14 score involements(!), 2 goals and an assist from midfield is most people's definition of running the show.
He was great in 2015 too with 30 disposals, 500 plus metres gained and a goal and an assist - but it was Mitchell and Cyril's day.
As far as Ablett, his quiet grand final was in 2007 where it was a walk in the park anyway. He'd carried the team to a nail biting prelim win in the "real" grand final a week earlier. 2008 was incredible, but you can't deny Hodge his medal with that performance. 2009 Ablett was involved in 5 goals under a heavy tag including the match winner on a wet, tight day; only one midfielder had more disposals, only one midfielder had more inside 50s. It was simply a day where what happened in the 50s decided the match. No Norm Smiths but hardly a stick to beat him over with: multiple League MVPs, Coaches Awards, B&Fs and a Brownlow in premiership years is a fair swing at it.
H00t
Norm Smith Medallist
- Sep 28, 2019
- 5,553
- 9,947
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Just to add to Hodges performance in 2008. His ribs were stuffed from the PF. I can’t remember if it was ever confirmed but I’d be incredibly surprised if they weren’t broken.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 7,037
- 26,582
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Martin was the only player to do it in the shortened quarters of 2020. And as goals dry up for mids it has only been done 10 times from 2020-2023 - Martin owns 3 of the 10. Bont owns 2. 5 shared by other players.
Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 7,037
- 26,582
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Judd was a superstar at Eagles. He was never quite the same player at Carlton due to his groin issues. He was still a star, but he’d lost his ridiculous explosive speed, so he became more of a contested beast rather than an inside/outside mid who’d explode constantly from stoppage.
Given a mids best years are generally 26-30yo, then the mind boggles as to what he would have produced if he retained his explosive speed he had at Eagles.
Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
- Sep 15, 2011
- 33,434
- 52,364
- AFL Club
- West Coast
Is this from the website Oddly Specifically Data?#1 in the competition for disposals in the forward line.
#1 for groundball gets in F50.
#1 for contested possessions in forward line.
** 23 possession average the most by a forward line player ever recorded in the 18-years CD have been keeping stats based on position played.
#4 ranked forward in the competition.
#7 in competition for score involvements.
“The guy is a freak to be doing what he’s doing”
To my knowledge Daniel Hoyne isn’t a Richmond supporter.
As they say, without data we are all just flogs with an opinion.
Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
.But you can't judge great playes on "what if's" based on their injuries. This can be the difference sometimes.
That;s why I rated Judd the last out of the Big 6. His West Coast years were the best, His Carlton years were the worst because due to injuries he became a Ball winning 25 Possesion 0.5 goal mid rather than the damaging 1 goal/per game mid. Still good enough to win a brownlow though.
I'm not going to feed the baiting and will probably be my last post in the thread.
And as i've consistantly pointed out I rate martin higher than most neutral supporters , but i rate Gaz Jnr and Voss higher than Dusty, but rate Dusty higher than Hird, Buckley, Judd, Goodes, Riccuito , Pednles etc.
while yes, Gaz jnr didn't win a norm Smith, his performance in Grand Finals and Finals are very good as pointed out by numerous posters. And he won 2 premeirships. So He's a very good finals performer.
Gaz Jnr won 5 MVP awards and Two Brownlows -generally regarded as the best player in the game from 2007-2014 8 years. Martin didn't have such a long stretch. At best 2017-2020.
Gaz jnr reached heights Martin never did. He had 5 seasons of 30 disposals and 1 goal per game. Two at Geelong (including one premiership winning season) 3 at Gold Coast. Something Martin never did. Only time Martin had 30+ possies he could not even kick 0.5 goas per game.
Gaz jnr has had a higher peak for a longer period as Martin , and has had very consistent seasons for roughly the same period as Martin.
5 seasons of 30 + 1
2 seasons of 25+ 1
1 season of 20+1
1 season of 18+1 as a forward in a lower possesion era (easily equivalent to 20+ 1 today)
2 seasons of 30+ 0.5
1 season of 25+0.5
12 elite seasons .
Chris Judd's better 'lesser' years at Carlton:
2009 - 2nd in Coaches Award, 2nd in Brownlow Medal, 3rd in AFLPA MVP, Carlton B&F
2010 - 5th in Coaches Award, Winner Brownlow Medal, Carlton B&F
2011 - 2nd in Coaches Award, 6th in Brownlow Medal (started odds on favourite), Winner AFLPA MVP.
And these were apparently his lesser years?
This is why he shouldn't be spoken about in the same breath as Martin.
I really enjoy hearing thoughts from theasian on these topics, but for the Judd thing I disagree. I think sometimes his Carlton period gets marked down for a) not being the same type of blistering, eye-popping player as at West Coast and b) doing it in an average to poor side. Pop that version of Judd into Richmond's dynasty and that period would be talked about for years and years to come. I really doubt Martin would've had those 2009-2011 results in a so-so side. He didn't even do it as the star of a dominant side 2017-2020.
So with Judd's 2004 Brownlow and 2006 Leigh Matthews Trophy, he had 5 SEPARATE SEASONS where he was acknowledged as the competition's best player based on either the Brownlow, AFLPA MVP or AFLCA Coaches Award (which has only been awarded since 2006).
I thinks it's mainly because I rate the Goal Kicking mids higher than the Ball winning mids. And also consider team success, indvidual accolades , impact on team etc.
For exmaple most of Buckley's statistically elite season haven't translated in to tem success for Collingwood, so gets marked down for it.
If you can be great in both stats absoluetly elite 30 + possesions and 1 goal per game in the current era. (25 + possesions and 1 goal per game in the 90s up to around 2006.)
Then it's the 25+1 or 30 & 0.5 guys (or 20& 1 and 25& 0.5 from for the 90s early 00s mids.)
Next the 20+1 or the 25 &0.5 guys.
My problem with Pendles is that he's neither had a 30 possesion season. has been very close though, nor a goal per game season (again beeen very close).
Judd went from being a goal kicking mid to the ball winning mid. He still had a very good career though, but his years at being the damaging goal kicking mid were limited though obviously due to his injuries.
Very fine margins though and as i said in the dedictaed thread for the player rankings , would not have any issue with others rating them in a completely different way.
I'm not sure how much more Buckley could have done for Collingwood than winning a Norm Smith Medal in the losing 2002 Grand Final and Brownlow in the losing 2003 Grand Final season.
If it were basketball and there were 5 players on the field at any one time, I'd get your point...
Yeah I did a list of how many different years players had taken home at least one of these and Judd trailed only Ablett. But Ablett was well on top when it came to number of years taking home at least two of them in the same year (e.g greater confluence for being THE best).
Also coaches votes have been awarded since 2003, it's just the leaderboards/week by week results are limited to 2006 onwards. Remember Bucks won the first one in 2003!
The GAS effect. Drag a decent but not dominant side to GFs against truly elite opposition, don't quite bring a flag home, get marked down compared to excellent players who played in quite clearly THE best side.
Buckley suffers compared to Voss and Hird for that reason when it comes to neutrals opinions on legacy. Now I still think Voss was a better player overall but Buckley is well above many of the top mids in flag winning years over the past 30 years or so.
Judd is a tale of two players - at carlton he reinvented himself.
If he hadn’t got that groin injury he’d be the goat, he was amazing - never the same at carton. Still amazing. But human at carlton - he was a colossus at eags.
