- Sep 28, 2018
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He’s more like a COAT or a BOAT than a GOAT - this very boring thread won’t FLOAT.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
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Great points, and I doubt any of the Dusty brigade will give you a genuine reply as it would mean conceding that Ablett was clearly the better performer over their careers.
As for consistency, Ablett finished with 69 more games than Martin currently has, yet still averages more disposals and goals per game than Martin does now. So Dusty would need to play 3 further full seasons of 39+ goals a season whilst averaging 26.5 disposals a game just to draw level with Gaz. Considering he hasn’t averaged that many disposals since 2017 or kicked that many goals ever, it seems like a big ask. And that’s without even going into the -4 MVP awards and -4 All Australians which will be impossible for Dusty to achieve from here.
Consistency over a long career is what makes the GOATs, you can’t be a GOAT only living off a handful or less of top seasons. That’s why John Coleman isn’t considered a GOAT despite playing 5 amazing seasons before his injury.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
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I appreciate your balanced view. FWIW I currently rate GAJ higher than Martin also. Martin might catch him if he has another 1-2 seasons like 2023, but time will tell.
I just chuckle when people question Martin’s consistency or excellence over an extended period. 11 x seasons of 20+ 1+, 200+ Brownlow votes, what’s likely to be his 9th+ top-3 B&F finish ….
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This thread continues to deliver.
FWIW I don't think Dusty is the GOAT, but I still enjoy his legendary career at the Tigers.
The shitfight here though is a gold mine, there's a lot of really angry people and it's a terrific read.
FWIW I don't think Dusty is the GOAT, but I still enjoy his legendary career at the Tigers.
The shitfight here though is a gold mine, there's a lot of really angry people and it's a terrific read.
The thing about Dusty is that he is a victim of his own brilliance
Out of all the great champions in the modern era, all of which have been discussed here, none of them where as good as he was in finals, and that's very important, unlike some others here, I actually respect your opinion, and you make good points, but you consistently understate and undervalue Dusty and his impact in finals and grand finals, , he is the best finals player of all time, compared to the other players of his era.
Now the problem with the above is that it sets the ceiling very high for Dusty, even though he has more 20 games and 1 goal seasons than any other current player, and more of such seasons than GAJ, and he averages more brownlow votes per game than GAJ, somehow it is seen that GAJ was clearly the better home and away player, now I am not saying that Dusty was a better home and away player than GAJ, even though I have shown some stats above that prove that point, what I will say, is worse case, it is very very close. On the flipside however it is not that close in comparing their careers in finals, that is for sure, well at the least, I would say it is reasonable to say, Dusty was a much better player in finals than GAJ, than GAJ was a better player than Dusty in home and away.
The other thing about Dusty, that cannot be said about GAJ is that Dusty does not care about stat peddling, GAJ clearly did, the other thing is there has never been a more unselfish team player than Dustin Martin.
The thing that is the enigma about dusty is that I can't think of another player in history, who elevated his game more, in finals.
And for some strange reason, its held against him, Dusty was one of the greatest ever players in the home and away season, and undisputedly the greatest player ever in finals, well at least in the modern era, thats for sure , that makes him the goat, because in my opinion, to be the goat, you have to win, you have to play well in finals, and you need to be the best player in the most important games, grand finals.
Spot on. Fadge is dead set fuming that Dusty won 3 Ayres 3 Smiths Coaches MVP and Brownlow with record votes.
He needs to relax about it.
It's never a good idea to sound like blaisee. You're edging close with this non-contribution "triggered!" commentary. People have different opinions. I don't rate Pendlebury above Voss but it isn't personal from him winning the 2010 flag.
If this was the case I'd rate no Hawks at all when many of them are my favourite non Geelong players this century.
Spot on. Fadge is dead set fuming that Dusty won 3 Ayres 3 Smiths Coaches MVP and Brownlow with record votes.
He needs to relax about it.
You know what we need ?
More fadge ratings
Especially the ones that rate Pendles grand finals better than Dusty's grand finals
Just bizarre
It is said laughter is the best medicine.
So Fadge ratings are extremely therapeutic. They use them on trauma victims.
- Oct 19, 2020
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What a year.
- Oct 19, 2020
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I laughed at the "what a year".
Give me stacks and stacks of goals and/or assists
OR
Give me a top tier midfielder in the best few players most weeks.
This is the equivalent of saying Petracca has the most tap ons recorded for a midfielder or Andrews has the most handballs recorded by a key defender. The care factor is low.
Dusty plays as a high half forward/mid and gets a lot of the ball. Great. But midfielders do one job better and forwards do their job better. Martin has been a decent in betweener.
More 20 disposal and 1 goal average seasons? Dusty’s had 11 and Ablett had 9. Ablett also had one season of 30.2 and 0.9 and Dusty had one season where if he literally kicked one goal less he would’ve fallen under the 1 goal average. The point is, on that measure they’re pretty close. Where they’re not close at all is when you raise the requirements to an elite 30 and 1. It’s Ablett 5-0. In fact Martin only averaged over 30 once in his career regardless of goals. Ablett did it 7 times.
You call Ablett a stat pedlar, but in the 11 years of his career where contested possessions were recorded, he averaged 12.5, and that’s excluding 3 of his best MVP years which would have increased his average. Martin averages 9.9 over his whole career. Even if you wanna take out Martin’s first few seasons which are missing from Ablett’s averages, Ablett had 9 years averaging over 10 contested disposals to Martin’s 5. And again, that’s excluding 3 years where Ablett won the league MVP - 2007/08/09.
Fair enough if you wanna say Martin reached higher levels in finals, but to say at worst their H&A records are ‘very very close’ or that you’ve somehow proven Martin was better in H&A is pure delusion. 8AAs and 5MVPs vs 4 and 1, not to mention that Ablett still leads Martin in career disposal and goal averages despite playing 3 extra full seasons all at ages older than Martin is now. Funny also that Martin being the most selfless team player ever doesn’t seem very interested in tackling much. If he plays 3 more full seasons he’d need to average 10 tackles a game just to get even with Ablett. Considering the most he ever averaged is 3.9 I don’t see it happening!
- Oct 19, 2020
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It's much harder to do those things as a forward. You can't argue with those stats.
It's not the opinions that make me laugh, I agree with most of them that say he isn't the GOAT, it's way they're delivered, not so much by you but I think you can guess who the more entertaining posters are with their comments.
Why have his last handful of weeks been more impressive?
Is it because he is getting more ground balls, disposals and contested possessions?
No, it's because he's been going at 3.4 goals/assists a game during that time. He had 14 goals and 7 goal assists after the first 17 rounds. That's a really low return and if he stayed at that rate the whole year I wouldn't even call his year decent, such is his talent.
I'm glad he's finished well, I like seeing Dusty fire, but in my opinion he hasn't consistently done that this season. I respect your take on things a lot more than a couple of the class clowns in here though.
Fair enough. There is an element of mutual winding up and over the top statements from both sides, I'm not immune to that. "My clubs champion is better than your clubs champion" I guess is one of the more generic and pointless arguments, but hey. It'll probably be 40 years before we meet in a final again.
Bucks had 3 seasons of 29 disposals and 1 goal per season games (98,99,2000) but all were in collingwood teams with very poor records. Combined win loss of (17-39) in games Buckley played in those 3 seasons. So Bucks success did not have translate in to success for Collinwood and he would have benefited from a lack of good players to get those touches and score those goals. From memory only Scotty Burns was a decent mid int hose Collingwood teams.
I think if a players has a similar season in a succesful team packed with starts it's more valuable.
For example -I'd say Swan had better seasons from 2010-2012. 31 & 0.92, 31 & 1.3, 34 & 1.19 in succesful Collingwood teams containing Pendles, Beams, Thomas, Sidebottom etc.
Anyway you yourself had rated Bucks 5th out 6, same as me, with only the player coming after him been different and i'm sure bucks lack of a premership compared with others would have been a reason for that.
I also think that winning percentage in home and away , finals and grand finals is also important for the goat
Dusty is ahead of gaj on all three .
So if gaj was so great , why didn’t he impact the result as much as dusty did in home and away , finals and grand finals .
- Feb 19, 2011
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Wowee, a load of forward disposals, not exactly stiff competition in the FWD line with Reiwoldt and Coleman Cotchin parked there.....
In his prime, 3 grand finals for 2 premierships against those Port Adelaide, Hawthorn and St Kilda sides (with good Collingwood, West Coast and Bulldogs sides around) as a collective was a greater achievement than 3 grand finals for 3 premierships against those Adelaide, GWS and Geelong sides (with average Brisbane and Port sides around - that bottled big finals repeatedly and never achieved anything).
The 2007 season was like 2017, a soft year at the top but having to pass a Collingwood side at the G who gave it a great crack was a bigger obstacle than any Richmond faced in 2017.
2008 Hawthorn arrived early but were fantastic all season and full of stars that would go on to win a dynasty and impact players/past greats who stepped up on the day (Crawford, Dew, young Ellis played the game of his life). Bulldogs during that time I guess were equivalent to Port 20-21.
2009 St Kilda and Collingwood were top end, Melbourne based challengers. 2010 Collingwood would put the last pieces together and would've had a dynasty themselves if not for Geelong. St Kilda the most unlucky team not to win a flag - easily could've had two.
