Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Caligo]

Fadge likes to think he’s the most intelligent person in the room, but alas…..

It’s just the same as comparing Adam Gilchrist averaging 47 batting at #7 against others batting at #7 and giving him a rating compared to others in the same position, and not comparing him to Ponting batting at #3.

For their AA team of course this makes sense… they compare everyone against all others when playing the same position and choose whomever rates most about the average in each position.


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Gilchrist definitely should be compared with other number 6s and 7s though, especially since he kept every test he played. He shouldn't be compared with first drops.

I am not even sure Gillie should be compared with guys like Sanga or De Villiers since they didn't even have to keep most of the tests they played.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Champion Data's top 10 players after Round 20, 2023

Daniel Hoyne joined SEN's Sportsday to reveal the list.

www.sen.com.au

Read this, comprehend, swallow some pride, then come back and join the conversation.

(Quick search could only find the article after round 20, but the premise remains the same).

C’mon Fadge … Hoyne specifically is quoted in the article:

“He’s the #1 rated player in the competition, rating 6-points above his expectation”.

Then of Cerra he’s quoted as saying:

“Adam Cerra is now a top-20 player in the competition based on expectation”

How can you possibly read this as meaning he’s the best player in the competition when in both of his direct quotes he says it’s based on expectation?

The irony of your ‘gotcha’ article link actually getting you.


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[demondavey]

It is pointless telling me those things without also telling me why that should translate into the relative AA selection and leadership numbers we have seen for Geelong v Richmond and Hawthorn COMBINED.

You are telling me only why Geelong should have more selections than Richmond. And why they should have more selections than Hawthorn. Everybody here already knows that so you are telling us nothing.

Isn’t obvious why? Because they’ve been better for longer and more consistently.

You’re not offering anything valid but having a typical Geelong sook.

 

[demondavey]

I just checked the history books and no, neither of those guys dominated 3 x final series and 3 x Grand Finals.


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He is above those guys, sure, but he isn’t anything like the best 20 players the game has produced.

 

[demondavey]

It is pointless telling me those things without also telling me why that should translate into the relative AA selection and leadership numbers we have seen for Geelong v Richmond and Hawthorn COMBINED.

You are telling me only why Geelong should have more selections than Richmond. And why they should have more selections than Hawthorn. Everybody here already knows that so you are telling us nothing.

Even the periods were Hawthorn and Richmond were flat, Geelong was top 4. And in the years Hawthorn and Richmond were good, Geelong have been top 4 bar 2015 & 2018.

2015 - no Geelong entries
2018 - two entries.

Suggesting it’s a rort is simply ludicrous.

 

[Fadge]

Lol.
"Champion Data’s Daniel Hoyne has handed down the top 10 players in the competition after Round 20 and there’s movement in the list.

Champion Data’s new ratings system works by analysing how far above or below expectation players have performed per 100 minutes, meaning all positions on the ground can be compared."

They are still publishing their ratings lists. Jack Sinclair is not the highest rated player in the game according the CD. He is the highest rated versus expectations for his position.


1. Jack Sinclair (St Kilda)

“He is the no.1 rated player in the competition, performing six rating points above his expectation.”

Hoyne also revealed several players who have risen significantly in recent weeks.

“Dusty (Dustin Martin) is coming with a bullet, he’s gone from 28th to 13th,” Hoyne added.

“Tim English is coming with a bullet, he’s gone from 57th to 16th.

“Max Gawn, 53rd to 18th.

“And Adam Cerra is now a top 20 player in the competition based on expectation.”


He repeats over and again this is based on expectation(for the position played.)

The highest rated players outright is the lists I posted.


Your brain must be deprived of nutrients Fadge. Eat some superfood mate.

I'm intrigued to understand how your mind works.

You must read something that you disagree with, and automatically disregard that you have read it, and pretend that it actually says something that it doesn't...

I mean you even quoted where Hoyne stated 'He [Sinclair] is the number 1 rated player in the competition'. And you've also quoted how the new Champion Data Ratings system works.

 

[Fadge]

Fadgeratings. The state of the art ratings system that gave Pendlebury’s 2011 final series with zero goals, zero goal assists, zero Norm Smiths and zero flags a 27/30, whilst Martin’s 5 goal, 8 goal assists, Norm Smith medal (and 7 more contested possessions) and a flag got 26.5/30.

Word on the street is the Fadgeratings system developed by a passionate Collingwood supporter is under review. Early indications are there’s an inherent bias that includes a 25% Fadgelogic loading for Collingwood players.

So is Jack Sinclair the best player in the game?

Has he been the best player in the game for the past two seasons?

Because this is what the same guy who you have been quoting talking up Martin's phenomenal 2023 thinks, based on the same method of analysis...

 

[Fadge]

It is pointless telling me those things without also telling me why that should translate into the relative AA selection and leadership numbers we have seen for Geelong v Richmond and Hawthorn COMBINED.

You are telling me only why Geelong should have more selections than Richmond. And why they should have more selections than Hawthorn. Everybody here already knows that so you are telling us nothing.

FFS.

Read what is written, then comprehend what you have read.

 

[Fadge]

If he helps break the Saints 56-year Premiership drought and wins 3 x Ayres Medals, 3 x Norm Smiths, 3 x flags, an AFLCA, AFLMVP and a Brownlow from 2023-2026 then don’t worry, we will.

But that would be something beyond belief if achieved that, don’t you think?

But he's already allegedly achieved something Martin never did.

He's actually performed as the best player in the game across two separate seasons (according to Champion Data).

Martin only ever had one season where he performed as the best player in the game - 2017.

 

[Fadge]

Fadge likes to think he’s the most intelligent person in the room, but alas…..

It’s just the same as comparing Adam Gilchrist averaging 47 batting at #7 against others batting at #7 and giving him a rating compared to others in the same position, and not comparing him to Ponting batting at #3.

For their AA team of course this makes sense… they compare everyone against all others when playing the same position and choose whomever rates most about the average in each position.

It's not me who uses this data to form the conclusions that are are being shared.

It's the organisation that has been referenced ad infinitum by Richmond supporters over the past three months to talk up his season and preach to us why he was a walk up start for the All Australian team.

I know it's a bit of an inconvenient truth to hear it but I'm simply sharing what has been published.

For what it's worth, I don't agree that Sinclair has been the best performed player over each of the past two seasons, in the same way is I don't believe Martin was in the top handful of forwards this year (FFS, he was outside the top 40 goalkickers), nor did I believe he deserved a place in the All-Australian team.

 

[Fadge]

C’mon Fadge … Hoyne specifically is quoted in the article:

“He’s the #1 rated player in the competition, rating 6-points above his expectation”.

Then of Cerra he’s quoted as saying:

“Adam Cerra is now a top-20 player in the competition based on expectation”

How can you possibly read this as meaning he’s the best player in the competition when in both of his direct quotes he says it’s based on expectation?

The irony of your ‘gotcha’ article link actually getting you.

BECAUSE IT IS THE METHOD CD USE TO RATE PLAYERS IN THE CURRENT DAY AND AGE.

It literally states it the article:


Hoyne also explained this when announcing the season's best players on his weekly visit to SEN.

 

[PhatBoy]

What a joke

One that seems to destroy you emotionally

 

[Roby]

Of course it’s obvious. There was probably huge numbers of Hawthorn AA reps between 1983-1991. Rightly so.

Lol. You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Sttew]

Lol. You couldn't be more wrong.

All Australian as we know it started in 1991

 

[Noidnadroj]

Gilchrist definitely should be compared with other number 6s and 7s though, especially since he kept every test he played. He shouldn't be compared with first drops.

I am not even sure Gillie should be compared with guys like Sanga or De Villiers since they didn't even have to keep most of the tests they played.

Yes, I was agreeing with the ratings. To get an idea of how Gilchrist is performing you need to compare him to other #7 keeper/batsman. If he rates higher this doesn’t mean he’s a better batsman or better player than Ponting, it just means he’s rating higher in comparison to ‘like for like’ players.


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[Roby]

Just because Dusty is possibly the best finals player of all time (he does make a fairly solid case) does not translate into him automatically being also the greatest player of all time in nearly over 130 seasons since the VFL/AFL started.

Why don't you Richmond fans get that ? So infuriating

I think Haydn Bunton Snr is probably the best player of all time myself. His playing career resume more than stacks up against Dusty's.

Did Bunton pass the eye test for you?

 

[Caligo]

Yes, I was agreeing with the ratings. To get an idea of how Gilchrist is performing you need to compare him to other #7 keeper/batsman. If he rates higher this doesn’t mean he’s a better batsman or better player than Ponting, it just means he’s rating higher in comparison to ‘like for like’ players.


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Sorry, I got confused by the thread.

Gillie is such a weird one to assess too. Almost an outlier really.

 

[Roby]

Fadge likes to think he’s the most intelligent person in the room, but alas…..

It’s just the same as comparing Adam Gilchrist averaging 47 batting at #7 against others batting at #7 and giving him a rating compared to others in the same position, and not comparing him to Ponting batting at #3.

For their AA team of course this makes sense… they compare everyone against all others when playing the same position and choose whomever rates most about the average in each position.


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Fudge is the most illogical person on this site. Put them on ignore and do everyone a favour and stop the pollution.

 

[Fadge]

Fudge is the most illogical person on this site. Put them on ignore and do everyone a favour and stop the pollution.

Badge of Honour #6 from Roby!

 

[Fadge]

Yes, I was agreeing with the ratings. To get an idea of how Gilchrist is performing you need to compare him to other #7 keeper/batsman. If he rates higher this doesn’t mean he’s a better batsman or better player than Ponting, it just means he’s rating higher in comparison to ‘like for like’ players.

How does Ponting go as a wicketkeeper?

 

[PhatBoy]

Lol. You couldn't be more wrong.

It was selected based on State of Origin games before 1991.

 

[Noidnadroj]

So is Jack Sinclair the best player in the game?

Has he been the best player in the game for the past two seasons?

Because this is what the same guy who you have been quoting talking up Martin's phenomenal 2023 thinks, based on the same method of analysis...

The 100x CD ratings show Sinclair outperforms his expected rating based on the positions he plays than anyone else in the comp. Nothing more, nothing less. If you, Hoyney or anyone else believe that makes him the best player in the comp that’s up to you.

When looking at the merits of AA selection, then of course it’s relevant to assess how players are performing in comparison to other players in the same area of the ground. Josh Daicos is about 75th ranked player in the comp, but his rating is being assessed against other wingman.

You seem to be struggling to understand how the 100x CD ratings system works, so maybe best you move on.


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[FreddyTwoShoes]

I could be wrong but as a percentage I think players from Victorian clubs are picked at a slightly higher level than non-Victorian clubs, taking into account there are more Victorian teams too.

That wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I'm intrigued to understand how your mind works.

You must read something that you disagree with, and automatically disregard that you have read it, and pretend that it actually says something that it doesn't...

I mean you even quoted where Hoyne stated 'He [Sinclair] is the number 1 rated player in the competition'. And you've also quoted how the new Champion Data Ratings system works.

So is Jack Sinclair the best player in the game?

Has he been the best player in the game for the past two seasons?

Because this is what the same guy who you have been quoting talking up Martin's phenomenal 2023 thinks, based on the same method of analysis...

FFS.

Read what is written, then comprehend what you have read.

But he's already allegedly achieved something Martin never did.

He's actually performed as the best player in the game across two separate seasons (according to Champion Data).

Martin only ever had one season where he performed as the best player in the game - 2017.

It's not me who uses this data to form the conclusions that are are being shared.

It's the organisation that has been referenced ad infinitum by Richmond supporters over the past three months to talk up his season and preach to us why he was a walk up start for the All Australian team.

I know it's a bit of an inconvenient truth to hear it but I'm simply sharing what has been published.

For what it's worth, I don't agree that Sinclair has been the best performed player over each of the past two seasons, in the same way is I don't believe Martin was in the top handful of forwards this year (FFS, he was outside the top 40 goalkickers), nor did I believe he deserved a place in the All-Australian team.

BECAUSE IT IS THE METHOD CD USE TO RATE PLAYERS IN THE CURRENT DAY AND AGE.

It literally states it the article:
View attachment 1792362

Hoyne also explained this when announcing the season's best players on his weekly visit to SEN.

When you start digging a hole for yourself Fadge, you use an 80 tonne excavator.

I am starting to think you are not trolling here and you actually completely misunderstand the situation, despite having it explained to you in plain english. Which is funny. Keep going mate, don't let us interfere with you making a fool of yourself.

 

[Noidnadroj]

BECAUSE IT IS THE METHOD CD USE TO RATE PLAYERS IN THE CURRENT DAY AND AGE.

It literally states it the article:
View attachment 1792362

Hoyne also explained this when announcing the season's best players on his weekly visit to SEN.

Yes… they are literally rating players against other players in the same position. But not all positions are equal and this is the bit you clearly fail to understand.

If the average wing rating is 5, and Mason Wood averages 10, his rating is 2x. If the average midfielder rating is 9, and Bont averages 17, just under 2x, then Mason Wood is exceeding expectation by more than Bont and would be rated higher ‘based on expectation’.

Is it your contention that Hoyney would in turn say Mason Wood is a better player than Bontempelli in 2023? Or that Mason Wood is having a better season than Bont ‘based on expectations’. They are completely different outcomes.

Majority of the highest quality players are in the midfield, and more of the ‘spuds’ are wingers (McIntosh, Pickett, B Hill, Jayden Hunt, B Ellis, Duggan etc….) so of course it’s easier to perform above expectation for a wingman because the wingers average rating scores will be a lot lower. This doesn’t make the wingman having a great season based on expectations a better player than the midfielder who is not quite the same level above expectations.

If you believe this is what the CD ratings conclusions are intended to be, or that Hoyney believes Mason Wood is a better player than The Bont if his rating above expectations is higher the there’s no hope for you Fadge.

But I don’t think you believe this. You’re just now stuck with your initial assertion and you don’t want to backdown.



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