Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Meteoric Rise]

Yes… they are literally rating players against other players in the same position. But not all positions are equal and this is the bit you clearly fail to understand.

If the average wing rating is 5, and Mason Wood averages 10, his rating is 2x. If the average midfielder rating is 9, and Bont averages 17, just under 2x, then Mason Wood is exceeding expectation by more than Bont and would be rated higher ‘based on expectation’.

Is it your contention that Hoyney would in turn say Mason Wood is a better player than Bontempelli in 2023? Or that Mason Wood is having a better season than Bont ‘based on expectations’. They are completely different outcomes.

Majority of the highest quality players are in the midfield, and more of the ‘spuds’ are wingers (McIntosh, Pickett, B Hill, Jayden Hunt, B Ellis, Duggan etc….) so of course it’s easier to perform above expectation for a wingman because the wingers average rating scores will be a lot lower. This doesn’t make the wingman having a great season based on expectations a better player than the midfielder who is not quite the same level above expectations.

If you believe this is what the CD ratings conclusions are intended to be, or that Hoyney believes Mason Wood is a better player than The Bont if his rating above expectations is higher the there’s no hope for you Fadge.

But I don’t think you believe this. You’re just now stuck with your initial assertion and you don’t want to backdown.



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Dear old Fadge floats along under the radar trying to chime in with cheap troll posts where he gets the chance but he doesn't normally put his credibility on the line. Until he does. Then it is like a credibility holocaust for him. Every time.

Some of my Fadge favourites:

- Bulldogs 08-10 team that never won a single final against a team finishing top 4 was 10 goals better than Richmond's 17-20 triple Premiership + minor Premiership dynasty team that won 10 finals against teams who finished top 4. That is a bit of a Fadge all timer that one, he will be going to ever better it. But he tries...

- Pendlebury 2011 zero scoreboard impact finals series superior to Dustin Martin's 2017 masterclass 13 goals + goal assists finals series. There is quite a lot of what the ****ery about this one too, as you have ruthlessly exposed.

- Dustin Martin is not in the top 15 players this century. We have to give him some allowances for this one because there are other trolls willing to make similarly stupid statements, unlike the above two, where Fadge is on his own on planet Fadge . But it is palpably and demonstrably wrong.

- Now going around wrongly sprouting that CD ratings have no credibility because they rate Jack Sinclair the number one footballer in the AFL the last 2 seasons. Only, he doesn't understand that they didn't do this at all, as can readily be demonstrated by reference to Champion Data player ratings to be found on several websites and apps absolutely every ****ing where.

Hopefully Collingwood wins some finals or he will never recover from this.

 

[Roby]

Dear old Fadge floats along under the radar trying to chime in with cheap troll posts where he gets the chance but he doesn't normally put his credibility on the line. Until he does. Then it is like a credibility holocaust for him. Every time.

Some of my Fadge favourites:

- Bulldogs 08-10 team that never won a single final against a team finishing top 4 was 10 goals better than Richmond's 17-20 triple Premiership + minor Premiership dynasty team that won 10 finals against teams who finished top 4. That is a bit of a Fadge all timer that one, he will be going to ever better it. But he tries...

- Pendlebury 2011 zero scoreboard impact finals series superior to Dustin Martin's 2017 masterclass 13 goals + goal assists finals series. There is quite a lot of what the *ery about this one too, as you have ruthlessly exposed.

- Dustin Martin is not in the top 15 players this century. We have to give him some allowances for this one because there are other trolls willing to make similarly stupid statements, unlike the above two, where Fadge is on his own on planet Fadge . But it is palpably and demonstrably wrong.

- Now going around wrongly sprouting that CD ratings have no credibility because they rate Jack Sinclair the number one footballer in the AFL the last 2 seasons. Only, he doesn't understand that they didn't do this at all, as can readily be demonstrated by reference to Champion Data player ratings to be found on several websites and apps absolutely every ******* where.

Hopefully Collingwood wins some finals or he will never recover from this.

He also agreed that winning three premierships in five years, was better than winning three in a row. That's when I put Fudge on ignore. It doesn't take long for me to realise.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He also agreed that winning three premierships in five years, was better than winning three in a row. That's when I put Fudge on ignore. It doesn't take long for me to realise.

He sure does have some strange ideas dear old fajjy wajjy.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Roby and The Meteor.
The dynamic duo no one asked for.

175 pages dedicated to someone who will never even be the best in his era. Let alone ever.

 

[Rich01]

- Pendlebury 2011 zero scoreboard impact finals series superior to Dustin Martin's 2017 masterclass 13 goals + goal assists finals series. There is quite a lot of what the *ery about this one too, as you have ruthlessly exposed.

His rudderless 2 possession last quarter in the 2018 grand final when his team needed their leaders to stand out was another key moment their fans choose to gloss over when thinking of their champ.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

His rudderless 2 possession last quarter in the 2018 grand final when his team needed their leaders to stand out was another key moment their fans choose to gloss over when thinking of their champ.

Quality 2 chip kick receives though, you can never have too many of them when you are determined to keep a long standing tradition intact and lose a Grand Final.

 

[BF Tiger]

His rudderless 2 possession last quarter in the 2018 preliminaryship when his team needed their leaders to stand out was another key moment their fans choose to gloss over when thinking of their champ.

EFA

 

[Roby]

How do Gazza's Grand Finals's stack up? And if that is not enough of a sample size, can someone check Prelims.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How do Gazza's Grand Finals's stack up? And if that is not enough of a sample size, can someone check Prelims.

Which Gazza? There were two of them. The equal 2nd most successful footballer in his family and the equal 7th most successful footballer in his family.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Which Gazza? There were two of them. The equal 2nd most successful footballer in his family and the equal 7th most successful footballer in his family.

Yep and Dusty was the equal 450th most successful footballer this year

 

[Roby]

Which Gazza? There were two of them. The equal 2nd most successful footballer in his family and the equal 7th most successful footballer in his family.

They're Gazza and God. That's how we refer to them

 

[Meteoric Rise]

They're Gazza and God. That's how we refer to them

The man named Gazza then, who sits 5 Premierships below the most successful footballer in his family, has what you might call a very underwhelming finals record, as you might expect from a footballer who could not even get within 4 flags of the most successful footballer in his family.

He averages in finals:

23 disposals v Dusty 22

1.3 goals + goal assists v Dusty 2.8

4 tackles v Dusty 2

9.2 contested possessions v Dusty 11.4

approx 4 clearances each

1.1 x 1%ers v Dusty 1.6

100 Fadge Points v Dusty 7.3

Outscored by opposition team by an average of 11 goals per Grand Final, 4 v 48. Dusty outscored by opposition team in Grand Finals by an average of 2.66 goals, 10 v 18.

 

[Roby]

The man named Gazza then, who sits 5 Premierships below the most successful footballer in his family, has what you might call a very underwhelming finals record, as you might expect from a footballer who could not even get within 4 flags of the most successful footballer in his family.

He averages in finals:

23 disposals v Dusty 22

1.3 goals + goal assists v Dusty 2.8

4 tackles v Dusty 2

9.2 contested possessions v Dusty 11.4

approx 4 clearances each

1.1 x 1%ers v Dusty 1.6

100 Fadge Points v Dusty 7.3

Outscored by opposition team by an average of 11 goals per Grand Final, 4 v 48. Dusty outscored by opposition team in Grand Finals by an average of 2.66 goals, 10 v 18.

Maybe I'll ask Gazza himself where he ranks Martin; then I'll come here and post.

 

[kidkenobi]

Maybe I'll ask Gazza himself where he ranks Martin; then I'll come here and post.

Well we already know where Martin rates Ablett ()

 

[Roby]

Well we already know where Martin rates Ablett ()

Does he? Which one?

 

[kidkenobi]

Does he? Which one?

Jnr

 

[Fadge]

The 100x CD ratings show Sinclair outperforms his expected rating based on the positions he plays than anyone else in the comp. Nothing more, nothing less. If you, Hoyney or anyone else believe that makes him the best player in the comp that’s up to you.

When looking at the merits of AA selection, then of course it’s relevant to assess how players are performing in comparison to other players in the same area of the ground. Josh Daicos is about 75th ranked player in the comp, but his rating is being assessed against other wingman.

You seem to be struggling to understand how the 100x CD ratings system works, so maybe best you move on.


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When you start digging a hole for yourself Fadge, you use an 80 tonne excavator.

I am starting to think you are not trolling here and you actually completely misunderstand the situation, despite having it explained to you in plain english. Which is funny. Keep going mate, don't let us interfere with you making a fool of yourself.

Yes… they are literally rating players against other players in the same position. But not all positions are equal and this is the bit you clearly fail to understand.

If the average wing rating is 5, and Mason Wood averages 10, his rating is 2x. If the average midfielder rating is 9, and Bont averages 17, just under 2x, then Mason Wood is exceeding expectation by more than Bont and would be rated higher ‘based on expectation’.

Is it your contention that Hoyney would in turn say Mason Wood is a better player than Bontempelli in 2023? Or that Mason Wood is having a better season than Bont ‘based on expectations’. They are completely different outcomes.

Majority of the highest quality players are in the midfield, and more of the ‘spuds’ are wingers (McIntosh, Pickett, B Hill, Jayden Hunt, B Ellis, Duggan etc….) so of course it’s easier to perform above expectation for a wingman because the wingers average rating scores will be a lot lower. This doesn’t make the wingman having a great season based on expectations a better player than the midfielder who is not quite the same level above expectations.

If you believe this is what the CD ratings conclusions are intended to be, or that Hoyney believes Mason Wood is a better player than The Bont if his rating above expectations is higher the there’s no hope for you Fadge.

But I don’t think you believe this. You’re just now stuck with your initial assertion and you don’t want to backdown.

FMD. I say FMD.

Read the article I shared, and comprehend the text in the article. Start with the statement 'Champion Data’s Daniel Hoyne has handed down the top 10 players in the competition after Round 20 and there’s movement in the list.'

I clearly understand how the 100x Champion Data Ratings system works (and the examples provided by NOID boy are incorrect, highlighting they clearly do not understand the ratings they are referencing), and I clearly don't agree with either the base ratings determined by the Player Ratings algorithm (their rating of Bachar Houli as the 27th best player on the ground in the 2017 Grand Final told me all I needed to know about the algorithm), nor do I agree with their concept of rating players based on how far above (or below) expectation they have performed.

BUT IT'S NOT ME WHO IS JUMPING ONTO AN INTERNET FORUM, AND TELLING EVERYONE THEIR BOY DUSTY IS A LOCK FOR AA BECAUSE CHAMPION DATA RATES HIM THE 2ND BEST GENERAL FORWARD, AND 5TH BEST FORWARD, WITHOUT ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING THE BASIS FOR THIS ASSERTION.

But keep going, because the more you go down this path, the bigger dimwit you show everyone you are.

 

[Fadge]

He also agreed that winning three premierships in five years, was better than winning three in a row. That's when I put Fudge on ignore. It doesn't take long for me to realise.

YES! Badge of Honour #7!

(And for the record, I never said that as a general comment. I have indeed explained why I believe Geelong's dynasty is superior to the other three dynasties of the 21st century, which takes into account a multitude of factors, but the fact Roby has jumped to this conclusion simply because Geelong's dynasty was over 5 seasons whilst the other dynasties were over 3 or 4 seasons, it further exemplifies his complete lack of analytical and comprehension skills).

 

[Meteoric Rise]

FMD. I say FMD.

Read the article I shared, and comprehend the text in the article. Start with the statement 'Champion Data’s Daniel Hoyne has handed down the top 10 players in the competition after Round 20 and there’s movement in the list.'

I clearly understand how the 100x Champion Data Ratings system works (and the examples provided by NOID boy are incorrect, highlighting they clearly do not understand the ratings they are referencing), and I clearly don't agree with either the base ratings determined by the Player Ratings algorithm (their rating of Bachar Houli as the 27th best player on the ground in the 2017 Grand Final told me all I needed to know about the algorithm), nor do I agree with their concept of rating players based on how far above (or below) expectation they have performed.

BUT IT'S NOT ME WHO IS JUMPING ONTO AN INTERNET FORUM, AND TELLING EVERYONE THEIR BOY DUSTY IS A LOCK FOR AA BECAUSE CHAMPION DATA RATES HIM THE 2ND BEST GENERAL FORWARD, AND 5TH BEST FORWARD, WITHOUT ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING THE BASIS FOR THIS ASSERTION.

But keep going, because the more you go down this path, the bigger dimwit you show everyone you are.

The "journalist's" wording has turned you into an absolute mess Fadge. You should sue them for leading you to make yourself look like such a clown.

In news just to hand: "the CD ratings system is broken," says owner of its huge ratings rival Fadge Ratings. When asked why he thinks this Mr Fadge responded "I found one of over 100,000 individual player match ratings I disagreed with after watching the match once and this told me all he had to know." Mr Fadge added "the CD ratings are not sufficiently biased for my liking, so I routinely add 25% to Pendlebury's CD ratings for example, to arrive at my own Fadge rating for that player." Mr Fadge further explained that sales of his ratings system have been slow to this point but he expects a certain segment of the market to create high demand for his product should Collingwood happen to win their second Grand Final in 65 years in the upcoming finals series. So there you have it folks, Mr Fadge has pronounced on his rival ratings system Champion Data in no uncertain terms.

 

[Noidnadroj]

FMD. I say FMD.

Read the article I shared, and comprehend the text in the article. Start with the statement 'Champion Data’s Daniel Hoyne has handed down the top 10 players in the competition after Round 20 and there’s movement in the list.'

I clearly understand how the 100x Champion Data Ratings system works (and the examples provided by NOID boy are incorrect, highlighting they clearly do not understand the ratings they are referencing), and I clearly don't agree with either the base ratings determined by the Player Ratings algorithm (their rating of Bachar Houli as the 27th best player on the ground in the 2017 Grand Final told me all I needed to know about the algorithm), nor do I agree with their concept of rating players based on how far above (or below) expectation they have performed.

BUT IT'S NOT ME WHO IS JUMPING ONTO AN INTERNET FORUM, AND TELLING EVERYONE THEIR BOY DUSTY IS A LOCK FOR AA BECAUSE CHAMPION DATA RATES HIM THE 2ND BEST GENERAL FORWARD, AND 5TH BEST FORWARD, WITHOUT ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING THE BASIS FOR THIS ASSERTION.

But keep going, because the more you go down this path, the bigger dimwit you show everyone you are.

You base your assessment on the opening paragraph / headline written by the journo / editor.

Just answer these 2 x simple questions:

Let’s say Mason Wood on the 100x rating is 20% above expectation. And let’s say Lachie Neale is 15% above expectation. The CD player ratings rank Wood higher than Neale.

1. Do you agree with that assertion ?

2. Do you believe Daniel Hoyne would pronounce that Mason Wood was a better player than Lachie Neale in 2023?

Or

3. Do you believe Hoyne would say that Wood is performing better than Neale based on expectation?

You seem to be really struggling to grasp the concept that a wingman compared against other wingman and rating higher doesn’t automatically make them a better player than the midfielder.


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[Fadge]

You base your assessment on the opening paragraph / headline written by the journo / editor.

Just answer these 2 x simple questions:

Let’s say Mason Wood on the 100x rating is 20% above expectation. And let’s say Lachie Neale is 15% above expectation. The CD player ratings rank Wood higher than Neale.

1. Do you agree with that assertion ?

2. Do you believe Daniel Hoyne would pronounce that Mason Wood was a better player than Lachie Neale in 2023?

Or

3. Do you believe Hoyne would say that Wood is performing better than Neale based on expectation?

You seem to be really struggling to grasp the concept that a wingman compared against other wingman and rating higher doesn’t automatically make them a better player than the midfielder.

FFS.

I've told you all, for the 5th time now, that I don't agree with the CD Player Ratings algorithm, nor do I agree with the 100x formula they use.

BUT IT IS THIS DATA THAT YOU GUYS ARE REFERENCING TO TALK UP YOUR BOY DUSTY.

Further, you are wrong when you reference percentage above expectation - they use the raw number (I.e. in the linked article, Jack Sinclair is 6 points above expectation, and in first place. From memory, Nick Daicos was 5.2 points above expectation, and therefore lower than Sinclair, in 6th place in their Rankings).

FFS.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

FFS.

I've told you all, for the 5th time now, that I don't agree with the CD Player Ratings algorithm, nor do I agree with the 100x formula they use.

BUT IT IS THIS DATA THAT YOU GUYS ARE REFERENCING TO TALK UP YOUR BOY DUSTY.

Further, you are wrong when you reference percentage above expectation - they use the raw number (I.e. in the linked article, Jack Sinclair is 6 points above expectation, and in first place. From memory, Nick Daicos was 5.2 points above expectation, and therefore lower than Sinclair, in 6th place in their Rankings).

FFS.

You are wrong because you posted that CD is saying Sinclair is the highest rated player in the game for the last 2 years running. This is not what they are saying.

No good FFS'ing people who are not seeking to misrepresent what CD is saying.

 

[Noidnadroj]

FFS.

I've told you all, for the 5th time now, that I don't agree with the CD Player Ratings algorithm, nor do I agree with the 100x formula they use.

BUT IT IS THIS DATA THAT YOU GUYS ARE REFERENCING TO TALK UP YOUR BOY DUSTY.

Further, you are wrong when you reference percentage above expectation - they use the raw number (I.e. in the linked article, Jack Sinclair is 6 points above expectation, and in first place. From memory, Nick Daicos was 5.2 points above expectation, and therefore lower than Sinclair, in 6th place in their Rankings).

FFS.

Whether it’s percentage above expectations or raw points is a complete diversion from the argument.

And of course if Martin is being debated as a FORWARD in the AA team, then it’s relevant to how he has performance against OTHER FORWARDS in relation to AA selection, and that’s all that has ever been discussed or debated led by Daniel Hoyne. He’s deserving of a spot on the AA forward line due to his rating AS A FORWARD.

Nobody in this living world has ever said ‘Martin is a better player than Bontempelli in 2023’. They’ve only ever said (including Daniel Hoyne) is he’s the second rated forward based based on expectation, and for this reason deserves a spot in the AA forward line.

I’ll ask you this simple question again: if Mason Wood is ranking 5-points above expectation (5 expected and he scores 10) and Lachie Neale is ranking 4-points above expectation (12 expected and he scores 16) do you think Daniel Hoyne would declare Mason Wood in 2023 is a better player than Lachie Neale. Because that’s what you are arguing these ratings represent.

If someone decides that’s a good way to declare best players ‘full stop’ then that’s their decision as an individual. But CD or Hoyne never declare that as their final conclusion. It’s always said as ‘based on expectation’.




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[Fadge]

Whether it’s percentage above expectations or raw points is a complete diversion from the argument.

And of course if Martin is being debated as a FORWARD in the AA team, then it’s relevant to how he has performance against OTHER FORWARDS in relation to AA selection, and that’s all that has ever been discussed or debated led by Daniel Hoyne. He’s deserving of a spot on the AA forward line due to his rating AS A FORWARD.

Nobody in this living world has ever said ‘Martin is a better player than Bontempelli in 2023’. They’ve only ever said (including Daniel Hoyne) is he’s the second rated forward based based on expectation, and for this reason deserves a spot in the AA forward line.

I’ll ask you this simple question again: if Mason Wood is ranking 5-points above expectation (5 expected and he scores 10) and Lachie Neale is ranking 4-points above expectation (12 expected and he scores 16) do you think Daniel Hoyne would declare Mason Wood in 2023 is a better player than Lachie Neale. Because that’s what you are arguing these ratings represent.

If someone decides that’s a good way to declare best players ‘full stop’ then that’s their decision as an individual. But CD or Hoyne never declare that as their final conclusion. It’s always said as ‘based on expectation’.

FFS.

1. Read.
2. Comprehend.

 

[BF Tiger]

FFS.

1. Read.
2. Comprehend.

3. Disregard.
4. Refer to Fadge-gorithm rankings.