Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Sirlemsip]

Moved Thread - Who was/is the better player. Gary Ablett jnr or Dustin Martin?

Different players. Ablett jnr was a dominant midfeider who accumulated possessions at will. Dustin is the ultimate big game player and probably the greatest finals player of all time.

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[Meteoric Rise]

Cheers.

For those too lazy to click a few times:

View attachment 2204861

If he was a better player, it is funny how it didn't show in the most important games.

I would have thought if you want an overwhelming argument to being better than another player you need to be performing at least somewhere near as well as him in the biggest games.

 

[Sirlemsip]

Ablett Jr 4 Grand Finals for 13 Smith medal votes. Dusty 3 Grand Finals for 43 Smith Medal votes.

Ablett Jr finals averaged 23 disposals 1.3 goals + assists. Dusty finals averaged 22 disposals, 2.8 goals + assists.

Ablett Jr probably has it over everyone else in the modern era for consistently high level home & away performances, though Franklin is probably at least his equal in reality once you allow for the positions they played. Ablett's big game record is decent, but is pretty middling for players at this level in the discussion.

Where with all these players their finals records seem to be a step down from their incredible home & away records, with Dusty it is the opposite. His finals performances are a step up from his very credible home & away record. But then he threw in 2017 which is pretty clearly the most decorated season any player has ever played.

Agree that Dusty was a better finals player than GAJ.

If I were to rank the three players you mentioned overall (H&A + Finals):
1. GAJ
2. Buddy
3. Dusty

Please note, this is not a slight on Dusty.
He was fantastic, and you could argue that if one was to look at ONLY Grand Finals, or even ONLY finals - Dusty might be the GOAT.
But overall, in the AFL era (90s to now), he isn't the GOAT.
And if we were to take into account players from before the AFL era (like Matthews, Ablett Snr, etc) he drops even further down the list.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Ya'll really about to revisit the same arguments for what feels like the 50th time?
Will Falcon be joining us on his 50th account also?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Agree that Dusty was a better finals player than GAJ.

If I were to rank the three players you mentioned overall (H&A + Finals):
1. GAJ
2. Buddy
3. Dusty

Please note, this is not a slight on Dusty.
He was fantastic, and you could argue that if one was to look at ONLY Grand Finals, or even ONLY finals - Dusty might be the GOAT.
But overall, in the AFL era (90s to now), he isn't the GOAT.
And if we were to take into account players from before the AFL era (like Matthews, Ablett Snr, etc) he drops even further down the list.

I don't take it as a knock on Dusty. The other two are genuinely great players, accepted as either the best 2 or 2 of the best 3 to play this century.

I personally think Dusty will have a stake in any GOAT or similar discussion until players beat his unique records, because they pertain to:

• unprecedented and as yet unmatched career finals performances, &
• the most decorated season ever played where he basically unified every major award the game bestows.

 

[_RT_]

Given his talents Dustin Martin was one of the most underwhelming home & away players in history.

I don’t clear nearly enough to fact check, but I find it surprising that he ever won any home and away season awards at all.

Tell the truth, you're the genius behind this aren't you

 

[Sttew]

Can't believe this thread has reared its ugly head again, and no surprises why or by who.

GAJ >>>>>> Dusty

Longevity is underrated and GAJ had that in spades compared with Dusty
Dusty's GF were superior. GAJ's best GF was the 2008 GF.
GAJ's overall record is superior. See awards comparison

 

[Forward Press]

Wouldn't be an off-season without a Richmond poster desperately seeking validation.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Dusty had many 'good' seasons, but only one truly amazing season (2017).
Yes, it was probably the best individual season - in the modern/AFL era with current stat records.

The majority of supporters (i.e. non-Richmond supporters) if given the choice would easily take the whole career of GAJ over Dusty.

I would also strongly argue that Leigh Matthews' 1977 season was better than Dusty in 2017.
Hawthorn didn't win the premiership that season, but Lethal's stats that year were absurd:

• 27.1 disposals / game
• 3.8 goals / game

For comparison, Dusty's 2017:

• 29.7 disposals / game
• 1.5 goals / game

From 2011-2015, Martin averaged about 24 disposals and 1.18 goals per game.

For some modern day context, from 2022-2024 averaging 24 and 1.18 in a single season has been achieved by Bont and Heeney, once each in 2024. That’s it. Nobody did it in 2022 or 2023.

Martin averaged that across 5 x seasons - 130 x games… before Richmond were any good and before Martin was regarded as elite.

Then from 2016-2020 his 5-year stretch of football was as good as anyone has ever produced:

- averaged 27.7 disposals and 1.21 goals per game across 113 games including finals. For some context here are the players who’ve averaged 27 and 1.2 in a SINGLE season:

2024: no-one
2023: no-one
2022: no-one
2021: no-one
2020: no-one
2019: no-one (Martin was closest with 26 and 1.4)
2018: no-one (Martin was closest with 25 and 1.3)
2017: Martin and Danger

You get the picture.

Also from 2016-20:

- 4 x AA (his non-AA year of 2019 he averaged 26.1 disposals, 1.4 goals per game, got 23 Brownlow votes and finished 6th in coach’s award - not quite good enough for an AA nod … hahaha).

- 2 x B&F
2 x second B&F

- Average of 24 Brownlow votes per season.

- average of 90 x coaches votes per season (inc finals).

- 3 x flags

- 3 x NS

- 3 x Gary Ayres Awards

- 79 x coaches votes in 12 x finals at 6.58 per game.

So you say 1 x amazing season… yet he averaged 27 and 1.2 across 5 x seasons… something not a single player has done
In a single season for 8 x years.

And even in what people mistakenly think was only his ‘good years’, the 5-years prior from 2011-2015 he averaged 24 and 1.2….

So in the decade and 220+ games from 2011-2020, Martin averaged 25+ and 1.18 goals per game.

Here is the list of players who’ve averaged 25+ and 1.15+ in a SINGLE season since 2012:

Martin
Bont
Heeney
Danger
Zorko
Gray
Fyfe
GAJ
Swan
Boomer
Beams
Stevie J

So absolutely elite players all of them.

Martin averaged across a decade from 2011-2020 what only 11 x other players have achieved in a single season.

But he was not consistent in H&A and had just 1 x amazing season … hmmmmm…


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[Noidnadroj]

The Ablett’s were both selfish players, which was great for their individual stats and personal accolades, but not necessarily helpful in making their teammates around them better. Probably lucky goal assist stats weren’t around during GAS’s career.

And GAJ was famous for not wanting to play hurt or with painkillers even when the team needed him … again, great for your individual stats to only play when cherry ripe, but not always what the team needs. He also cracked the sads if not given the midfield time he wanted.

It’s like the cricketer who always plays for red ink to save their average, even if the team needs them to slog quick runs. Great for the stats, but not necessarily what the team needs.



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[Corn Cobbers]

Martin had one good year and a couple of good grand finals

Didn't do much at the start or end of his career, in fact nothing really

Not even in the top 100 of all time, joke thread, N Daicos has already gone past him

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[Sirlemsip]

From 2011-2015, Martin averaged about 24 disposals and 1.18 goals per game.

For some modern day context, from 2022-2024 averaging 24 and 1.18 in a single season has been achieved by Bont and Heeney, once each in 2024. That’s it. Nobody did it in 2022 or 2023.

Martin averaged that across 5 x seasons - 130 x games… before Richmond were any good and before Martin was regarded as elite.

Then from 2016-2020 his 5-year stretch of football was as good as anyone has ever produced:

- averaged 27.7 disposals and 1.21 goals per game across 113 games including finals. For some context here are the players who’ve averaged 27 and 1.2 in a SINGLE season:

2024: no-one
2023: no-one
2022: no-one
2021: no-one
2020: no-one
2019: no-one (Martin was closest with 26 and 1.4)
2018: no-one (Martin was closest with 25 and 1.3)
2017: Martin and Danger

You get the picture.

Also from 2016-20:

- 4 x AA (his non-AA year of 2019 he averaged 26.1 disposals, 1.4 goals per game, got 23 Brownlow votes and finished 6th in coach’s award - not quite good enough for an AA nod … hahaha).

- 2 x B&F
2 x second B&F

- Average of 24 Brownlow votes per season.

- average of 90 x coaches votes per season (inc finals).

- 3 x flags

- 3 x NS

- 3 x Gary Ayres Awards

- 79 x coaches votes in 12 x finals at 6.58 per game.

So you say 1 x amazing season… yet he averaged 27 and 1.2 across 5 x seasons… something not a single player has done
In a single season for 8 x years.

And even in what people mistakenly think was only his ‘good years’, the 5-years prior from 2011-2015 he averaged 24 and 1.2….

So in the decade and 220+ games from 2011-2020, Martin averaged 25+ and 1.18 goals per game.

Here is the list of players who’ve averaged 25+ and 1.15+ in a SINGLE season since 2012:

Martin
Bont
Heeney
Danger
Zorko
Gray
Fyfe
GAJ
Swan
Boomer
Beams
Stevie J

So absolutely elite players all of them.

Martin averaged across a decade from 2011-2020 what only 11 x other players have achieved in a single season.

But he was not consistent in H&A and had just 1 x amazing season … hmmmmm…


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We aren't just talking about 'Great' players here. The discussion is about whether Dusty is the 'Greatest'.

Once again, I 100% agree that Dusty was a great player, easily in the top 10 players during the time he was active - potentially as high as number 3 behind GAJ and Buddy. This is debateable.

You have pulled some interesting stats, but you need to take off your Richmond glasses and assess them without bias.

GAJ, from 2007 to 2018 (12 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 30.00
• Average goals per game: 1.20

During Dusty's very good 10 year period he only ONCE averaged over 30 disposals in a single year (in 2016, a year when his goals average was the lowest of his whole career at 0.41/game)

Matthews, from 1971 to 1984 (14 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 23.40
• Average goals per game: 2.83

GF performances including: 1971 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1976 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1978 (28 disposals + 4 goals), 1983 (16 disposals + 6 goals)

Dusty is possibly the greatest FINALS player. He is arguably the greatest GRAND FINAL player.
He just isn't in the discussion for overall greatest player. In fact, he's well down the list.

 

[Sirlemsip]

The Ablett’s were both selfish players, which was great for their individual stats and personal accolades, but not necessarily helpful in making their teammates around them better. Probably lucky goal assist stats weren’t around during GAS’s career.

And GAJ was famous for not wanting to play hurt or with painkillers even when the team needed him … again, great for your individual stats to only play when cherry ripe, but not always what the team needs. He also cracked the sads if not given the midfield time he wanted.

It’s like the cricketer who always plays for red ink to save their average, even if the team needs them to slog quick runs. Great for the stats, but not necessarily what the team needs.



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You might want to look up actual stats before making statements like that.

Goal assist stats comparison between Dusty and GAJ:

• Dusty average across career: 0.73 / game
• GAJ average across career: 0.76 / game

Ablett might not have wanted to play hurt, but he did finish up with 55 more AFL games to his name than Dusty did.

I do agree that GAS was definitely selfish.

 

[caveman72]

We aren't just talking about 'Great' players here. The discussion is about whether Dusty is the 'Greatest'.

Once again, I 100% agree that Dusty was a great player, easily in the top 10 players during the time he was active - potentially as high as number 3 behind GAJ and Buddy. This is debateable.

You have pulled some interesting stats, but you need to take off your Richmond glasses and assess them without bias.

GAJ, from 2007 to 2018 (12 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 30.00
• Average goals per game: 1.20

During Dusty's very good 10 year period he only ONCE averaged over 30 disposals in a single year (in 2016, a year when his goals average was the lowest of his whole career at 0.41/game)

Matthews, from 1971 to 1984 (14 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 23.40
• Average goals per game: 2.83

GF performances including: 1971 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1976 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1978 (28 disposals + 4 goals), 1983 (16 disposals + 6 goals)

Dusty is possibly the greatest FINALS player. He is arguably the greatest GRAND FINAL player.
He just isn't in the discussion for overall greatest player. In fact, he's well down the list.

Whats K.Bs finals stats. I'm not old enough to remember his early days but his final few years were pretty good and have read if the norm smith was around earlier he would probably won a few

 

[Sirlemsip]

Whats K.Bs finals stats. I'm not old enough to remember his early days but his final few years were pretty good and have read if the norm smith was around earlier he would probably won a few

KB's grand finals:
1967 - 18 Disposals, 3 goals
1969 - 24 disposals, 1 goal
1972 - 29 disposals, 0 goals (3 behinds)
1973 - 26 disposals, 1 goal
1974 - 27 disposals, 0 goals (3 behinds)
1980 - 21 disposals, 7 goals!
1982 - 12 disposals, 3 goals

 

[Sirlemsip]

In fact, the 1980's finals KB went absolutely insane:
QF: 22 disposals, 6 goals
SF: 17 disposals, 8 goals
GF: 21 disposals, 7 goals

 

[caveman72]

KB's grand finals:
1967 - 18 Disposals, 3 goals
1969 - 24 disposals, 1 goal
1972 - 29 disposals, 0 goals (3 behinds)
1973 - 26 disposals, 1 goal
1974 - 27 disposals, 0 goals (3 behinds)
1980 - 21 disposals, 7 goals!
1982 - 12 disposals, 3 goals

I remember 80 he was bloody good. Took his own ball that day

 

[caveman72]

In fact, the 1980's finals KB went absolutely insane:
QF: 22 disposals, 6 goals
SF: 17 disposals, 8 goals
GF: 21 disposals, 7 goals

Gary Ayres medalist? If it was around

 

[Sirlemsip]

Gary Ayres medalist? If it was around

Would have been an option to name it after him after that series.

 

[caveman72]

Would have been an option to name it after him after that series.

Probably should have. The Hungry Medalist has a nice ring to it

 

[Noidnadroj]

We aren't just talking about 'Great' players here. The discussion is about whether Dusty is the 'Greatest'.

Once again, I 100% agree that Dusty was a great player, easily in the top 10 players during the time he was active - potentially as high as number 3 behind GAJ and Buddy. This is debateable.

You have pulled some interesting stats, but you need to take off your Richmond glasses and assess them without bias.

GAJ, from 2007 to 2018 (12 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 30.00
• Average goals per game: 1.20

During Dusty's very good 10 year period he only ONCE averaged over 30 disposals in a single year (in 2016, a year when his goals average was the lowest of his whole career at 0.41/game)

Matthews, from 1971 to 1984 (14 year period):

• Average disposals per game: 23.40
• Average goals per game: 2.83

GF performances including: 1971 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1976 (21 disposals + 1 goal), 1978 (28 disposals + 4 goals), 1983 (16 disposals + 6 goals)

Dusty is possibly the greatest FINALS player. He is arguably the greatest GRAND FINAL player.
He just isn't in the discussion for overall greatest player. In fact, he's well down the list.

You said he had one amazing season and many ‘good’ seasons.

History tells you a single season averaging 24 and 1.2 is rarely done. Martin averaged that over a decade. So I was addressing the falsehood that Martin wasn’t ultra consistent and elite for a very long time … and uber elite from 2016-2020.

He had one year that was arguably as good as anyone ever, and another 8-9 x seasons that were absolutely elite - not ‘best ever’, but elite nonetheless. You don’t average 24+ and 1.2+, get 200+ Brownlow votes and finish top-3 in the B&F nine times if you’re not consistently elite.



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[South of the Yarra]

Neither Martin or KB come close to Gordon Coventry’s Finals Record.

111 goals in finals

• 5 Premierships
• 9 goals in a Grand Final
• 7 goals in a Grand final
• 66% of the goals in another Grand Final including doubling the opposition Goal Tally
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Preliminary Final
• 7 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 6 in a Preliminary Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 4 in a Preliminary Final
• 4 in a Grand Final
• 6 in a Semi Final
• 7 in a Prelim Final

 

[Sirlemsip]

You said he had one amazing season and many ‘good’ seasons.

History tells you a single season averaging 24 and 1.2 is rarely done. Martin averaged that over a decade. So I was addressing the falsehood that Martin wasn’t ultra consistent and elite for a very long time … and uber elite from 2016-2020.

He had one year that was arguably as good as anyone ever, and another 8-9 x seasons that were absolutely elite - not ‘best ever’, but elite nonetheless. You don’t average 24+ and 1.2+, get 200+ Brownlow votes and finish top-3 in the B&F nine times if you’re not consistently elite.



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If it is about the semantics of the word I chose - then yes, his other seasons were 'great' seasons (not just 'good').

it still doesn't change the fact that many other players around the same time also had 'greater' seasons in every year except 2017. Often, they were also considered more consistent players as well.

You have picked 'Disposals and goals per game' as your metric, but those aren't the only things that clubs and supporters value. What about contested marks? Tackles? Leadership?

In my view (and I suspect that of many others) there are a bunch of players that you can group together as the elite players of the competition during Dusty's career.

GAJ and Buddy are on a level of their own.
Then in the next rung down are all of: Judd, Dusty, Fyfe, Dangerfield and Neale.
Depending how long you want to make that list, and how far back you want to go, you could add a bunch more: Pendlebury, Goodes, Bontempelli, Cripps, Black, Voss, Buckley etc etc.

 

[TCS]

Neither Martin or KB come close to Gordon Coventry’s Finals Record.

111 goals in finals

• 5 Premierships
• 9 goals in a Grand Final
• 7 goals in a Grand final
• 66% of the goals in another Grand Final including doubling the opposition Goal Tally
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Preliminary Final
• 7 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 6 in a Preliminary Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 4 in a Preliminary Final
• 4 in a Grand Final
• 6 in a Semi Final
• 7 in a Prelim Final

What can you tell us about the level of Coventry's finals opponents?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Whats K.Bs finals stats. I'm not old enough to remember his early days but his final few years were pretty good and have read if the norm smith was around earlier he would probably won a few

KB finals averaged just under 22 disposals, 2.3 goals.

Grand Finals he averaged 22.5 disposals, 2.1 goals.

Matthews corresonding figures were:

All finals 20 disposals, 2.5 goals.

Grand Finals he averaged just under 20 disposals and 2.4 goals.


I saw loads of both of these players and these stats probably reflect their finals performances fairly. Bartlett got about 10% more disposals, Matthews had about 10% more scoreboard impact. Bartlett imo can be a bit under-rated in some circles but to my way of thinking Matthews was a better player. Neither would have had a significant amount of goal assists, certainly not near as many as someone like Dusty, who averaged over 1.1 per final, which is really high.

When you consider goals + assists & then adjust for the sigificantly lower scoring in Dusty's finals, I would think Dusty would shade Matthews for scoreboard impact if anything(just in finals.) And then if you also adjusted disposals to the era, Dusty is probably also shading Matthews.

In Grand Finals there isn't anyone who can match Dusty, as has been said.

Where Matthews elevates himself above Dusty statistically is in kicking loads of goals in home & away matches.

So when comparing Dusty to any of these players I think it mainly comes down to whether you want the better home & away player(many more games of much lesser importance) or finals(much fewer games but of much greater importance.)