Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Bradkli]

How you can criticise getting O'Meara after yesterday's game boggles the mind.

Yesterday's game from Omera was elite.. the issue is, that's how he should be playing every week for us.. that is what we paid big $$$ and trade currency for...Since coming to us, you can count on one hand how many "elite" games he has played...he is a B grade midfielder that every other team has..plays one excellent game every 5 weeks.. that's only 4-5 a year...which is simply not good enough...with his injury history, our trade for him in hindsight was deplorable and one that set us back, especially with the shape of our list...

whilst i really like wingard as well, our trade for him was just as bad...Wingard is the type of player you get when you are in a premiership window for 3-4 years... we won't be playing finals for at least the next 3 years, if not longer and won't be challenging for a flag for at least another 5-6 years, he will be retired by then..

 

[The Devils Advocate]

Dont you mean:
At least Hawthorn were in the premiership window and won 3 flags in a row.

Who had Essendon in the premiership window?

Are your eyes painted on?

Essendon and Hawthorn both thought they were in premierships windows but were completely wrong, which has them both in the wilderness IMO (along with North). At least Essendon had three first rounders last year, finally realising they were rebuilding

 

[HairyO]

Both Hill and Burton were worth Top 40 picks. There’s seven round 1 and 2 picks there that the Hawks have let go for JOM and Wingard when all is said and done. It’s an enormous price.

Picks in the 20s and 30s barely count for anything? Lol... Look what the Hawks recruiters have pulled out with later picks... what could they have done with seven more picks?

That’s the whole rebuild right there. Flushed away by two very poor trades.

7 round 1 and round 2 picks or.... 1 top 10 pick, 1 top 20 pick, 5 picks between 20 and 40.

We may have picked up a couple of brilliant players or may have gone bust with our picks.

 

[HairyO]

Are your eyes painted on?

So you thought Essendon were in a premiership window?

Based on what ?

Stringer, Smith and Shiel ?

 

[The Devils Advocate]

So you thought Essendon were in a premiership window?

Based on what ?

Go back and have a read.
Did I say I thought Essendon were in a window, or did I say that Essendon thought they were?

 

[TheFourPillars]

Yesterday's game from Omera was elite.. the issue is, that's how he should be playing every week for us.. that is what we paid big $$$ and trade currency for...Since coming to us, you can count on one hand how many "elite" games he has played...he is a B grade midfielder that every other team has..plays one excellent game every 5 weeks.. that's only 4-5 a year...which is simply not good enough...with his injury history, our trade for him in hindsight was deplorable and one that set us back, especially with the shape of our list...

whilst i really like wingard as well, our trade for him was just as bad...Wingard is the type of player you get when you are in a premiership window for 3-4 years... we won't be playing finals for at least the next 3 years, if not longer and won't be challenging for a flag for at least another 5-6 years, he will be retired by then..

Yesterday we went man on man which meant that JOM and shiels were not covering defensively for us. He was allowed to be a more attacking force and naturally delivered.

 

[HairyO]

Go back and have a read.
Did I say I thought Essendon were in a window, or did I say that Essendon thought they were?

So Essendon announced this?

Did you believe them when they said it ?

If it wasnt announced how would you know ?

 

[TheFourPillars]

Go back and have a read.
Did I say I thought Essendon were in a window, or did I say that Essendon thought they were?

True but we did finish 4th in 2018 and then have had one of the main reasons for our ascension go down with a season ending injury. It is what it is we will push along.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

So Essendon announced this?

Did you believe them when they said it ?

If it wasnt announced how would you know ?

Making trades or paying a lot in FA for players in/beyond their prime as opposed to making picks and developing players?
Goddard, Chapman, Kelly, Cooney, Shiel, Stringer, Saad, Smith.

Stringer was probably the only trade of a team that thinks it's rebuilding.

 

[QuietB]

2nd round pick barely counts for anything?

LOL, righteo mate

These are the second round picks from 2010 - 2017 - tell me which year is filled with gold;

2010 - Howe and Parker both good. Liberatore father son

2011 - Brad Hill good - who the Hawks incidentally got

2012 - Macintosh ok, Viney not available.

2013 - Merrett good, Nakervis good, Impey good.

2014 - Daniel Howe is the pick of this class

2015 - Dunlley very good, Hibberd ok

2016 - Shai Bolton very good, Tom Stewart very good - rest meh

2017 - Tim Kelly very good, Liam Ryan very good, rest meh

I have skipped 18/19/20 as they are too young to assess. Tom Berry is a riper in 2018, 2019 don't know yet, same for 2020.

So based on the above you are about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a very good footballer. There are two club Best and Fairest's amongst them in Parker and Merrett (excluding Viney - father son).

A 10% chance is marginally better than a raffle. The second round can GAGF

 

[Kozzie_Magic]

These are the second round picks from 2010 - 2017 - tell me which year is filled with gold;

2010 - Howe and Parker both good. Liberatore father son
View attachment 1095300
2011 - Brad Hill good - who the Hawks incidentally got
View attachment 1095301
2012 - Macintosh ok, Viney not available.
View attachment 1095304
2013 - Merrett good, Nakervis good, Impey good.
View attachment 1095305
2014 - Daniel Howe is the pick of this class
View attachment 1095306
2015 - Dunlley very good, Hibberd ok
View attachment 1095311
2016 - Shai Bolton very good, Tom Stewart very good - rest meh
View attachment 1095312
2017 - Tim Kelly very good, Liam Ryan very good, rest meh
View attachment 1095315
I have skipped 18/19/20 as they are too young to assess. Tom Berry is a riper in 2018, 2019 don't know yet, same for 2020.

So based on the above you are about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a very good footballer. There are two club Best and Fairest's amongst them in Parker and Merrett (excluding Viney - father son).

A 10% chance is marginally better than a raffle. The second round can GAGF

I love the fact that you went to all this work because of a post i made that took me about 5 seconds

 

[QuietB]

I love the fact that you went to all this work because of a post i made that took me about 5 seconds

Glad you concede I'm right

 

[Kozzie_Magic]

Glad you concede I'm right

Only an idiot would try to argue with a fool

 

[Bradkli]

These are the second round picks from 2010 - 2017 - tell me which year is filled with gold;

2010 - Howe and Parker both good. Liberatore father son
View attachment 1095300
2011 - Brad Hill good - who the Hawks incidentally got
View attachment 1095301
2012 - Macintosh ok, Viney not available.
View attachment 1095304
2013 - Merrett good, Nakervis good, Impey good.
View attachment 1095305
2014 - Daniel Howe is the pick of this class
View attachment 1095306
2015 - Dunlley very good, Hibberd ok
View attachment 1095311
2016 - Shai Bolton very good, Tom Stewart very good - rest meh
View attachment 1095312
2017 - Tim Kelly very good, Liam Ryan very good, rest meh
View attachment 1095315
I have skipped 18/19/20 as they are too young to assess. Tom Berry is a riper in 2018, 2019 don't know yet, same for 2020.

So based on the above you are about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a very good footballer. There are two club Best and Fairest's amongst them in Parker and Merrett (excluding Viney - father son).

A 10% chance is marginally better than a raffle. The second round can GAGF

You have no idea mate....give me 2 of the below over Jaeger Omera any day...

2017 second round:

- Oscar Allen is going to be one of the best key forwards in the league for the next decade
- Lachie Fogarty has been one of Carlton's 3 best players this season and looks to become a very good AFL player that can play midfield and half forward
- Noah Balta is already an elite defender and will be one of the best defenders in the AFL for the next decade
- Sam Taylor has shown great signs and is already a very good AFL defender- if he played for a VIC team, he would be spoken about a lot more
- Charlie Spargo has started this season extremely well for the Demons and will become a very good AFL player.
- Tom De Koning showed huge potential last season and looks like the perfect type of ruckman for the modern game. He will be a very solid AFL player
- Bailey Fritsch- a very class half forward that kicks goals. Can also play wing. A very serviceable AFL footballer for the next decade
- Tom McCartin- was brilliant when moved to defence last season and has started this season extremely well again. Will be a gun defender for the Swans for the next decade
- Patrick Naish- would be playing senior for a lot of other clubs. Unlucky for him he's at the Tigers.
- Charlie Constable- every time he plays, finds the footy with ease. Needs to get out of Geelong. At most other clubs, he plays every week and would be a very servicale player

 

[Blackhawk42]

These are the second round picks from 2010 - 2017 - tell me which year is filled with gold;

2010 - Howe and Parker both good. Liberatore father son
View attachment 1095300
2011 - Brad Hill good - who the Hawks incidentally got
View attachment 1095301
2012 - Macintosh ok, Viney not available.
View attachment 1095304
2013 - Merrett good, Nakervis good, Impey good.
View attachment 1095305
2014 - Daniel Howe is the pick of this class
View attachment 1095306
2015 - Dunlley very good, Hibberd ok
View attachment 1095311
2016 - Shai Bolton very good, Tom Stewart very good - rest meh
View attachment 1095312
2017 - Tim Kelly very good, Liam Ryan very good, rest meh
View attachment 1095315
I have skipped 18/19/20 as they are too young to assess. Tom Berry is a riper in 2018, 2019 don't know yet, same for 2020.

So based on the above you are about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a very good footballer. There are two club Best and Fairest's amongst them in Parker and Merrett (excluding Viney - father son).

A 10% chance is marginally better than a raffle. The second round can GAGF

Was not mentioning Jordan Ridley for 2016 just an oversight?

Or Matt Crouch in 2013?

 

[HeHateMe]

Was not mentioning Jordan Ridley for 2016 just an oversight?

Or Matt Crouch in 2013?

Touk Miller was missed as well.

 

[WWSD]

Hawks fwd line is atrocious.
Needs a lot of work.

Agree 100%.

Brockman aside, the Hawks forward-line needs some serious work. Hawthorn having three picks inside the top 30 in this years draft will help.

 

[WWSD]

B: Jiath (21), Grainger-Barras (18), Hardwick (24)

HB: Day (19), Sicily (25), Scrimshaw (22)

That’s as good a young defence as there is in the competition.

All Hawthorn need is two midfielders, one small forward and a key forward.

 

[Bradkli]

Agree 100%. Brockman aside, the Hawks forward-line needs some serious Three picks inside the top 30 in this years draft will help.

We desperately need Gunston back.. Gunston, Breust and Brockman is a good starting point...we just don't have the depth..guys like hanrahan and moore are simply not good enough and will never be..wingard would be great as a permanent forward, but our midfield is so weak and one dimensional that he has to often play the middle...

our biggest issue is lack of key forwards.. Mitch Lewis would be a ok number 3 at most other clubs, but would be a fringe player... Kozi would not get a game at just about any other club.. Tim O'Brien would have been delisted 4 years ago just about anywhere else..No other club has worse key forward depth than us and that includes North Melbourne, who at least have Nick Larkey.

I'm excited for what DGB will become for us, but our backline is by far our greatest strength...DGB was not the player we desperately needed...missing out on Logan McDonald is going to hurt for the next decade.

 

[QuietB]

You have no idea mate....give me 2 of the below over Jaeger Omera any day...

2017 second round:

- Oscar Allen is going to be one of the best key forwards in the league for the next decade
- Lachie Fogarty has been one of Carlton's 3 best players this season and looks to become a very good AFL player that can play midfield and half forward
- Noah Balta is already an elite defender and will be one of the best defenders in the AFL for the next decade
- Sam Taylor has shown great signs and is already a very good AFL defender- if he played for a VIC team, he would be spoken about a lot more
- Charlie Spargo has started this season extremely well for the Demons and will become a very good AFL player.
- Tom De Koning showed huge potential last season and looks like the perfect type of ruckman for the modern game. He will be a very solid AFL player
- Bailey Fritsch- a very class half forward that kicks goals. Can also play wing. A very serviceable AFL footballer for the next decade
- Tom McCartin- was brilliant when moved to defence last season and has started this season extremely well again. Will be a gun defender for the Swans for the next decade
- Patrick Naish- would be playing senior for a lot of other clubs. Unlucky for him he's at the Tigers.
- Charlie Constable- every time he plays, finds the footy with ease. Needs to get out of Geelong. At most other clubs, he plays every week and would be a very servicale player

Was not mentioning Jordan Ridley for 2016 just an oversight?

Or Matt Crouch in 2013?

Touk Miller was missed as well.

Tell me when one of those turns into Dusty Martin or Paddy Dangerfield.

 

[La Dispute]

These are the second round picks from 2010 - 2017 - tell me which year is filled with gold;

2010 - Howe and Parker both good. Liberatore father son
View attachment 1095300
2011 - Brad Hill good - who the Hawks incidentally got
View attachment 1095301
2012 - Macintosh ok, Viney not available.
View attachment 1095304
2013 - Merrett good, Nakervis good, Impey good.
View attachment 1095305
2014 - Daniel Howe is the pick of this class
View attachment 1095306
2015 - Dunlley very good, Hibberd ok
View attachment 1095311
2016 - Shai Bolton very good, Tom Stewart very good - rest meh
View attachment 1095312
2017 - Tim Kelly very good, Liam Ryan very good, rest meh
View attachment 1095315
I have skipped 18/19/20 as they are too young to assess. Tom Berry is a riper in 2018, 2019 don't know yet, same for 2020.

So based on the above you are about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a very good footballer. There are two club Best and Fairest's amongst them in Parker and Merrett (excluding Viney - father son).

A 10% chance is marginally better than a raffle. The second round can GAGF

I love how you've made all these selective comments but in 2014 made mention of spud Howe while somehow missing Jack Steele, Touk Miller and Brayden Maynard.

Funny stuff.

 

[hawkman]

I love how you've made all these selective comments but in 2014 made mention of spud Howe while somehow missing Jack Steele, Touk Miller and Brayden Maynard.

Funny stuff.

Jack Steele was an academy selection so never really available. The other 2 are good solid players though

 

[La Dispute]

Jack Steele was an academy selection so never really available. The other 2 are good solid players though

Not really the point though is it, if we're looking at the overall quality of players taken in the second round.

Touk Miller and Maynard are more than just 'solid players' - both top 5 for their sides, Touk is one of the best defensive mids in the league, Maynard is one of the better mid-sized defenders.

That whole post is a pisstake though 'Hibberd OK' for the 2015 draft - genuine nuffie contribution.

 

[La Dispute]

B: Jiath (21), Grainger-Barras (18), Hardwick (24)

HB: Day (19), Sicily (25), Scrimshaw (22)

That’s as good a young defence as there is in the competition.

All Hawthorn need is two midfielders, one small forward and a key forward.

Pretty specific criteria though.

Not sure Sicily at 25 counts as young either, and he wont play another game until he's 26.

 

[Joao]

I'm not sure what is being argued here? Hawks tried and failed didn't they? So maybe they could in theory but they certainly didn't.

Also think the Wingard trade was good when you factor in Burton's hamstrings and general meh levels of play since.