Opinion Collingwood Almanac 2016

[pugsville]

Y
Olango can leap, but doesn't find enough of it around the ground or do enough of anything else. He doesn't cover the ground like Blicavs. He isn't that endurance athlete or accumulator.

thats the problem with highlights vis you don't really get a sense of their game overall.Looked to have a very good leap, and mobility looked good, but no idea of endurance a, involvement or game reading. I don't follow the U18, a read the draft apocrypha in the press/on line and look at a few clips, it's opinion from the very cheap seats.

Ben Long where do you have him?

 

[jmac70]

Disagree, this is exactly the time you trade him out.
Similar to Langdon's first season, Smith's value is at his peak, with little projected improvement from this point.
If we can somehow package 45+Smith for a pick in the 25-30 range that would be excellent imo.

Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned but I still think club spirit is important. Smith worked his arse off this year for the club, trading him now would send the wrong message and damage team culture, IMO.

 

[Knightmare]

You think Brisbane will accept 3/4 fringe players for their captain and they give us picks too?

I mean I know they aren't that smart up there but really.

Imagine Pendlebury is up for trade and Brisbane are offering us Bell Robinson and Mcstay.

Rockliff is a very good player

Given the trade is being spoken about seriously and with Witts and Frost being the two mentioned players so far that Brisbane have long had an interest in. The conversation starts from there.

Then as a third piece Langdon is a very good component as one of the more highly regarded back flankers in the game.

Rockliff isn't regarded in the category as Pendlebury, not having the same ball use, anticipation or evasion through traffic. I don't expect anyone would offer much more for Rockliff with all three of Langdon, Witts and Frost very solid players who would be clear best 22 for Brisbane, with each younger than Rockliff.

If I was Brisbane, I wouldn't trade Rockliff. I never believe in trading the best player in a deal. But AFL clubs time and time again have moved these kinds of players and will continue to.

 

[Knightmare]

thats the problem with highlights vis you don't really get a sense of their game overall.Looked to have a very good leap, and mobility looked good, but no idea of endurance a, involvement or game reading. I don't follow the U18, a read the draft apocrypha in the press/on line and look at a few clips, it's opinion from the very cheap seats.

Ben Long where do you have him?

Ben Long looks likely to go in the national draft and could come onto the radar as early as the second round. He is capable at both ends and draftable without being one of my preferred choices mid draft on value proposition.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

So you'd be happy to trade a bunch of fringe players for Brisbane's captain

Come on KM. That's such an amateur Bigfooty trade.

"We'll give you Oxley Keeffe Frost Witts for Rockliff because 4 bad players equals the value of 1 good player".

You have to give quality to get quality

Kappa usually that is correct like for like, more or less.
However, if Brisbane, for what ever reason want to move him on (fresh start and all that) then they may have to accept something a bit less than optimum.
I think Witts is a type they would need so in essence he'd be the carrot and the rest is the dressing.
If Brisbane will only part with him for high value, then we are not in the hunt.

Suspect, he's not going to move out of Brisbane, but if he does, suggest it's because the new broom wants to sweep him out.

 

[pugsville]

So with Witts, frost and Marsh set to be leaving collingwood seems to need to recruit a ruck and defender in the afl/lower leagues ready to go


whats the options?

Rucks - Minson? Vardy? (cost?) Lobbe (port) Darcy Camerosn (wafl)
defs - Clurey (port) Eric Mackenzie, Tyler Kietal (wafl)

 

[Knightmare]

So with Witts, frost and Marsh set to be leaving collingwood seems to need to recruit a ruck and defender in the afl/lower leagues ready to go


whats the options?

Rucks - Minson? Vardy? (cost?) Lobbe (port) Darcy Camerosn (wafl)
defs - Clurey (port) Eric Mackenzie, Tyler Kietal (wafl)

KPD I'd trade for Mackenzie. He is terrific and someone I'd move Marsh in a direct trade for.

Tyler Keitel as a rookie I also like and would be open to given how strong his season was in the WAFL.

From GWS Jeremy Finlayson I would pose as a possible if he can be traded for cheaply enough. He could be something like a Marsh replacement (in terms of age/quality - but is a genuine key defender) and improved rapidly over second half of season and seems very developable.

In saying that though I think Mitch Brown (Nathan's brother) may be joining Collingwood.

As for rucks. I'm not enthusiastic about anyone in particular (and frankly would rather Witts stays). Darcy Cameron as a rookie is a plausible consideration and could be a fall-back option. Lobbe and Vardy I don't want - Lobbe for lack of performance and likely associated expense to trade for, Vardy for lack of durability. Minson as possible consideration though again only would consider as a rookie if he is thought to be able to provide good veteran leadership. I'd probably overall just look into the international pool of ruckmen, take one to develop and ride out the season with Grundy, Cox and then if require Gault and White who both can play some ruck.

 

[Justlokan]

KPD I'd trade for Mackenzie. He is terrific and someone I'd move Marsh in a direct trade for.

Tyler Keitel as a rookie I also like and would be open to given how strong his season was in the WAFL.

From GWS Jeremy Finlayson I would pose as a possible if he can be traded for cheaply enough. He could be something like a Marsh replacement (in terms of age/quality - but is a genuine key defender) and improved rapidly over second half of season and seems very developable.

In saying that though I think Mitch Brown (Nathan's brother) may be joining Collingwood.

As for rucks. I'm not enthusiastic about anyone in particular (and frankly would rather Witts stays). Darcy Cameron as a rookie is a plausible consideration and could be a fall-back option. Lobbe and Vardy I don't want - Lobbe for lack of performance and likely associated expense to trade for, Vardy for lack of durability. Minson as possible consideration though again only would consider as a rookie if he is thought to be able to provide good veteran leadership. I'd probably overall just look into the international pool of ruckmen, take one to develop and ride out the season with Grundy, Cox and then if require Gault and White who both can play some ruck.

Assuming we don't replenish our KPD stocks (not a fan of Mitch Brown) do we take inspiration from the Eagles of 2015 and restructure our backline in the same way? WC lost their talls before the start of the season and were highly dependent on a banged up McGovern.
I recall they used Yeo and Wellingham to good effect as they regularly zoned off against taller forward lines

A taller mid such as Crisp can be used to similar effect along with Scharenberg. We'll still need someone like Keefe to help out against the bigger forwards like Jenkins, Tippett, Daniher, Patton - but if our defence is well-drilled enough (a big if) I can't see why we can't succeed despite our loss of KPDs

 

[Knightmare]

Assuming we don't replenish our KPD stocks (not a fan of Mitch Brown) do we take inspiration from the Eagles of 2015 and restructure our backline in the same way? WC lost their talls before the start of the season and were highly dependent on a banged up McGovern.
I recall they used Yeo and Wellingham to good effect as they regularly zoned off against taller forward lines

A taller mid such as Crisp can be used to similar effect along with Scharenberg. We'll still need someone like Keefe to help out against the bigger forwards like Jenkins, Tippett, Daniher, Patton - but if our defence is well-drilled enough (a big if) I can't see why we can't succeed despite our loss of KPDs

Scharenberg can play key defence as needed. He has as a junior.

Crisp I don't feel would be suited as a key defender, though off a back flank he could be someone to trial if we need another number.

Overall I think we'll be ok. Hopefully Brown stays and a deal can be reached as he remains best 22. But gaining Keeffe and having White who I feel is a better key defender than key forward (off the small glimpse shown early last year) I feel we can be adequately covered with Scharenberg another who can split over from 3rd tall to key defence, as with Marsh the last couple of seasons.

Eric Mackenzie I feel would be worth trading for (I agree Mitch Brown isn't the best solution as a slightly worse version of Nathan). Tyler Keitel also could as a rookie be considered as probably the more promising of the state league key defenders.

If White switches back (which I hope he does) I'd draft Brett Eddy with the clubs final rookie pick to add to the depth in the front half. Eddy is by far and away the best state league key forward and can step into the AFL side for 22 games if needed and perform to a level I'd expect slightly better than White.

 

[Chameleon75]

You think Brisbane will accept 3/4 fringe players for their captain and they give us picks too?

I mean I know they aren't that smart up there but really.

Imagine Pendlebury is up for trade and Brisbane are offering us Bell Robinson and Mcstay.

Rockliff is a very good player.


Just out of curiosity, when was the last time in AFL history a trade happened involving 3-4 mediocre players for 1 great player?

Lockett I think, complicated trade involving st Kilda, Sydney, hawthorn and Fremantle. Saints gave up Lockett and got 5 players and 2 picks if I recall correctly.

 

[Prochard123]

Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned but I still think club spirit is important. Smith worked his arse off this year for the club, trading him now would send the wrong message and damage team culture, IMO.

That's a good point. If we always traded players away after having a career best season it might discourage others from working hard. However, my point is that if we were to trade them at all, it should be after one of their better seasons to maximize their trade value

 

[watt price tully]

Scharenberg can play key defence as needed. He has as a junior.

...........

Hi Knightmare,

It seems to me that a lot of people are placing Scharenberg right up there with scant evidence of his actual footy.

Yes he was very good & highly rated as a junior a few years ago.

However he has had:

1. Major injuries
2. Very little experience in AFL
3. Little opportunity to show what he can do
4. & massive expectations

Because he played as a junior is hardly a basis to say he can play key defence as needed IMO.

For me he's basically an untried rookie with potential. I can't say I was over-whelmed in the few games he did play & thought he lacked a yard.

Having said that, I hope he turns out to be what Hine & others thought he would be when the drafted him.

Cheers WPT

 

[Knightmare]

Hi Knightmare,

It seems to me that a lot of people are placing Scharenberg right up there with scant evidence of his actual footy.

Yes he was very good & highly rated as a junior a few years ago.

However he has had:

1. Major injuries
2. Very little experience in AFL
3. Little opportunity to show what he can do
4. & massive expectations

Because he played as a junior is hardly a basis to say he can play key defence as needed IMO.

For me he's basically an untried rookie with potential. I can't say I was over-whelmed in the few games he did play & thought he lacked a yard.

Having said that, I hope he turns out to be what Hine & others thought he would be when the drafted him.

Cheers WPT

All valid points.

In saying that I liked the brief look of Scharenberg through the VFL and at AFL level. Good numbers, used it reliably by foot and read the play well and took enough intercept marks. I saw enough to be satisfied with his game.

Given his health history he can't be relied on obviously to fill a position but if he is then he is another option.

Assuming a full preseason I feel he can push for a best 22 position and get pretty close to if not push in there. He can from a role perspective down back be something like a Marsh replacement, albeit with a different game - less athletic but better footballer in other categories.

He gives us some options down back. Can be used as a back flanker, 3rd tall or a CHB if we want to go smaller. I'm not going to discount him.

 

[Prochard123]

Hey KM,
at this stage, with the inclusion of Mayne, WHE and Wells, what would your round 1 best 22 be next year?

 

[Knightmare]

Hey KM,
at this stage, with the inclusion of Mayne, WHE and Wells, what would your round 1 best 22 be next year?

I'd have Wells and Mayne but not WHE inside the clubs best 22 at this stage.

After the conclusion of the trade period would be a better time to put forward my projected best 22 with still a lot of Collingwood player movement pending - Cloke/Marsh/Witts/Frost. Williams may go, although the talk seems to have slowed with him so he may well stay. Greenwood may not remain. Aish I've even seen something on the club looking at moving. Brown remains unsigned etc.

Just too many names still questionable or not clearly at Collingwood next year to reasonably project a best 22 for next season yet.

Ask me again after the trade period is complete and I'll list my best 22.

 

[Babylove]

I'd have Wells and Mayne but not WHE inside the clubs best 22 at this stage.

After the conclusion of the trade period would be a better time to put forward my projected best 22 with still a lot of Collingwood player movement pending - Cloke/Marsh/Witts/Frost. Williams may go, although the talk seems to have slowed with him so he may well stay. Greenwood may not remain. Aish I've even seen something on the club looking at moving. Brown remains unsigned etc.

Just too many names still questionable or not clearly at Collingwood next year to reasonably project a best 22 for next season yet.

Ask me again after the trade period is complete and I'll list my best 22.

I wouldn't worry about the Aish rumours. The only journo running with it is Barrett. He started it out as a story that the Pies were shopping around Greenwood and Aish. Dekka came out and promptly, and called categorically stated that Aish (and De Goey) were required players which had been communicated to their respective managers in the wake of the rumours. Given Dekka's penchant for playing his cards close to his chest no one doubted it. Now Barrett is running with the angle that Gubby went rogue from the selection committee and threw their names out to a club who didn't want them without consulting anyone (which sounds less likely than his original story).

 

[Knightmare]

I wouldn't worry about the Aish rumours. The only journo running with it is Barrett. He started it out as a story that the Pies were shopping around Greenwood and Aish. Dekka came out and promptly, and called categorically stated that Aish (and De Goey) were required players which had been communicated to their respective managers in the wake of the rumours. Given Dekka's penchant for playing his cards close to his chest no one doubted it. Now Barrett is running with the angle that Gubby went rogue from the selection committee and threw their names tout to a club who didn't want them without consulting anyone (which sounds less likely than his original story).

I have to agree that the timing with Aish makes no sense. He has limited value after struggling so badly early season and showing more glimpses than a complete game late season. Players, particularly players you pay for almost always get more than a year.

 

[jdpie]

Hey KM,
With the news that we are 3 KPD's in the negative who are the couple that may be around our first selection (with a proviso that they are almost ready to play now) ?

 

[Justlokan]

Scharenberg can play key defence as needed. He has as a junior.

Crisp I don't feel would be suited as a key defender, though off a back flank he could be someone to trial if we need another number.

Overall I think we'll be ok. Hopefully Brown stays and a deal can be reached as he remains best 22. But gaining Keeffe and having White who I feel is a better key defender than key forward (off the small glimpse shown early last year) I feel we can be adequately covered with Scharenberg another who can split over from 3rd tall to key defence, as with Marsh the last couple of seasons.

Eric Mackenzie I feel would be worth trading for (I agree Mitch Brown isn't the best solution as a slightly worse version of Nathan). Tyler Keitel also could as a rookie be considered as probably the more promising of the state league key defenders.

If White switches back (which I hope he does) I'd draft Brett Eddy with the clubs final rookie pick to add to the depth in the front half. Eddy is by far and away the best state league key forward and can step into the AFL side for 22 games if needed and perform to a level I'd expect slightly better than White.

Well Brown is gone and assuming we don't get McKenzie, it's got me thinking that Hine and co have a replacement in mind. Maybe a state league type. Not inclined to rely on Scharenberg as it would be folly to place such a heavy burden while he's building his confidence.

Your thoughts on White in the back half are intriguing. Do you think he has the smarts to deal with the better forwards?

 

[Knightmare]

Hey KM,
With the news that we are 3 KPD's in the negative who are the couple that may be around our first selection (with a proviso that they are almost ready to play now) ?

No immediate options around our first selection.

Brennan Cox may be the better option around the second or third round, as arguably the most developable of the key defenders.

If we want someone more immediate Tyler Keitel as a mature ager via the rookie draft is probably that right balance where he has performed very well in the WAFL at league level this year but is still very young and is improving well from year to year.

 

[Knightmare]

Well Brown is gone and assuming we don't get McKenzie, it's got me thinking that Hine and co have a replacement in mind. Maybe a state league type. Not inclined to rely on Scharenberg as it would be folly to place such a heavy burden while he's building his confidence.

Your thoughts on White in the back half are intriguing. Do you think he has the smarts to deal with the better forwards?

White I feel has his best chance to play his best footy down back.

He seemed to have the right balance between intercepting/rebounding and staying with his opponent.

He has the strength and athleticism to theoretically be able to handle a key position post and I'm open to seeing more of it. He has the experience playing at AFL level v key defenders, so I think he'll pick it up and be able to adapt as he seemed to from the early season glimpse we saw.

As with Leon Davis shifting back, while I'm not expecting White to become an All-Australian, I see it bringing out the greatest level of consistency in his play.

 

[Knightmare]

Sounding like Mitch Brown will join the club.

If so... Problem solved and adequate depth achieved.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

White I feel has his best chance to play his best footy down back.

He seemed to have the right balance between intercepting/rebounding and staying with his opponent.

He has the strength and athleticism to theoretically be able to handle a key position post and I'm open to seeing more of it. He has the experience playing at AFL level v key defenders, so I think he'll pick it up and be able to adapt as he seemed to from the early season glimpse we saw.

As with Leon Davis shifting back, while I'm not expecting White to become an All-Australian, I see it bringing out the greatest level of consistency in his play.

I'm of the few that think, White could be an acceptable type down back. He certainly has the athletic prowess.
I find his weakness is what comes across as not being football smart. But he is what he is.

One smaller advantage he does have if he goes down back is, that he always be thrown forward to pinch hit at times. (Plus the versatility to play some ruck here and there.)

 

[Quicky]

Sounding like Mitch Brown will join the club.

If so... Problem solved and adequate depth achieved.

So we pick up the less talented and durable brother? Strange decision if that plays out.

 

[Quicky]

I'm of the few that think, White could be an acceptable type down back. He certainly has the athletic prowess.
I find his weakness is what comes across as not being football smart. But he is what he is.

One smaller advantage he does have if he goes down back is, that he always be thrown forward to pinch hit at times. (Plus the versatility to play some ruck here and there.)

I reckon White has the ability to play KPD to a high standard. I saw his VFL games early season and he was our best defender. He has a good mix of intercept marking, athleticism and foot skills to be handy. But it'd be interesting to see if that translates to AFL. I also wonder if he is consistent enough for it. There's also the flow on effects for our forward line considering we've seen the last of Cloke.