Opinion Collingwood Almanac 2016

[Jelly Bean]

D

Hi KM,

Bored here... Thought I'd take a look at the list in terms of who we have that were first round picks. It is interesting when people talk about GWS being a team full of first rounders, curious as to how we compared. Of course first round does not mean the player will turn out any good...

Jordan De Goey (Pick 5, 2014)
Darcy Moore (Pick 9, 2014)
James Aish (Pick 7, 2013)
Matthew Scharenberg (Pick 6, 2013)
Brodie Grundy (Pick 18, 2012)
Tim Broomhead (Pick 20, 2012 - yes this was technically first round that year)
WHE (Pick 4, 2011)
Taylor Adams (Pick 4, 2011)
Steele Sidebottom (Pick 11, 2008)
Ben Reid (Pick 8, 2006)
Scott Pendlebury (Pick 5, 2005)
Travis Varcoe (Pick 15, 2005)
Lynden Dunn (Pick 15, 2004)

This feels pretty shallow to me?

Daniel Wells.... 8 top 10 picks is not bad.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Now it all comes down to astute selection with a good dose of injury luck going forward

 

[TradeDraft]

Knightmare what do you think of our Trade Period?

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare what do you think of our Trade Period?

Poor.

More so due to players lost and poor value gained. Opportunities not taken - ie. Brent Harvey among others who were gettable but seemingly not of interest.

Cloke, Williams, Witts, Brown, Frost all are bad losses and not players for what we gained that I would have given up.

Wells and Mayne are good gets but we've overpaid on such a level that I would not have signed either.

Hoskin-Elliott is a developable player but we still paid more than I would have to get him. Has good speed/endurance/leaping/marking overhead but doesn't find or win enough of the ball.

The only of our moves I like is Lynden Dunn who is a very capable key defender who given the losses of Brown and Frost will be a best 22 key defender and good enough.

My expectation even after what has been a poor trade period is we make the finals with our list still good enough for that.

But what has change is our key position and ruck stocks are weakened and the back end of our best 22 also is much weaker, with our depth overall not as strong as it was this season. From a long term list build perspective we haven't helped ourselves.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Poor.

More so due to players lost and poor value gained. Opportunities not taken - ie. Brent Harvey among others who were gettable but seemingly not of interest.

Cloke, Williams, Witts, Brown, Frost all are bad losses and not players for what we gained that I would have given up.

Wells and Mayne are good gets but we've overpaid on such a level that I would not have signed either.

Hoskin-Elliott is a developable player but we still paid more than I would have to get him. Has good speed/endurance/leaping/marking overhead but doesn't find or win enough of the ball.

The only of our moves I like is Lynden Dunn who is a very capable key defender who given the losses of Brown and Frost will be a best 22 key defender and good enough.

My expectation even after what has been a poor trade period is we make the finals with our list still good enough for that.

But what has change is our key position and ruck stocks are weakened and the back end of our best 22 also is much weaker, with our depth overall not as strong as it was this season. From a long term list build perspective we haven't helped ourselves.

Just at aguess,do you think we as a club seem to overpay (consistently) and under sell (consistently).
I may be wrong, but feel Collingwood seems to be consistent these last few years in getting the wrong pineapple end. Sometimes sure, it well worth paying a bit much, eg a Treloar.
But seems to be other clubs do us in a bit.

Or is that imagination?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

ps what we got for Witts?
That's my biggest upset.
A club wants a number one ruck, they should pay something of some value.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Have to say I agree with a lot of this.

- We've paid a lot for Wells (duration and annual value) and Mayne both, and arguably overpaid.
- I'd have been pushing to get a Mitchell / Lewis arrangement going, and would still offer a contract to Harvey, Dal Santo, Enright tomorrow.
- In a market where Carlton got some high end junior talent for not much from GWS, we had to pass on only a little bit more for WHE
- I think we would have got more value for Witts if we had have traded him last year (as was on the cards) and would have been able to bring Kruezer in through FA
- Despite all the talent moving this year and last, we have still been the only club who has had to pay two first rounders for a single trade (both pick 7...).
- Really disappointed in the return we got for Marley - the end of his 2015 season was outstanding (close to AA level).
- If Marsh doesn't come back, and we couldn't secure a trade for him, that is really disappointing. We either delist (bad result) or keep him on the list for a year and trade away next year. Look at the value reduction of McCarthy after he sat out a year, Freo offered GWS two first round picks for him, and this year got him for much much less
- Some of the value of other players moving that we didn't get involved in was disappointing

 

[7ft Cox]

Have to say I agree with a lot of this.

- We've paid a lot for Wells (duration and annual value) and Mayne both, and arguably overpaid.
- I'd have been pushing to get a Mitchell / Lewis arrangement going, and would still offer a contract to Harvey, Dal Santo, Enright tomorrow.
- In a market where Carlton got some high end junior talent for not much from GWS, we had to pass on only a little bit more for WHE
- I think we would have got more value for Witts if we had have traded him last year (as was on the cards) and would have been able to bring Kruezer in through FA
- Despite all the talent moving this year and last, we have still been the only club who has had to pay two first rounders for a single trade (both pick 7...).
- Really disappointed in the return we got for Marley - the end of his 2015 season was outstanding (close to AA level).
- If Marsh doesn't come back, and we couldn't secure a trade for him, that is really disappointing. We either delist (bad result) or keep him on the list for a year and trade away next year. Look at the value reduction of McCarthy after he sat out a year, Freo offered GWS two first round picks for him, and this year got him for much much less
- Some of the value of other players moving that we didn't get involved in was disappointing

On Wells I agree we may have paid overs. Time will tell. Unfortunately his time is limited
Mayne - a poster on BF claiming to be in the know said the final value was 1.5million and heavily front loaded. If that's the case then only the duration concerns me
Lewis picked his go to club and it wasn't us
Carltons GWS recruits from last year have not shown anything. If GWS was ok with letting them go then I suspect the new batch will be the same.
Agree on Witts. My Carlton mate reckons Kruezer is cooked like D. Thomas
Treloar well worth when you consider his age and capability. We may not have gotten 2 firsts in the Beams trade but it was of similar value. Judd was worse.
Marley must have been a bad bad boy

 

[Harry O]

Poor.

More so due to players lost and poor value gained. Opportunities not taken - ie. Brent Harvey among others who were gettable but seemingly not of interest.

Cloke, Williams, Witts, Brown, Frost all are bad losses and not players for what we gained that I would have given up.

Wells and Mayne are good gets but we've overpaid on such a level that I would not have signed either.

Hoskin-Elliott is a developable player but we still paid more than I would have to get him. Has good speed/endurance/leaping/marking overhead but doesn't find or win enough of the ball.

The only of our moves I like is Lynden Dunn who is a very capable key defender who given the losses of Brown and Frost will be a best 22 key defender and good enough.

My expectation even after what has been a poor trade period is we make the finals with our list still good enough for that.

But what has change is our key position and ruck stocks are weakened and the back end of our best 22 also is much weaker, with our depth overall not as strong as it was this season. From a long term list build perspective we haven't helped ourselves.

Disagree with most of that. Cloke and Brown look cooked. Doubt they will play many senior games at their new homes.
Marley is seriously flawed as a player. Can't have such a poor kick in the backline the way the game is played these days. Even so we all know there are other reasons why even Richmond would not touch him. (My mail was strong on this many months ago). Frost is an ok stopper but if we want to progress the modern defender should offer more than this especially if they are a chronic fumbler at ground level.
Witts - would be nice to retain but he was always going to be a number 2 to Grundy. Thought he was worth around pick 30 so to get pick 37 points for him was not far off the mark.

Given we got Wells and Mayne for free not sure how we overpaid for them? I suppose you are saying cap space but the Mayne deal is only media speculation and guess work

 

[daicosdemis]

Poor.

More so due to players lost and poor value gained. Opportunities not taken - ie. Brent Harvey among others who were gettable but seemingly not of interest.

Cloke, Williams, Witts, Brown, Frost all are bad losses and not players for what we gained that I would have given up.

Wells and Mayne are good gets but we've overpaid on such a level that I would not have signed either.

Hoskin-Elliott is a developable player but we still paid more than I would have to get him. Has good speed/endurance/leaping/marking overhead but doesn't find or win enough of the ball.

The only of our moves I like is Lynden Dunn who is a very capable key defender who given the losses of Brown and Frost will be a best 22 key defender and good enough.

My expectation even after what has been a poor trade period is we make the finals with our list still good enough for that.

But what has change is our key position and ruck stocks are weakened and the back end of our best 22 also is much weaker, with our depth overall not as strong as it was this season. From a long term list build perspective we haven't helped ourselves.

Whilst I do agree that we tend to overpay incoming players, it's not an issue if they deliver.
I think us Collingwood supporters overate our players consistently. If you want a true indication of the value of our outgoing players, all you have to do is look at what 17 other clubs were prepared to offer for them and how keen our club was to let them go.

 

[BPikkers]

It would be good to know which players we were actually into, and if there were any young kids, why did they not select us?

Going into this draft we were very limited in what we had to trade. It seems like we have made a commitment to both Brown and Daicos and if that's the case and it prevented us from doing more, then I'm ok.

However, it seems to me that we lack imagination when trading. Whether it be packing picks to move up, or to target players who aren't so obviously available. Last year was pretty much the same.

 

[Justlokan]

Have to say I agree with a lot of this.

- We've paid a lot for Wells (duration and annual value) and Mayne both, and arguably overpaid.
- I'd have been pushing to get a Mitchell / Lewis arrangement going, and would still offer a contract to Harvey, Dal Santo, Enright tomorrow.
- In a market where Carlton got some high end junior talent for not much from GWS, we had to pass on only a little bit more for WHE
- I think we would have got more value for Witts if we had have traded him last year (as was on the cards) and would have been able to bring Kruezer in through FA
- Despite all the talent moving this year and last, we have still been the only club who has had to pay two first rounders for a single trade (both pick 7...).
- Really disappointed in the return we got for Marley - the end of his 2015 season was outstanding (close to AA level).
- If Marsh doesn't come back, and we couldn't secure a trade for him, that is really disappointing. We either delist (bad result) or keep him on the list for a year and trade away next year. Look at the value reduction of McCarthy after he sat out a year, Freo offered GWS two first round picks for him, and this year got him for much much less
- Some of the value of other players moving that we didn't get involved in was disappointing

On Wells I agree we may have paid overs. Time will tell. Unfortunately his time is limited
Mayne - a poster on BF claiming to be in the know said the final value was 1.5million and heavily front loaded. If that's the case then only the duration concerns me
Lewis picked his go to club and it wasn't us
Carltons GWS recruits from last year have not shown anything. If GWS was ok with letting them go then I suspect the new batch will be the same.
Agree on Witts. My Carlton mate reckons Kruezer is cooked like D. Thomas
Treloar well worth when you consider his age and capability. We may not have gotten 2 firsts in the Beams trade but it was of similar value. Judd was worse.
Marley must have been a bad bad boy

• Mayne - not happy with the length of contract either but if we have heavily frontloaded that's not an issue. And given that he's fairly robust he'll provide value as a VFL-playing mentor in his last year.
• Agreed about the quality of Carlton's GWS recruits. None of them are top notch with the exception of Plowman. Marchbank could be really good but early days.
• Witts didn't want to leave last year so no point wondering why we didn't get better trade value back then. And the reality is that despite our bias about his potential his body of work was only in the VFL. I can't recall one AFL game were he starred. Serviceable yes, starred no. Would you give up a pick in the 20's for him? Especially when those picks can be better used for other trades? eg Prestia.
• totally agree about Treloar. It still staggers me that he didn't win the Copeland
• Forgetting off-field issues the loss of Marley is minimal. I won't miss the feeling of dread whenever he took the kick ins. yes I loved his pace and tenacity but you've got to ask yourself - would he get into Hawthorn's side with his disposal skills? Then why keep him?

It would be good to know which players we were actually into, and if there were any young kids, why did they not select us?

Going into this draft we were very limited in what we had to trade. It seems like we have made a commitment to both Brown and Daicos and if that's the case and it prevented us from doing more, then I'm ok.

However, it seems to me that we lack imagination when trading. Whether it be packing picks to move up, or to target players who aren't so obviously available. Last year was pretty much the same.

• I thought we did well last year - we had our targets and we got them. TBH Howe, Aish and Treloar each delivered to expectations.
• And I'm not sure what else we could've done this trade period. Unlike Hawthorn we didn't have a first rounder to trade in order to grab T Mitchell. And there was no one of value worth giving up another future 1st rounder for (we wouldn't have gotten Geelong's exemption anyway).
• Not sure why packaging picks is important given that our strategy was clearly to have enough points to grab Daicos/CBrown and to ensure we kept a presence in the top 30.

I think it's important to remember that flags aren't won by bringing in wholesale changes through the trade period. Geelong tried it last year and all they got was a Brownlow. I prefer to take the approach of Hawthorn who target for need (Lake, Frawley, Burgoyne, Hale) while quietly refreshing the list with draftees (the 2016 Hawthorn trade period being the exception). Ditto with the Dogs.
Clearly our need is around good ball users (Wells, WHE)) defensive pressure up forward (Mayne) and KPDs. Dunn is a stopgap but much much better than Frost.
I tend not to have rose-coloured glasses but honestly think our trade performance has been pretty good ie we get what we want without losing any players of note (apart from Heater, no one else has gone on to perform at their next club).
Our issue isn't getting the players in - the concerns start when they meet the coaches and sports science team.

 

[Knightmare]

Whilst I do agree that we tend to overpay incoming players, it's not an issue if they deliver.
I think us Collingwood supporters overate our players consistently. If you want a true indication of the value of our outgoing players, all you have to do is look at what 17 other clubs were prepared to offer for them and how keen our club was to let them go.

Clubs can value what they like.

You have to watch players yourself and make your own evaluation.

Brent Harvey is an obvious example where all 18 clubs this offseason got it wrong. He remained a top 50 player in the competition (still the best kick/decision maker in the game and still has his pace) and still has durability having only once dropped below 20 games in the past 19 seasons.

Watching Collingwood and Travis Cloke every week I can also just as easily provide context behind his game. He has struggled (relative to who he was) these past three seasons because of hand/finger issues which no longer allow him to mark as he did and mean he no longer when taking a grab takes the air out of the ball.

Even looking at a revised projection going forward looking at his 2014-2016 seasons, looking at his numbers per 20 games. He still averages more than 30 goals and more than 130 marks, both are by position strong numbers. He still covers the ground, hasn't gotten any weaker. So he is still someone given his continued durability over the years and his fathers longevity and durability up to the age of 36, see value in what he offers.

I could continue the list - Dal Santo etc and provide similar examples as I have in this thread.

Clubs aren't getting their evaluations of AFL grade players right and continue with veterans to substantially undervalue what these guys are offering. They're also continually substantially overvaluing the worth of picks, more so this offseason perhaps than ever.

Clubs have plenty to learn and have lessons to learn from international sports in the list management and list building game.

 

[Knightmare]

ps what we got for Witts?
That's my biggest upset.
A club wants a number one ruck, they should pay something of some value.

The standard value received for a depth ruckman over the years through trade week has been a second round pick. We couldn't even get that. And I'm projecting Witts becomes a best 22 standard ruckman.

Just at aguess,do you think we as a club seem to overpay (consistently) and under sell (consistently).
I may be wrong, but feel Collingwood seems to be consistent these last few years in getting the wrong pineapple end. Sometimes sure, it well worth paying a bit much, eg a Treloar.
But seems to be other clubs do us in a bit.

Or is that imagination?

Certainly in the Buckley years I'd agree we have failed to get value through the trade period.

Treloar was an excellent get and well worth the picks traded.

But we haven't gotten a good player for late pick as you'd say of the Mitchell and Lewis deals this offseason as examples.

Disagree with most of that. Cloke and Brown look cooked. Doubt they will play many senior games at their new homes.
Marley is seriously flawed as a player. Can't have such a poor kick in the backline the way the game is played these days. Even so we all know there are other reasons why even Richmond would not touch him. (My mail was strong on this many months ago). Frost is an ok stopper but if we want to progress the modern defender should offer more than this especially if they are a chronic fumbler at ground level.
Witts - would be nice to retain but he was always going to be a number 2 to Grundy. Thought he was worth around pick 30 so to get pick 37 points for him was not far off the mark.

Given we got Wells and Mayne for free not sure how we overpaid for them? I suppose you are saying cap space but the Mayne deal is only media speculation and guess work

With Cloke and Brown I'm not necessarily seeing either as great fits for their new clubs. So from that perspective I wouldn't disagree.

Cloke alongside Boyd, Stringer, Crameri, Dickson who plays taller than height, McLean who plays taller than his height and Bontempelli who also pushes forward. That's a very tall front half. Cordy is up front may push for games given he played through the second half of the season consistently. Caleb Daniel and Dahlhaus can both crumb and Dunkley while more a mid probably also plays forward, but they're the only ground level players who play through the front half. Nothing assured for Cloke with that a really good group overall.

Brown also has a lot of competition with St Kilda. Carlisle is back. Goddard should be good and may break through next season as a regular. Sam Fisher when healthy is good. From the depth stocks he has Delaney and Lee beat, but that's about all.

Williams I'm ok with. He won't be the first or last player to be a poor kick and prove useful towards winning. Nat Fyfe can't kick but he's the second best midfielder in the game. Cloke can't kick and he was considered after Franklin for some years there 1b of the key forwards in the competition. Mumford can't kick but was for some years the most impactful ruckman in the game.

If you're dominant enough in other areas of the game you can still be impactful at AFL level. Williams is a ground ball winning beast and 50/50 ball winning beast. Then has excellent acceleration and a very explosive sidestep. He has more than enough talent.

Whilst I do agree that we tend to overpay incoming players, it's not an issue if they deliver.
I think us Collingwood supporters overate our players consistently. If you want a true indication of the value of our outgoing players, all you have to do is look at what 17 other clubs were prepared to offer for them and how keen our club was to let them go.

I don't view that as a reliable measure. Clubs underpay for players consistently and overvalue picks. If you go through trade history, about 75% of the winning trades are for the player in a deal for picks, or to the team that gets the best player in the deal, with those trades that don't work out more often than not for depth players who weren't of AFL quality.

AFL club recruiters will tell you the same thing. Make your own evaluation and back it in. Don't trust what everyone else is thinking. Back yourself.

 

[Harry O]

Brent Harvey had a pretty good year but on close inspection of his last 6 weeks I think he started to look quite old and struggling to compete against the best teams. At 38 I believe it would have been irresponsible for one of the other 17 teams to recruit him.

Still some talk the Pies will look at Nicky Dal as a DFA. Would be disappointed if they do. Soft, slow and sideways dinky kicks. Not for mine

 

[Prochard123]

Im incredibly disappointed by our lack of commitment/effort in getting Marchbank. In the end he really just went for a late first rounder and we could've easily traded our 2nd round pick to a pick in that range

Marchbank is extremely important especially for us with LITTLE TO NO KPD talent coming in where Marchbank would've been an exellent fit.

Ideally we also should've brought in a late first round pick to allow us to trade 2018 first rounder next year giving us 2 first rounders next year to go after star players. I cant believe after giving up so many key position players we didn't manage to get either Marchbank or a first round pick. Really a massive failure in the off-season. Do you agree Knightmare?

 

[Justlokan]

Im incredibly disappointed by our lack of commitment/effort in getting Marchbank. In the end he really just went for a late first rounder and we could've easily traded our 2nd round pick to a pick in that range

Marchbank is extremely important especially for us with LITTLE TO NO KPD talent coming in where Marchbank would've been an exellent fit.

Ideally we also should've brought in a late first round pick to allow us to trade 2018 first rounder next year giving us 2 first rounders next year to go after star players. I cant believe after giving up so many key position players we didn't manage to get either Marchbank or a first round pick. Really a massive failure in the off-season. Do you agree Knightmare?

We don't really know if we were or weren't into Marchbank. Maybe we talked to him but he wanted to go to Carlton.
And what would we have given up for upgrading to the 1st rounder? We don't really have any disposable quality that other clubs would be interested in.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Poor.

More so due to players lost and poor value gained. Opportunities not taken - ie. Brent Harvey among others who were gettable but seemingly not of interest.

Cloke, Williams, Witts, Brown, Frost all are bad losses and not players for what we gained that I would have given up.

Wells and Mayne are good gets but we've overpaid on such a level that I would not have signed either.

Hoskin-Elliott is a developable player but we still paid more than I would have to get him. Has good speed/endurance/leaping/marking overhead but doesn't find or win enough of the ball.

The only of our moves I like is Lynden Dunn who is a very capable key defender who given the losses of Brown and Frost will be a best 22 key defender and good enough.

My expectation even after what has been a poor trade period is we make the finals with our list still good enough for that.

But what has change is our key position and ruck stocks are weakened and the back end of our best 22 also is much weaker, with our depth overall not as strong as it was this season. From a long term list build perspective we haven't helped ourselves.

Clearly there's a problem with Harvey. Either he's a poor character or he does absolutely nothing off the ball.

 

[Harry O]

Im incredibly disappointed by our lack of commitment/effort in getting Marchbank. In the end he really just went for a late first rounder and we could've easily traded our 2nd round pick to a pick in that range

Marchbank is extremely important especially for us with LITTLE TO NO KPD talent coming in where Marchbank would've been an exellent fit.

Ideally we also should've brought in a late first round pick to allow us to trade 2018 first rounder next year giving us 2 first rounders next year to go after star players. I cant believe after giving up so many key position players we didn't manage to get either Marchbank or a first round pick. Really a massive failure in the off-season. Do you agree Knightmare?

I think you will find Marchbank was never going anywhere but Carlton, despite the charade of him visiting other clubs. I believe Silvagni's main assistant at Carlton is a very close family friend or relative of Marchbank, and we never really stood a chance. The deal was certainly unders his 'fair trade value' but they have helped GWS in plenty of other deals (Palmer, Jacksch, Whiley etc)

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Clearly there's a problem with Harvey. Either he's a poor character or he does absolutely nothing off the ball.

Suspect North pulled the trigger on Harvey to go the new direction of theirs; other clubs probably don't want to appear that they are going back to Father Time. And that is how our sport kills the older guys, and doubt it will change anytime soon.

 

[CFC2010]

Hey Knightmare

Any chance our recruiters can find an Aliir Aliir type at pick 44 like the Swans did in 2013?

 

[Soups]

Hey Knightmare

Any chance our recruiters can find an Aliir Aliir type at pick 44 like the Swans did in 2013?

Or Tom Barrass, The McGovern bros etc. A lot of clubs seems to be finding all these gems later in the draft, who can mark anything that comes to them. We really need to do the same.

 

[daicosdemis]

Clubs can value what they like.

You have to watch players yourself and make your own evaluation.

Brent Harvey is an obvious example where all 18 clubs this offseason got it wrong. He remained a top 50 player in the competition (still the best kick/decision maker in the game and still has his pace) and still has durability having only once dropped below 20 games in the past 19 seasons.

Watching Collingwood and Travis Cloke every week I can also just as easily provide context behind his game. He has struggled (relative to who he was) these past three seasons because of hand/finger issues which no longer allow him to mark as he did and mean he no longer when taking a grab takes the air out of the ball.

Even looking at a revised projection going forward looking at his 2014-2016 seasons, looking at his numbers per 20 games. He still averages more than 30 goals and more than 130 marks, both are by position strong numbers. He still covers the ground, hasn't gotten any weaker. So he is still someone given his continued durability over the years and his fathers longevity and durability up to the age of 36, see value in what he offers.

I could continue the list - Dal Santo etc and provide similar examples as I have in this thread.

Clubs aren't getting their evaluations of AFL grade players right and continue with veterans to substantially undervalue what these guys are offering. They're also continually substantially overvaluing the worth of picks, more so this offseason perhaps than ever.

Clubs have plenty to learn and have lessons to learn from international sports in the list management and list building game.

Agreed, you have to make your own evaluations and come to your own conclusions. Nevertheless, I don't have the time/resources/inside knowledge that clubs have. So if my opinion differs to that of 18 AFL clubs, then more often than not I am probably wrong.
Take Marley Williams for instance, he's basically been kicked out of the club for nothing in return. As far as we know it's a bizarre decision for someone who 12 months ago was pushing for all Australian. I'm willing to bet though, that he has once again stuffed up big time and this would be why we wanted him out and hardly any other club was willing to give him a chance.

The only clubs that would have shown interest in Harvey, would've been the ones close to a premiership tilt. And what they saw from him under finals pressure and against a strong side was utterly deflating. He looked as cooked as Petrie and you know that he would have been trying his heart out just to prove a point.

I wasn't aware of Clokey's ongoing hand/finger issues but I am surprised that you delve into statistics. So often stats only tell you half the truth and can be so deceptive. I remember a couple of years ago when Liverpool's Joe Allen had more completed passes than the likes Iniesta,Xavi and Pirlo. Means absolutely nothing.

I'm with you when you say clubs still have lessons to learn from international sports, this will always be the case. A world wide sport is bound to progress faster, all we can do is try to keep up.

 

[well left]

The only clubs that would have shown interest in Harvey, would've been the ones close to a premiership tilt. And what they saw from him under finals pressure and against a strong side was utterly deflating. He looked as cooked as Petrie and you know that he would have been trying his heart out just to prove a point.

Think you are right here. Knightmare has a point also about Harvey being in the top 50 or so players this year but the point is if North decide it's time to move on and put games into eg. Ryan Clarke as Harvey then that's probably fair enough.

When you consider Harvey was never going interstate from all reports, then you are down to 9 teams. Given Clarkson was preparing to move on Mitchell and Lewis then you are down to 8. Doggies won the flag so are probably pretty comfortable with their list.

I thought the clubs that may have had an interest were those that were close or felt like they could play finals and that was us and Geelong and was surprised we ruled ourselves out so early but that may have been due to having Wells sown up.

The others are all a couple away from a flag so not surprised they wanted to get games into youngsters before picking up Harvey.

 

[Countrypie]

Williams is a ground ball winning beast and 50/50 ball winning beast. Then has excellent acceleration and a very explosive sidestep. He has more than enough talent.



.

Interesting you rate it that way. I watched him closely at the VFL game in Ballarat and after about his 5th possession I just new what his move was going to be. That's OK sitting on the sidelines but it's quite another to predict it in a game. When he came back to AFL, I noticed that he didn't get away with that deft predictable sidestep he takes. Could it be that after a year or two clubs have worked him out?