List Mgmt. Contracts, trades, draft - 2021 offseason edition

[Keys]

So the 2021 season is officially done and dusted.

It’s time now to fully turn our attention to the off season and what we can do through the trade period/draft to chase down Melbourne in 2022.

List and personnel changes have already been made and I’ll update this OP as and when any further changes are made.

As it stands these are our official list changes :

Out -
• Venables (R) - retired
• Vardy - retired
• Hutchings (R) - delisted
• Ah Chee (R) - delisted
• Ainsworth - delisted
• Johnson - delisted
• Collins (R) - delisted
• Brander - cluster****
• Cameron - retired/delisted not that it was officially acknowledged by the club
• Sheppard - retired

Inactive listed -
• Cole
• Chesser

In -
• Petrevski-Seton - traded for pick 52
• Chesser - Pick 14
• Hough - Pick 31
• Bazzo - Pick 37
• Williams (Jack) - Pick 57
• Clark - Pick 62
• Dixon - SSP
• Joyce - SSP
• Strnadica - SSP
• Naish - SSP

Players on main list - 37 (Including 2 inactive)
Players on rookie list - 7

Future trade picks :
In - Port Adelaide future 2nd
Out - Future 4th

Assistant Coaches :
• Out - Graham, Hickmott
• In - Schofield (Strategy and Stoppage), Knights (Midfield), Wiley (WAFL coach), Brennan (development)

Link to contract status of all players -

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Ports lose by 5.5 goals and move up 2 places on the ladder.

What a time to be alive!

They haven’t moved from 16th where they finished the last round, and their percentage has dropped from 73.3 to 69.5?

 

[RookiePick]

eh...Maybe I was thinking of the ladder the week before? I know they were proper bottom at some point...I think?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

eh...Maybe I was thinking of the ladder the week before? I know they were proper bottom at some point...I think?

Yeah they were bottom the week before, losing the Showdown by less than a kick bumped them up a bit.

 

[bh90210fan]

Going to be interesting to see how much we give up for Tim English if he comes across

 

[RookiePick]

Yeah they were bottom the week before, losing the Showdown by less than a kick bumped them up a bit.

I have a habit of losing all recollection of losing Derby weeks.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[dinnaz]

Going to be interesting to see how much we give up for Tim English if he comes across

 

[Monocle]

They do. But good ones only come with a single digit draft picks. That’s reality.Have a look at all top mids at all teams. Top 5-7. You don’t get an Oliver with a pick 53. I have genuine feeling people don’t understand that simple concept.

Another well used line, regularly rolled out, from the apologists handbook.

Patrick Cripps pick # 13
Zac Bailey pick #15
Callan Ward pick # 19
Cam Gutherie pick # 23
Tim Kelly pick # 24
Jack Steele pick # 24
Zac Merrett pick # 26
Touk Miller pick # 29
Rory Laird - Rookie Pick

Brownlow Medalists.

Nat Fyfe pick #20
Lachie Neale pick # 58
Matt Priddis - Rookie Pick


I am sure that I have missed a few, but the list above refutes the notion that only SINGLE digit draft picks, spend on midfielders land you a top midfielder.


More to the point our recruiters cant identify quality mids...... been a recurring problem for quite a few years now.


So a more pertinent question is: What are The Football Operations Managers doing to rectify this problem?

 

[JoshWoodenSpoon]

"YOUNG TALL ON MID-SEASON RADAR​

AN EARLY name has emerged as a contender for the NAB AFL Mid-Season Rookie Draft.

Sandringham Dragons ruckman Max Ramsden has taken the attention of recruiters and last week had 11 disposals, 16 hitouts and five clearances in the opening round of the NAB League season."

OUT: Marsden
IN: Ramsden

 

[bh90210fan]

Wouldn’t mind for a Jordan Dawson type deal. Keep our 1st , give them a early 2nd and a pick swap with our other 2nd if we had to.

 

[dinnaz]

Wouldn’t mind for a Jordan Dawson type deal. Keep our 1st , give them a early 2nd and a pick swap with our other 2nd if we had to.

English is basically non competitive as a ruckman. Dogs must be frustrated to have the reverse Naitanui.

 

[bh90210fan]

English is basically non competitive as a ruckman. Dogs must be frustrated to have the reverse Naitanui.

He’s playing well so far this year

 

[Obeanie1]

Wouldn’t mind for a Jordan Dawson type deal. Keep our 1st , give them a early 2nd and a pick swap with our other 2nd if we had to.

I want a Suns Will Brodie deal.

Someone give us a 2nd rounder to take salary cap pressure off and we get a half decent mid.

 

[Obeanie1]

English is basically non competitive as a ruckman. Dogs must be frustrated to have the reverse Naitanui.

That's a load of bull.

English may not be a gun trap ruck but he can halve a ruck contest more often than not. He is also just entering his prime.

Around the ground he is a pretty good marking ruck and also good in close with hands providing assistance to the mids getting the ball moving.

Go list the top 18 rucks in the game. You will be surprised just how thin the number of quality rucks there are. And Nic is starting to slow down.

 

[ziad]

Another well used line, regularly rolled out, from the apologists handbook.

Patrick Cripps pick # 13
Zac Bailey pick #15
Callan Ward pick # 19
Cam Gutherie pick # 23
Tim Kelly pick # 24
Jack Steele pick # 24
Zac Merrett pick # 26
Touk Miller pick # 29
Rory Laird - Rookie Pick

Brownlow Medalists.

Nat Fyfe pick #20
Lachie Neale pick # 58
Matt Priddis - Rookie Pick


I am sure that I have missed a few, but the list above refutes the notion that only SINGLE digit draft picks, spend on midfielders land you a top midfielder.


More to the point our recruiters cant identify quality mids...... been a recurring problem for quite a few years now.


So a more pertinent question is: What are The Football Operations Managers doing to rectify this problem?

Always the exceptioin but long term higher up the draft is better.

Petracca 2
Brashaw 3
Oliver 4

Our best ever Judd at 3

 

[ghostbat12]

Another well used line, regularly rolled out, from the apologists handbook.

Patrick Cripps pick # 13
Zac Bailey pick #15
Callan Ward pick # 19
Cam Gutherie pick # 23
Tim Kelly pick # 24
Jack Steele pick # 24
Zac Merrett pick # 26
Touk Miller pick # 29
Rory Laird - Rookie Pick

Brownlow Medalists.

Nat Fyfe pick #20
Lachie Neale pick # 58
Matt Priddis - Rookie Pick


I am sure that I have missed a few, but the list above refutes the notion that only SINGLE digit draft picks, spend on midfielders land you a top midfielder.


More to the point our recruiters cant identify quality mids...... been a recurring problem for quite a few years now.


So a more pertinent question is: What are The Football Operations Managers doing to rectify this problem?

Look, I just don’t think there is a KPI on recruiters that asks them to draft a a-grade midfielder. I am not sure how one can be made. Your list, or whatever size list you wish to have covers about 1300 draft picks over 15 years. Them the odds. And different clubs, different recruiters. One can have personal opinion, sure. But I want to know how our recruiters stack up against others WITH FACTS. Give me a comparison. Not a cherry picked opinion. How does it stack up against the best?


Separately,
I am concerned that club is bringing in more old men. Like Wiley and that other guy recently whom I forget. What, we can’t find an ambitious young coach in entire Australia?

All around, where are the young men? Even in recruitment. Where are the women? Women look at things from different angles and spot different things.

 

[ghostbat12]

What draft number was Shuey, Yeo and Kelly? Or Fyfe, even?

Out of how many draft picks taken over a course of 15 years?

 

[FKASC]

Always the exceptioin but long term higher up the draft is better.

Petracca 2
Brashaw 3
Oliver 4

Our best ever Judd at 3

Brayshaw didn’t contribute much to their flag - he was their defensive wing Masten for most of the year, and still is largely. He’s not an on-baller.

Melbourne’s a tricky one to use as an example because Gawn/Jackson add so much as an extra mid, and Petracca is also more dangerous a forward than most of their forwards.

Sydney’s midfield has been a good example for a number of years now about not needing top 5 draft picks. Parker was pick 40 or something, Kennedy was a freebie. They’ve been helped by some academy players but none of them have been pure on-ballers and typically pinch hit there

 

[plays tall 1]

Out of how many draft picks taken over a course of 15 years?

Look, I just don’t think there is a KPI on recruiters that asks them to draft a a-grade midfielder. I am not sure how one can be made. Your list, or whatever size list you wish to have covers about 1300 draft picks over 15 years. Them the odds. And different clubs, different recruiters. One can have personal opinion, sure. But I want to know how our recruiters stack up against others WITH FACTS. Give me a comparison. Not a cherry picked opinion. How does it stack up against the best?


Separately,
I am concerned that club is bringing in more old men. Like Wiley and that other guy recently whom I forget. What, we can’t find an ambitious young coach in entire Australia?

All around, where are the young men? Even in recruitment. Where are the women? Women look at things from different angles and spot different things.

You made a sweeping statement which was unsupported by facts. Other posters responded with facts in the form of a-grade mids taken outside the top 10. You now appear to be unhappy with THOSE FACTS and want more facts, in the form of a statistical analysis of 15 years of the draft. You also appear now to be shifting your position to be that a-grade mids are more likely to be taken inside the top 10, which is an obvious and uncontroversial statement.

The analysis you suggested requires a lot of effort, why don’t you do it to support you’re unsupported original statement?

A simpler solution might be to look through a listing of the top mids in the comp (albeit that can only ever be subjective) and consider how many were taken outside the top 10. Here’s one list, and a quick read reveals the flaw in your original statement:

2024 SI AFL Player Ratings | Player Rankings

Get ahead of the game with Stats Insider's 2024 AFL Player Ratings. Discover comprehensive player rankings and stats to inform your footy predictions.

www.statsinsider.com.au

 

[JackOutback]

Out of how many draft picks taken over a course of 15 years?

Lots. But there's also been plenty of dud top 10 picks. Obviously you're more likely to nail a pick the higher up the draft you go, but it's not a science and top 10 picks aren't a guarantee of success; go back over the last 20 and you have about three superstars, some very solid careers and a surprising number of average ones. Ask Melbourne, who got it wrong for 20 years before getting it right once.

 

[Monocle]

Look, I just don’t think there is a KPI on recruiters that asks them to draft a a-grade midfielder. I am not sure how one can be made. Your list, or whatever size list you wish to have covers about 1300 draft picks over 15 years. Them the odds. And different clubs, different recruiters. One can have personal opinion, sure. But I want to know how our recruiters stack up against others WITH FACTS. Give me a comparison. Not a cherry picked opinion. How does it stack up against the best?

I could write you a thesis length reply addressing this post , however I suspect that I would just be wasting my time as you and I have verbally jousted previously and I get the felling that you are closed to a differing opinion.





You stated that you cant draft quality mids without a single digit pick...... I listed some refuting your comment..... you don't like the answer .... my apologies.



OK onto a few brief thoughts in response to your post - Recruiters and KPI's.

What are the KPI that recruiters should be graded on, well in general on field success ( is always a good place to start ), a BALANCED LIST now thats a biggie, adaptation to game trending and identification of players who fit new trends.

More specifically a good recruiting team would do a skills audit and assess performance ratios of both the team in general and players specifically, a few key areas to assess are, where the game is won and lost and this very much puts the midfield in the spotlight, with such performance indicators as:

• Hit Outs
• Clearances
• Centre Clearances
• Stoppage Clearances
• Contested Possessions
• Uncontested Possessions
• Inside 50's
• Possessions to scores ratios

I am not going to do it for you, but I suggest you take a look at the ratios and correlation, of the Game Day KPI's listed above, to wins, then its pretty obvious where our short comings as a list are and have been for several years.

I would have though that this would have been obvious to a TEAM of paid professionals to interpret.



Dylan82 has on numerous occasions previously submitted comprehensive breakdowns and comparisons ,with other teams, on this site in many of the areas I have listed above - his critiques and analysis are top quality and enlightening in their detailed breakdown.

Separately,
Like Wiley and that other guy recently whom I forget.

While I get the essence of your point, Rob Wiley is not the best example IMO, as he is one of the very best skills coaches going around.
I have seen his work up close and I am thrilled that he is on board ...... in this instance age is for me a non issue as Rob is to good a resource not to tap into.
The other guy ... I suspect its Steve Malaxos you are referring to and TBH I am not sure what his role is, so no comment from me on that appointment.

Separately,
What, we can’t find an ambitious young coach in entire Australia?

All around, where are the young men? Even in recruitment. Where are the women? Women look at things from different angles and spot different things.

Will finish on a positive.

Agree with most of these last points.

Hopefully Schofield is a breath of fresh air, God only knows we are due for some.

Our recruiting team in particular are stale and old and IMO, urgently need a refresh.
My biggest concern is that our Recruiting Manager, who I have little faith in, has just been added even more responsibility by having List Management added to his portfolio of responsibilities. This in itself is a massive Red Flag for me, because List Management should be a Check and Balance to recruiting .
To be done effectively they are seperate functions that need to be independent roles, our current dual role appointment is a shortcoming and carries potential serious risk.

I consider that Graham Wright, who IMO did a very good job at Hawthorn through their Golden Era, he has an MBA in Sports Management and has subsequently been poached by Collingwood - he by way of example, is the caliber of Football Brain and football industry experiencing that we should be seeking to add to our management team.

However I agree with you that we do seem to aim low, play safe and conservative with many of our appointments, we need to open up our wallets and attract best practice personnel to our larger management team

" If you pay peanuts, you get Monkeys "................ they seem to be a common theme in my post.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Separately,
I am concerned that club is bringing in more old men. Like Wiley and that other guy recently whom I forget. What, we can’t find an ambitious young coach in entire Australia?

I assume “that other guy” isn’t Jacob Brennan, who was just appointed as a development coach after his success with the EF colts, and who’s probably younger than half a dozen of our players.

 

[JackOutback]

However I agree with you that we do see to aim low, play safe and conservative with many of our appointments, we need to open up our wallets and attract best practice personnel to our larger management team

West Coast is definitely a conservative organisation; slow to change but less likely to make rash (poor) decisions. It's probably why we don't stay down for long, but don't stay on top for long either.

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

You made a sweeping statement which was unsupported by facts. Other posters responded with facts in the form of a-grade mids taken outside the top 10. You now appear to be unhappy with THOSE FACTS and want more facts, in the form of a statistical analysis of 15 years of the draft. You also appear now to be shifting your position to be that a-grade mids are more likely to be taken inside the top 10, which is an obvious and uncontroversial statement.

The analysis you suggested requires a lot of effort, why don’t you do it to support you’re unsupported original statement?

A simpler solution might be to look through a listing of the top mids in the comp (albeit that can only ever be subjective) and consider how many were taken outside the top 10. Here’s one list, and a quick read reveals the flaw in your original statement:

2024 SI AFL Player Ratings | Player Rankings

Get ahead of the game with Stats Insider's 2024 AFL Player Ratings. Discover comprehensive player rankings and stats to inform your footy predictions.

www.statsinsider.com.au

So I did the work and like you, I call bulldust on "Top 5 or 10 only" get you a good mid.

Lets look at our top 5 mids against their original draft position showing Gaff was a pointy end and the rest were end R1 through to late R2. Only 1 top 10 pick and an average of 20 (would be lower if you considered Kelly was overlooked for multiple drafts so his number could be 200)


Here is the top 35 rated mids and the draft position they were taken at. For rookies, I have used 70 as a default grade as with Zorko who was overlooked



So out of the top 35 mids, 17 were taken top 10 and 13 were taken top 5. This is not an arbitrary listing - whether you agree with the rating it goes from 1 to 35. So 18 of the best 35 midfielders were taken after pick 10. Similarly, 13 of the top 35 were taken after pick 20.

I fully agree that pointy end picks are a greater likelihood of succeeding but the argument followed by some saying we haven't had the chance is simply not true.

Remember, we overlooked Hobbs and Johnson to take Chesser (BTW I think Chesser will make it as a mid) and we overlooked Berry to take Venables.

 

[WCErevival]

Quality AFL players generally come from the top 30. With so many teams in the league now even your second pick can be a fair way outside of that.

 

[Cornelius Roy]

So I did the work and like you, I call bulldust on "Top 5 or 10 only" get you a good mid.

Lets look at our top 5 mids against their original draft position showing Gaff was a pointy end and the rest were end R1 through to late R2. Only 1 top 10 pick and an average of 20 (would be lower if you considered Kelly was overlooked for multiple drafts so his number could be 200)
View attachment 1366666

Here is the top 35 rated mids and the draft position they were taken at. For rookies, I have used 70 as a default grade as with Zorko who was overlooked

View attachment 1366668

So out of the top 35 mids, 17 were taken top 10 and 13 were taken top 5. This is not an arbitrary listing - whether you agree with the rating it goes from 1 to 35. So 18 of the best 35 midfielders were taken after pick 10. Similarly, 13 of the top 35 were taken after pick 20.

I fully agree that pointy end picks are a greater likelihood of succeeding but the argument followed by some saying we haven't had the chance is simply not true.

Remember, we overlooked Hobbs and Johnson to take Chesser (BTW I think Chesser will make it as a mid) and we overlooked Berry to take Venables.

If there wasn’t a huge go home factor for Ben Hobbs I’ll eat my own shoe. Just had to be picked there if there wasn’t.

Really hoping bond doesn’t come in and serve up the tomato sauce for me on this.