News Dons ASADA scandal (Latest: Pg 101 - CAS verdict. Guilty, 12 months.)

[vjknight]

2 points.

the players took injections for MANY MANY MONTHS.....not just over a weekend. they knew exactly what was happening and why.

this rubbish over the doc - no doubt it existed......but WHEN was it created - im guessing between aug 2012 and apr 2013. after dank was long gone.

 

[Hardas]

Wonder if they'll lose more of their good players that don't want to be part of the circus anymore..

No doubt it will make the club nervous if there are any key players unsigned beyond this year.
I hope this doesn't add to James' stress level - that would be terrible...

 

[Black_White]

injected not ingested

Well yes, but I'm using the term as a catch all for everything that a player introduces into his body.
While the Essendon players were injected, our players ingested.
Much the same to me, none of them really knew what they were receiving.

 

[Helfarch]

I think that's an interesting take and you're entitled to your opinion of course but I see it differently. Of course we are both only speculating but I find it hard to believe that a player who believes that he is the one who has been wronged would willingly take a 6 month suspension if there is the remotest chance that he may be exonerated. That said, I certainly would expect that if the players do wind up taking extended bans as a result of what went on they will seek legal recourse if they believe that they were deceived.

There is no "take" on the events here, the club doctor did not know what the injections were. Who are the players supposed to check with? The club doctor.

the players took injections for MANY MANY MONTHS.....not just over a weekend. they knew exactly what was happening and why.

The fact that it was a regime makes it so much worse.

Jobe has to be stripped of his Brownlow. Life bans need to be issued to staff in the know.

I am still baffled that more media didn't ask the simple question - why has no one looked at Geelong? Essendon imported the lot from Geelong. Starts to become hard to read for the AFL when there is the possibility of tainted premierships.

 

[vjknight]

I am still baffled that more media didn't ask the simple question - why has no one looked at Geelong? Essendon imported the lot from Geelong. Starts to become hard to read for the AFL when there is the possibility of tainted premierships.

problem is a lot of the current rules were intro'd after their threepeat, not before. hard to go back and argue that point.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Its an interesting conundrum.

To find them guilty you need evidence.
When the evidence has been lost/destroyed it suggests guilt.

I think its easy to presume guilt and that presumption for me comes primarily from the actions of the Essendon Football Club. It is inconceivable they did not have any records. And if they truly jabbed players thousands of times with unknown unrecorded substances then then this is a far greater crime than a questionable performance enhancing drug. They claim that there were records but that they have been "lost" but assure us that it was done & all OK. I used this defence many times at school and it didn't work out as well as it seems to have here.

Are we stupid enough to believe that the club was in fact this negligent. I think there is a good chance that this negligence was manufactured in the interest of saving the players and that makes perfect sense.

I think it has been demonstrated & proved via witness statements that the offending substance was purchased, manufactured & supplied to Dank who was the number one man in charge. However, I don't see how WADA can prove individual guilt. I agree With WADA/ASADA that the balance of probabilities suggest that they did indeed take the offending substance, however you still cannot prove it without doubt of who got what - if it was one player involved then you perhaps could. I don't think the players should or could be prosecuted on the evidence available.

At the end of the day whoever hit the delete key or operated the shredding machine Watergate style is the hero for the players, its a key document that will cripple any prosecution. The only way WADA can win is to have Dank testify to what he did or recover that document.....so why are they appealing?

Perhaps they are simply testing the financial limit of an organisation that they see has corrupted the process. Appealing is a penalty to Essendon in itself. WADA has deeper pockets than ASADA and maybe they are just helping little bro out. Maybe they think if they keep shaking the tree the evidence will fall out. Perhaps they have done a deal with Dank regarding pending penalties coming from ASADA. Would Dank roll over for his own self interest?

 

[Helfarch]

They don't have to erase doubt, only conclude that on the balance of probabilities banned substances were used.

 

[TradeDraft]

They don't have to erase doubt, only conclude that on the balance of probabilities banned substances were used.

and What is sounded like in the ASADA Report that is a strong chance of Happening

 

[Countrypie]

Its an interesting conundrum.




Would Dank roll over for his own self interest?

Would a bear *%$# in the woods?

 

[Helfarch]

and What is sounded like in the ASADA Report that is a strong chance of Happening

It was the whole point of ASADA not bothering to appeal because they would have to appeal to the same biased tribunal so they left it to WADA to appeal where the AFL loses all control.

 

[PieNSauce]

There is no "take" on the events here, the club doctor did not know what the injections were. Who are the players supposed to check with? The club doctor.

Which is precisely the point I have been making. Those who were in the know are the ones who need to be punished most severely. I am still unconvinced that there is conclusive evidence that the players took a banned substance or that they were informed accurately as to the precise nature of what they were given. I believe that they had a right to rely on the club one way or another.

 

[rose jam]

WADA are essentially appealing the fact that the AFL tribunal used the standard of "comfortable satisfaction" incorrectly and are expecting that CAS understand and use it correctly which is enough on current evidence to convict.
WADA may also be confident of getting Alavi, Charter, and Dank to testify. Probably just need 1 of those to sink the ship.

 

[Helfarch]

Which is precisely the point I have been making. Those who were in the know are the ones who need to be punished most severely.

Indeed but players can't be let off otherwise the system doesn't work.

I am still unconvinced that there is conclusive evidence that the players took a banned substance or that they were informed accurately as to the precise nature of what they were given. I believe that they had a right to rely on the club one way or another.

There isn't conclusive evidence, there doesn't have to be, if there did there would be no point banning substances until there was a test that worked well after the fact - there just isn't for most modern PEDs.

 

[PieBeast]

Which is precisely the point I have been making. Those who were in the know are the ones who need to be punished most severely. I am still unconvinced that there is conclusive evidence that the players took a banned substance or that they were informed accurately as to the precise nature of what they were given. I believe that they had a right to rely on the club one way or another.

Totally irrelevant when it comes to doping violations.

 

[vjknight]

Which is precisely the point I have been making. Those who were in the know are the ones who need to be punished most severely. I am still unconvinced that there is conclusive evidence that the players took a banned substance or that they were informed accurately as to the precise nature of what they were given. I believe that they had a right to rely on the club one way or another.

i agree on this point, but as mentioned it becomes irrelevant. BUT a not guilty/not comfortably satisfied verdict leaves the real perpetrators free as well. the players need to be found guilty, penalties to be determined, before the real villians in this can be shutdown and banned.

 

[PieNSauce]

Indeed but players can't be let off otherwise the system doesn't work.


There isn't conclusive evidence, there doesn't have to be, if there did there would be no point banning substances until there was a test that worked well after the fact - there just isn't for most modern PEDs.

Totally irrelevant when it comes to doping violations.

i agree on this point, but as mentioned it becomes irrelevant. BUT a not guilty/not comfortably satisfied verdict leaves the real perpetrators free as well. the players need to be found guilty, penalties to be determined, before the real villians in this can be shutdown and banned.

My point is not about how the rules work. I think we all know at least to a point how they work and most of what you are all saying is quite correct and I make no attempt to argue or disagree on those points. I have simply made it clear that I am not totally comfortable with it. The reality is that these rules rely on a concept of guilty until proven innocent and whilst I understand why they have been framed that way, it has to be said that at least to an extent it appears to fly in the face of what we all believe to be natural justice. In any case, my main point was that if players are to be penalised then there is a significant need for those who implemented the program to be banned from holding any position of authority in sport for life.

 

[Madagascar]

This is the Essendon side that will run out tonight.

Hurley* Fletcher* Baguley
Gleeson Hooker* Hibbard*
Heppell* Watson* Dempsey
Bellchambers* Stanton* Goddard
Langford Carlisle* Colyer*
Merrett Ambrose Daniher
Ashby Melksham* Howlett* Merrett

Under the circumstances I wouldn't trade for the guys with an astericks. Most of them are in their twighlight or aren't that good, except for Heppell who is a star, Hurley, Hibbard and Hooker go alright and Carlisle is Carlisle. H

They shouldn't be givting games to Melksham and Howlett, with their list they need to rebuild anyway and especially so under the circumstances. Start planning Bombers for **** sake.

 

[Countrypie]

This is the Essendon side that will run out tonight.

Hurley* Fletcher* Baguley
Gleeson Hooker* Hibbard*
Heppell* Watson* Dempsey
Bellchambers* Stanton* Goddard
Langford Carlisle* Colyer*
Merrett Ambrose Daniher
Ashby Melksham* Howlett* Merrett

Under the circumstances I wouldn't trade for the guys with an astericks. Most of them are in their twighlight or aren't that good, except for Heppell who is a star, Hurley, Hibbard and Hooker go alright and Carlisle is Carlisle. H

They shouldn't be givting games to Melksham and Howlett, with their list they need to rebuild anyway and especially so under the circumstances. Start planning Bombers for **** sake.

Unbelievably they believe that they're contenders. I've never been able to see it

 

[Bard]

Unbelievably they believe that they're contenders. I've never been able to see it

I'm fine with them following the Carlton philosophy and later, ladder position.

 

[35Daicos]

I'm fine with them following the Carlton philosophy and later, ladder position.

The Essendon people still see their club as a "big club." Yet (to go with the off-field fiasco) they haven't won a finals game since 2004 - a disastrous record. I remember having a chat with my Bombers supporting brother about 5 years ago (he has the same arrogant attitude that so many of them seem to have) and he bragged "we don't bottom out."

So now 10 years have passed without them winning a finals game, yet they probably still think their "philosophy" is a winning one!

 

[Apex36]

The Essendon people still see their club as a "big club." Yet (to go with the off-field fiasco) they haven't won a finals game since 2004 - a disastrous record. I remember having a chat with my Bombers supporting brother about 5 years ago (he has the same arrogant attitude that so many of them seem to have) and he bragged "we don't bottom out."

So now 10 years have passed without them winning a finals game, yet they probably still think their "philosophy" is a winning one!

Not bottoming out is entirely possible, but to be successful it requires forward planning and short term sacrifice. Our recent trading and drafting is a prime example of this (albeit some of that trading was due to our hand being forced).

Neither Carlton or Essendon have learned this yet, and I'm happy for them to ignore the short term sacrifices that are required to rebuild on the run. That ship has sailed for Carlton already, and will for the Bombers soon enough too.

 

[35Daicos]

Not bottoming out is entirely possible, but to be successful it requires forward planning and short term sacrifice. Our recent trading and drafting is a prime example of this (albeit some of that trading was due to our hand being forced).

Neither Carlton or Essendon have learned this yet, and I'm happy for them to ignore the short term sacrifices that are required to rebuild on the run. That ship has sailed for Carlton already, and will for the Bombers soon enough too.

Things have obviously changed a fair bit with the introduction of free agency. I'm very happy with the way we're going about things, watching how the next few years unfold for Collingwood with our talented young list should be quite exciting.

 

[MarkT2]

I am still baffled that more media didn't ask the simple question - why has no one looked at Geelong? Essendon imported the lot from Geelong. Starts to become hard to read for the AFL when there is the possibility of tainted premierships.

I don't see Geelong as under suspicion on that front. Firstly the Essendon programme was unprecedented on many fronts. secondly, Thompson actually wanted it shut down when he learned what it involved. They are entitled to some benefit of doubt IMO.

 

[Dynamics]

You can avoid bottoming out but spend eternity mid table without ever being a genuine contender, if you refuse to make hard calls and to be honest with yourself as a club. I didn't realise they haven't win a final since 2004! That's absolutely rubbish for club of their size and history.

The fact that Essendon and Carlton are both slowly rotting on the vine makes me very happy indeed.

 

[35Daicos]

Does anyone know whether Alavi and Charter ever promised ASADA (or at least suggested) that they would appear at the Tribunal, before (mysteriously, it seems!) changing their minds?