Opinion Football in no man's land - Geelong 2024.

[DanA]

This easily could have been a 'roast' prefixed thread but chose to leave it open for opinions rather than somewhere to rant or vent.

But in all seriousness, what are we trying to do this season. We don't appear to be going for the flag, or anywhere good enough to go for the flag.
But we're also not a bottom 4 club pumping games at will to anyone under 22.

So what we have is a sprinkling of youth learning the game, learning their craft and finding their feet at league level. While also having to take up some of the slack that fading veterans are no longer able to absorb by themselves anymore.

Defensively we appear to have taken steps backward in terms of ability, cohesion and understanding. Stewart is getting tagged, Henry has been up and down. SDK still looks timid. Only Zuthrie and Kolo seem to either have held ground or continued to improve.

In the middle is where the real issues lie, it's not just that we get belted in clearances and contests but it's also that when the game is at its hottest in first halves we get obliterated. We wear out our backline defending grimly and only start to come into games once the sting has gone out of it.

On the one hand lots of these guys like Holmes, Conway, Clark, Bruhn, Bowes appear to have many years left in the game and some improvement as years go on should be expected. Worryingly we're still reliant on 34yo Dangerfield to be remotely competitive in the midfield.

The conundrum is whether sticking with it now for the very bad short term pain will lead to long term gains, or should we pivot and get different looks in there and reward VFL form.

Hawkins, Cameron and Neale are also becoming troublesome. JC has had a role flip that hasn't been working. Hawkins is on his last legs, 3 months from retirement. But Neale still struggles to impress. Ollie Henry when we're not getting supply is also a worry and clubs are now putting attention into Miers. Should Stengle leave we are all of a sudden short of goal kicking small forwards as Close and Dempsey are inconsistent scorers.

IMV I think we need to concede that even if we make finals, and finals experience would be good for our young group of players, that we are not winning it this year. So would like to see the next 6 weeks used to try some new things. SDK in the ruck tonight. Give Humphries a look at HBF. Try Stewart in the midfield. Give Mannagh and Hardie a crack. There'd be others as well.

I'd like to see Blicavs and Atkins dropped. See what football without them looks like.
Hawkins is injured tonight so likely get another look at Neale. Send Mullin back to learn midfield in the VFL.

We're rolling out the same core group, with the same basic structure. And we're getting the same results playing the same dour and boring style.
Time to try something new, and to try different personnel or roles.

For me, we are developing Mullins, Dempsey, O.Henry, Conway, Neale, Clark and Bruhn. That’s about as much as you can do, you still need veterans to teach them and if you don’t have then you risk becoming a club that meanders for a decade rebuilding with kids never getting the guidance to reach their level best. It’s a balance I think we’ve got broadly right.


We offloaded Menegola, Ceglar, and Isaac Smith last year. This year we’ll probably lose Hawkins, Rohan, Stanley, and Bews. Potentially one or two more of Duncan, Touhy, and Danger as well….I don’t think there’s much more we can do. I’m not of the opinion that you want to completely creator.

 

[DanA]

Our young talent is extremely over rated. Outside of Holmes we don't have any young players who look like future A Graders.

How many A graders do teams actually have? I go through Sydney, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carlton etc and they probably only have 3 or 4 each.

I think it’s more about having a critical mass of talent overall and then a really strong engine room. We had that in 2022 but with Selwood gone and Guthrie, Stanley, Danger crippled the midfield just isn’t capable. I do think we have that critical mass of players overall but it’s hard to instantly find a ruck and 2-3 mids to get us to the contender level. And by the time we do I don’t think we’ll have that critical mass of solid players.

 

[Warhorse]

How many A graders do teams actually have? I go through Sydney, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carlton etc and they probably only have 3 or 4 each.

I think it’s more about having a critical mass of talent overall and then a really strong engine room. We had that in 2022 but with Selwood gone and Guthrie, Stanley, Danger crippled the midfield just isn’t capable. I do think we have that critical mass of players overall but it’s hard to instantly find a ruck and 2-3 mids to get us to the contender level. And by the time we do I don’t think we’ll have that critical mass of solid players.

I get what you are saying but I don't think we win a flag with a bunch a B Graders running the midfield.

I am talking about our young talent. Many question marks on most of them

 

[Strange Cat]

I get what you are saying but I don't think we win a flag with a bunch a B Graders running the midfield.

I am talking about our young talent. Many question marks on most of them

Tigers won 3 flags with a bunch of B graders …it can be done

 

[you pick one]

I will go back and read through this thread when time permits so if this has already been put up sorry but my belief is at the moment our better backup players coming through the reserves are all around the same caliber as 5 or 6 who appear to be getting a rails run this season and for various reason are not quite up to the job I don't think the answer to our predicament lies at the lower level and from the actions on selection nights it appears either do the coach or selectors.Wells and Mackie have their work cut out what's on the horizon with F/S?

 

[feelinfeline]

Tigers won 3 flags with a bunch of B graders …it can be done

They had a matchwinner in Dustin Martin. We don't have anyone like him, and are unlikely to draft/recruit anyone like him.

 

[Warhorse]

They had a matchwinner in Dustin Martin. We don't have anyone like him, and are unlikely to draft/recruit anyone like him.

Yep. I'm worried we end up like St Kilda. Solid but without the watch winner / elite midfielder to take them to the next level.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Yep. I'm worried we end up like St Kilda. Solid but without the watch winner / elite midfielder to take them to the next level.

Everything hinges on retaining destination club status

 

[feelinfeline]

Yep. I'm worried we end up like St Kilda. Solid but without the watch winner / elite midfielder to take them to the next level.

I'll back the club to get the job done, given their amazing record of recruiting/developing players over the past 20 or so years. But it's going to be tough, especially with Tassie coming in soon. I'm sure they know that.

 

[Footy Smarts]

What would people have said about Ablett, Corey and Bartel at the following points in their careers?

Ablett in his 3rd year was a very talented small forward who finished 8th in the B&F. How's Dempsey going in comparison?

Corey was a decent but not special looking inside mid who finished 9th in the B&F in his 4th year. How does that compare to Bruhn this year?

Bartel was in and out of the team in his second year and was still playing some VFL in his 3rd year. How does that compare to Clark currently?

Most legends of the game have question marks over them in their early years. Can the current guys do the same? Almost certainly not to the same extent but make no mistake the potential ceiling for all those 3 is elite.

It's just silly to assume we've got no elite young players coming through when we simply don't know what they'll be yet. And plenty of people looked at the early years of our gun generation and said there weren't any stars there because they weren't dominant as 19, 20 and 21 year olds.

 

[bombersboy]

Our young talent is extremely over rated. Outside of Holmes we don't have any young players who look like future A Graders.

Whilst I think we do not have a player that stands out as much as Holmes did early on (elite pace and penetrating kick) I do think Bruhn, Clark, Conway, Dempsey all have the potential to be A graders in 2-3 years. I also think Edwards potentially has something special. SDK is still a chance when he gets to 25-26 years of age. 99% of players of that size are late developers. I am confident his best is still ahead of him.

 

[feelinfeline]

What would people have said about Ablett, Corey and Bartel at the following points in their careers?

Ablett in his 3rd year was a very talented small forward who finished 8th in the B&F. How's Dempsey going in comparison?

Corey was a decent but not special looking inside mid who finished 9th in the B&F in his 4th year. How does that compare to Bruhn this year?

Bartel was in and out of the team in his second year and was still playing some VFL in his 3rd year. How does that compare to Clark currently?

Most legends of the game have question marks over them in their early years. Can the current guys do the same? Almost certainly not to the same extent but make no mistake the potential ceiling for all those 3 is elite.

It's just silly to assume we've got no elite young players coming through when we simply don't know what they'll be yet. And plenty of people looked at the early years of our gun generation and said there weren't any stars there because they weren't dominant as 19, 20 and 21 year olds.

Good point. I definitely think Dempsey has the ability to become elite.

I'm less convinced about Bruhn and Clark becoming elite, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

I get what you are saying but I don't think we win a flag with a bunch a B Graders running the midfield.

I am talking about our young talent. Many question marks on most of them

You're implying that what we have now is all we'll ever have and we're banned from drafting and trading over the coming years.

I don't think anyone has suggested we've got an entire premiership side developing right now...just that we've got a lot of players with a lot of promise, that need experience and games to reach their potential in a few years.

Two things can be true. It doesn't have to be so vehemently negative or optimistic.

1) We have a lot of players who have a future at AFL level. Some A-grade, some B-grade, some role players.

2) We're not yet the finished product, and we need to add to our stocks to get to where we want to be.

You've said yourself, if we were able to add Smith this year and LDU next year that completely changes the list, and we could well be competing by 2026.

Whether any of us agree with that or not isn't the point.

The point is that can happen, as well as other scenarios where we bring in guns through the draft, or players similar to the previously mentioned names.

I see us in a position that's not unlike Sydney a few years ago before they drafted Warner & Gulden.

The list comparisons stack up, and they're the two players we don't have right now, and we're going to need to find.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

What would people have said about Ablett, Corey and Bartel at the following points in their careers?

Ablett in his 3rd year was a very talented small forward who finished 8th in the B&F. How's Dempsey going in comparison?

Corey was a decent but not special looking inside mid who finished 9th in the B&F in his 4th year. How does that compare to Bruhn this year?

Bartel was in and out of the team in his second year and was still playing some VFL in his 3rd year. How does that compare to Clark currently?

Most legends of the game have question marks over them in their early years. Can the current guys do the same? Almost certainly not to the same extent but make no mistake the potential ceiling for all those 3 is elite.

It's just silly to assume we've got no elite young players coming through when we simply don't know what they'll be yet. And plenty of people looked at the early years of our gun generation and said there weren't any stars there because they weren't dominant as 19, 20 and 21 year olds.

Even as late as 2006 that was the narrative, and the majority of them were 23-26 by that point.

 

[Strange Cat]

They had a matchwinner in Dustin Martin. We don't have anyone like him, and are unlikely to draft/recruit anyone like him.

That’s the point being made we need a few more additions in the midfield to hold the engine up …point still stands that that list had hardly any superstars and were mostly B grades and still won multiple flags so it can be done

 

[DanA]

Even as late as 2006 that was the narrative, and the majority of them were 23-26 by that point.

I don’t think that’s true. I distinctly remember talks of a future dynasty coming in 2005 following the Sydney loss in the finals.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I don’t think that’s true. I distinctly remember talks of a future dynasty coming in 2005 following the Sydney loss in the finals.

It's what made the Sydney loss so deflating. From "we've arrived" to "wtf" in a few hours

 

[Footy Smarts]

I don’t think that’s true. I distinctly remember talks of a future dynasty coming in 2005 following the Sydney loss in the finals.

My main memory of 2004-05 is being considered decent but dour and definitely not having the young talent of Stkilda.

Then there were a few weeks in early 2006 after we won the preseason cup and smashed Brisbane and North in the first 2 weeks when we were the talk of the comp. But it all feel apart straight after.

Until we started dominating in 2007 there were always big question marks over the team.

 

[Balardong]

You talked me into it.

BRB stocking up in the chips

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Might be worth heading down to Coles on Saturday morning CatToTheFuture

OH MY GOD! IT'S HAPPENING!

I feel like I've put too much pressure on the kid now. I'm just happy to see him named and run through the banner. Everything else is a bonus

 

[Balardong]

You talked me into it.

BRB stocking up in the chips aisle

Might be worth heading down to Coles on Saturday morning CatToTheFuture

 

[Art Vandelay_]

For me, we are developing Mullins, Dempsey, O.Henry, Conway, Neale, Clark and Bruhn. That’s about as much as you can do, you still need veterans to teach them and if you don’t have then you risk becoming a club that meanders for a decade rebuilding with kids never getting the guidance to reach their level best. It’s a balance I think we’ve got broadly right.


We offloaded Menegola, Ceglar, and Isaac Smith last year. This year we’ll probably lose Hawkins, Rohan, Stanley, and Bews. Potentially one or two more of Duncan, Touhy, and Danger as well….I don’t think there’s much more we can do. I’m not of the opinion that you want to completely creator.

Not what I am professing though. Not to punt all veterans for youth.
I actually want us to move past role players that either need more time developing and try someone else for a while, or move past role players over the hill.

Aka; Blicavs, Atkins, Mullin, MOC. Give Humphries, Mannagh, Hardie, Knevitt a crack. They couldn't really make us worse.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Not what I am professing though. Not to punt all veterans for youth.
I actually want us to move past role players that either need more time developing and try someone else for a while, or move past role players over the hill.

Aka; Blicavs, Atkins, Mullin, MOC. Give Humphries, Mannagh, Hardie, Knevitt a crack. They couldn't really make us worse.

Dropping Blicavs or Atkins when our midfield is so thin would be insane. Atkins is even having a decent year just underrated cause his stats are hurt by playing a bunch in the back line.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Might be worth heading down to Coles on Saturday morning CatToTheFuture

OMG!!!

 

[CHAWKTS]

My main memory of 2004-05 is being considered decent but dour and definitely not having the young talent of Stkilda.

Then there were a few weeks in early 2006 after we won the preseason cup and smashed Brisbane and North in the first 2 weeks when we were the talk of the comp. But it all feel apart straight after.

Until we started dominating in 2007 there were always big question marks over the team.

Yeah…didn’t we almost lose the coach in 2006 due to massive underperformance?