Gc17 have a ruckman!

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Why do some people think that:

a) because a player is from interstate, they will want to return so easily?

b) anyone would want to leave Carlton?

c) The Gold Coast team can have who they want, when they want?

d) That Carlton will just off-load one of our better young prospects just for a pick (when I bet at least one of those picks will be spent on a tall), when that better young prospect is a brilliantly athletic ruckman?

Hampson has everything going for him. At pick 17, we always knew a tall developing ruckman would take time. Look at Warnock, he's still 21 with around 20 games to his name, yet everyone everywhere is talking him up to be the next Dean Cox. I hope like hell that Hampson will stay a blue for life, surely we have our ruck stocks for the next decade well and truly set.

We have a young enough team, we don't need to be off-loading one of our best tall boys for more picks as we are the youngest team going around.

I disagree with you ODN completely. You say we have no room for Kruezer, Warnock and Hampson? Why not? They are agile athletes, and we all know that tall men who move like the shorter ones are a rarity. Kreuzer crumbs his own taps! Who is to say that Warnock and Hampson cannot share ruck duties? Who knows whether Kruezer will end up playing all over the ground and maybe not as the ruckman we picked him up as?

We have no idea what the club has in mind for these three boys. We trade Hampson for a pick and then wow, watch as everyone says we needs a third ruck and should pick one up in a future draft. Giving away a freak athletic tall in return for a pick, when we will only spend one of those picks on a tall anyway. Dont see the point.

Hammer is a big part of our future, every club has at least two good rucks. We have Warnock and Hampson with that tag, and we have Kruezer who is a freakishly tall mid/forward/ruck rover/I'll play anywhere. I see Kruezer very much in an Adam Goodes type role.

No reason we can't have all three tall boys in our side.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Well despite the ridiculous crap people have thrown at you in this thread, I agree with you that it is likely or possible. In fact I think Warnock was a great move in part BECAUSE of the possibility of Hammo going home. Clearly they will be trying Kreuzer as a forward now. Warnock in the ruck. Hammo and Cloke vieing for 'off the bench' status.

If Hammo shows that off the bench he is worth a lot more than just a back up role, then it gives us two options: relegate Warnock to the backup ruck spot (if Warnock is NOT developing) OR trade him back to GC17 for a good pick (if Warnock IS developing).

If Hammo AND Warnock turn into gun ruckmen OR if Warnock does and Kreuzer fails as a forward, then it would be best for both Hammo and Carlton that he be traded home.

I think Hammo and Warnock will both be gun ruckmen. So Hammo will get a better chance back home and we will get a great draft pick for someone we can offer no more than a backup role to. It happens. This is not wiping the kid, it is actually recognising there are a few pretty possible circumstances here that would lead to him heading home.

What if Hammo doesn't actually want to return, or what if he turns out better than Warnock?

Lots of scepticism in this thread.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I disagree with you ODN completely. You say we have no room for Kruezer, Warnock and Hampson? Why not? They are agile athletes, and we all know that tall men who move like the shorter ones are a rarity. Kreuzer crumbs his own taps! Who is to say that Warnock and Hampson cannot share ruck duties? Who knows whether Kruezer will end up playing all over the ground and maybe not as the ruckman we picked him up as?

Did I not say that if Kreuzer does not make it as a CHF, he will make it as a ruck and we will not fit 3 ruckmen in our side?

Tell me one club that regularly plays 3 ruckmen in the same side, and then tell me one club where 3 very good ruckmen coexist at the same club without somebody looking for opportunity elsewhere. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid. If you can stock up on good ruckmen, you are bound to lose one or two now and then. The bonus is you get good trades for them as they are a precious commodity. The trick is that you have to always have a succession plan and look at bringing on the next young ruck for when you do lose one.

 

[Kramer1]

We have 3 youngsters who could potentially command number 1 ruck status. If Kreuzer does not make it as a CHF, he will make it as a ruckman. If this occurs we will not be playing Kreuzer, Hampson and Warnock in the same side. Something will have to give.

This is where I think it could get interesting ODN. Obviously to this point in time teams have seldom played three ruckmen in the same team...and no doubt for good reason.

But with the addition of Warnock I think we have a bit of a first. I can't think of another team that has ever had three such mobile ruckmen on their list. Hampson is one of the quickest on the list, Kruez can motor pretty well (and actually runs to the right spots) and from all reports Warnock is pretty mobile as well.

If all three develop as planned we could break some new ground. Two talls permanently on the field, with one rotating off the bench. With fresh, and relatively fast big men constantly rotating off the bench we could really expose some teams. Of course if could be a shitty idea that never get's off the ground too, but it got me thinking.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What if Hammo doesn't actually want to return, or what if he turns out better than Warnock?

Lots of scepticism in this thread.

It doesn't have to be Hammo, who knows what could happen. It may be Warnock who looks elsewhere again. I am sure of one thing though, unless we always have a ruckman down injured or unless Kreuzer becomes a full time forward of note, we will be fielding offers for one of these guys and someone will become disillusioned with lack of game time.

Look at Port continually having ruckmen wanting to leave at one point as they struggled to get enough time behind Primus and Lade. French left, Primus got injured, Brogan became number 2, Ackland left and so it goes ...

At North they had Burton, then Hale, then McIntosh took over from Hale, Moran threatened to take over from Hale too but Hale came back, Moran left, Hale reinvented himself as a forward, Goldstein started coming on, McIntosh got injured, suddenly the number one ruck months ago was on the trade table briefly.

Let's not be so insular that we think we can hold on to everyone player we want to keep regardless of team balance and game time. We are fortunate that we haven't been in a position of having too many good ruckmen (or is that unfortunate) over the years. Big Nick was joined by Percy Jones, Nick retired, Fitzy came along, Perc retired, Wow Jones came along, Fitzy retired, Harry came along, Allan came along and served a long apprenticeship, Porter came along, Harry retired to give him a chance, and then our ruck stocks fell apart from there.

The squeeze will probably come with these guys too, unless one of them ends up being not very good, and we will be forced to deal then. It's actually a positive to have this many potential gun ruckmen, we just have to increase their value before they start getting antsy about game time.

I don't see this as a cynical exercise, I see it as a very practical one, albeit way to early to be having this discussion.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

This is where I think it could get interesting ODN. Obviously to this point in time teams have seldom played three ruckmen in the same team...and no doubt for good reason.

But with the addition of Warnock I think we have a bit of a first. I can't think of another team that has ever had three such mobile ruckmen on their list. Hampson is one of the quickest on the list, Kruez can motor pretty well (and actually runs to the right spots) and from all reports Warnock is pretty mobile as well.

If all three develop as planned we could break some new ground. Two talls permanently on the field, with one rotating off the bench. With fresh, and relatively fast big men constantly rotating off the bench we could really expose some teams. Of course if could be a shitty idea that never get's off the ground too, but it got me thinking.

Wouldn't it be great if it happened? The game would have to change again though as it is all fast paced corridor footy and gut running winning the day at the moment. Our ruckmen are agile and fast compared to other ruckmen but other teams won't be playing as many on the field and even the fastest ruckmen looks like a statue when mismatched by a pacy midfielder, or rebounding defender. There are never enough one on one marking contests to take advantage of a height advantage either.

I'd love a team full of panther like Waite's to be honest but in reality it will still get carved up by small runners in a balanced side.

 

[HBF]

Now that we snared Warnock, I have no doubt we will trade Hampson to the Gold Coast for an early draft pick. As we signed him up for 3 years we will hold the upper hand as I have no doubt they will target a home grown giant.

What pick could we expect?

I'm not going to say it will happen, but it's possible that Hampson could turn out to be the better ruckman that Kreuzer and Warnock. His athletisism is amazing for a big bloke, and getting a big preseason under his belt and a good run with injuries, he could legitimately set himself for a big season in 2009.

I wouldn't consider trading him at all.

 

[albyg]

Personally i think you guys would just have to accept a mid 2nd rounder. Maybe a 4th rounder thrown in.

I mean he'll have only played 20 or so games by then......

Its where he wants to go after all.

Poor thing you are, support a dud team and have the name of a totally overrated jockey, oh just like ur team!!!

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Did I not say that if Kreuzer does not make it as a CHF, he will make it as a ruck and we will not fit 3 ruckmen in our side?

Tell me one club that regularly plays 3 ruckmen in the same side, and then tell me one club where 3 very good ruckmen coexist at the same club without somebody looking for opportunity elsewhere. It is the nature of the beast I am afraid. If you can stock up on good ruckmen, you are bound to lose one or two now and then. The bonus is you get good trades for them as they are a precious commodity. The trick is that you have to always have a succession plan and look at bringing on the next young ruck for when you do lose one.

Do you honestly believe that Kreuzer is going to be our No.1 Ruckman in the future, or do you think he will be more of a forward or play a similar role to Matty Richo did this year roaming the ground?

See this whole succession plan is exactly what I dont really understand. We get rid of Hampson for a pick, but then pick up another young ruckman we can develop? I dont get it? Where is the logic in losing one ruckman just to pick another one up? We send off the player in whom we have invested a lot of time and development, only to pick up a younger kid who we need to spend the same time and development on. Sounds like we lose a lot of time and effort and investment just to pick up a young kid and do it all again.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

It doesn't have to be Hammo, who knows what could happen. It may be Warnock who looks elsewhere again. I am sure of one thing though, unless we always have a ruckman down injured or unless Kreuzer becomes a full time forward of note, we will be fielding offers for one of these guys and someone will become disillusioned with lack of game time.

Look at Port continually having ruckmen wanting to leave at one point as they struggled to get enough time behind Primus and Lade. French left, Primus got injured, Brogan became number 2, Ackland left and so it goes ...

At North they had Burton, then Hale, then McIntosh took over from Hale, Moran threatened to take over from Hale too but Hale came back, Moran left, Hale reinvented himself as a forward, Goldstein started coming on, McIntosh got injured, suddenly the number one ruck months ago was on the trade table briefly.

Let's not be so insular that we think we can hold on to everyone player we want to keep regardless of team balance and game time. We are fortunate that we haven't been in a position of having too many good ruckmen (or is that unfortunate) over the years. Big Nick was joined by Percy Jones, Nick retired, Fitzy came along, Perc retired, Wow Jones came along, Fitzy retired, Harry came along, Allan came along and served a long apprenticeship, Porter came along, Harry retired to give him a chance, and then our ruck stocks fell apart from there.

The squeeze will probably come with these guys too, unless one of them ends up being not very good, and we will be forced to deal then. It's actually a positive to have this many potential gun ruckmen, we just have to increase their value before they start getting antsy about game time.

I don't see this as a cynical exercise, I see it as a very practical one, albeit way to early to be having this discussion.

Three potentially great ruckman. Injury could happen to any one of them, one of them might not live up to their potential, one of them might be turn into a forward, one of them might play more time on a wing or something. Who knows.

My point is that talking of trading Hampson is way too early, because we simply do not know what the club has in mind, or what the players could turn into.

I think I tend to agree with HBF on this one.

 

[dumb]

handy 3rd rucks are money in the bank these days. either for injuries or draft (down the track).

 

[Blue Dawn]

Go home Shaun.

Take some of your own advice wiz - been enough Freo drivel clogging up our board of late.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Do you honestly believe that Kreuzer is going to be our No.1 Ruckman in the future, or do you think he will be more of a forward or play a similar role to Matty Richo did this year roaming the ground?

We will try him as a forward and if he doesn't make it, he will become a ruckman.

See this whole succession plan is exactly what I dont really understand. We get rid of Hampson for a pick, but then pick up another young ruckman we can develop? I dont get it? Where is the logic in losing one ruckman just to pick another one up? We send off the player in whom we have invested a lot of time and development, only to pick up a younger kid who we need to spend the same time and development on. Sounds like we lose a lot of time and effort and investment just to pick up a young kid and do it all again.

It is not up to the club whether to trade or not. Freo did not want to trade Warnock, Warnock wanted to go because he didn't want to be stuck behind Sandilands. Seaby wants to go because he doesn't want to be stuck behind Cox. Some are content to hang around and be part of a ruck duo getting similar game time, few are willing to hang around and be the third ruckman off the bench while one rests forward and the other does the bulk of the ruck work. If they are all good, we won't want to trade them. Invariably, the decision is not the club's to make.

 

[BlueYoss]

Let's not be so insular that we think we can hold on to everyone player we want to keep regardless of team balance and game time.

Bit unfair on AWG there ODN, she wasn't suggesting 'everyone' just Tex and Sugar Shaun

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Bit unfair on AWG there ODN, she wasn't suggesting 'everyone' just Tex and Sugar Shaun

Right ... carry on then.

 

[Bluebear]

So its no coincidence that we signed up a player for 3 years when he has shown no improvement. We know the Gold coast will be after him at the end of 2009. It would have been terrible to not hold any barganing power.

Would you take a top 12 pick in 2009 if it was offered?

I feel sorry for you.

To be so public in your lack of understanding of our great game.

Truth is, IF Warnock develops as we hope he might, and IF Kreuzer does too, then Hampson may well be asked if he WANTS to go home. If he does then we are well placed.
If he doesn't then as has been pointed out, his family are down here, and with Kreuzer more likely to push forward now, their may well be room for both Hampson and Warnock............who will be our backup if one of them is injured?

 

[Wizard]

Take some of your own advice wiz - been enough Freo drivel clogging up our board of late.

I bet its not near as much as there was from you mob on our board.

 

[Bluebear]

I bet its not near as much as there was from you mob on our board.

How is it going on your board Wiz?

Last I looked there were a whole bunch of guys hoping Warnock would get injured and the like.

Has it settled a little?

 

[Jack TY]

Yep, congrats GC17 on your new ruckman.......... Brent Renouf! Same draft as Hamma, premiership player and recruited from Southport which is on the GOLD COAST. Simple really.

 

[HBF]

Do you honestly believe that Kreuzer is going to be our No.1 Ruckman in the future, or do you think he will be more of a forward or play a similar role to Matty Richo did this year roaming the ground?

Ratts was on SEN during the week AWG, and he said that Kreuzer was drafted as a ruckman, and this is where the club will focus most of their development for our young gun.

Suspect you will see him play a similar type in 2009 that he did this year, with Cam Cloke spending more time up forward.

 

[TorresIsGod]

Ah well, I just tried to bag Jeremias, but my internet connection isn't so strong from up the Gold Coast, I'll try again at a later time.

 

[BlueYoss]

You idiot. Absolute muppet.

My VRS assures me that you have a very good VRS in these matters?

 

[DamianBis]

I feel sorry for you.

To be so public in your lack of understanding of our great game.

Truth is, IF Warnock develops as we hope he might, and IF Kreuzer does too, then Hampson may well be asked if he WANTS to go home. If he does then we are well placed.
If he doesn't then as has been pointed out, his family are down here, and with Kreuzer more likely to push forward now, their may well be room for both Hampson and Warnock............who will be our backup if one of them is injured?

Kruezer? Cloke? Jacobs/other young ruckman that could get lucky

 

[OZBomb]

... Look at Port continually having ruckmen wanting to leave at one point as they struggled to get enough time behind Primus and Lade. French left, Primus got injured, Brogan became number 2, Ackland left and so it goes ...

At North they had Burton, then Hale, then McIntosh took over from Hale, Moran threatened to take over from Hale too but Hale came back, Moran left, Hale reinvented himself as a forward, Goldstein started coming on, McIntosh got injured, suddenly the number one ruck months ago was on the trade table briefly...

Excellent, Excellent Point. You will always get over the odds for a back-up ruckman with potential and if all three of our guys improve to the level we expect them too, then one of them is likely to move at some point... Not in the next two years, but at some point. It's smart list management.

 

[Pratt = Premiers]

They clearly signed Hammo up for this reason. What us carlton supporters need to get through our head is we are NOT going to be able to hold on to every young gun we have. There is a salary cap and regardless of how much we try, there will be other clubs able to offer certain players better contracts. By getting Warnock and having Kruezer and Hampson, at least one will have to go. Odds are one of the three will turn out to be a dud anyway, but even if they all turned out to be guns, you can't put all three in the one side.
So if this is the case, why not keep them as a bit of insurance to get a top round pick come 2010. GC17 will be looking for a ready made ruckman, if we happen to have three on our list, we could easily get a top 10 or even 5 pick out of it.