Review Good/Bad vs St Kilda, R9 2023

[Maddogmetro]

How?..

You might be just giving an easy handball off to the goal kicker running past you..

Whereas the bloke who dished it off to you weaved in and out of traffic, took two bounces, fended off 3 players and then laced it out onto your chest from 50m..

How could that be classed as a lessor part of the chain?..

“There is nothing about the stat that says that one is better than the other”

Exactly!!… and thats why its a strange stat.. what makes being the second last bloke in the chain anymore special than all the fxxkn other blokes in the chain?

I think it is an interesting distinction - and one that can paint a picture. That's the thing about stats. You can continue to break them down, and that breakdown won't always be useful. But sometimes it is. I guess we can agree to disagree on this point.

 

[arrowman]

Counting and football.

Haha, and football especially. I like the way the guy calling the game is sort of a low-key, totally dispassionate version of a commentator. At the other end of the scale from "Woweee! From the paint! That's special!"

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

What have you got on Keays banner for his 100th

"Congratulations Ben Keays on your 100th and hopefully final game"

 

[CrowBloke]

Again.. I just plucked olivers and lairds names out of thin air as two names to use in the example..

Not a great choice for comparison, for the very reason you stated:

I couldve picked any names but oliver came to mind because of his awesome handballing abilities which are far better than most in the comp including laird.

It's unfair, if not ill-logic, to compare one of the best handballers in the League to anyone else.
Some of Oliver's handballs make my jaw-drop, so freakishly good-to-advantage.

I take your point, though.
A great handball from anybody gets as much DE credit as a handball which puts a teammate in hospital.

 

[Golumless]

Wow… what an insightful comment maddog..

But it still doesnt answer my question on why the last disposal to the the goal kicker is a “goal assist” and the second to last one, which equally assists in creating the goal is called something else…

I mean it's kind of in the name. One is the touch that sets up a goal and one is someone is involved in a scoring chain (either goal/behind). So it's tighter and likely to make sure they get their due for creating a successful shot. Whereas the person two+ disposals back had no real control on the end result outside of not ****ing up their part.

 

[Coopers]

Wow… what an insightful comment maddog..

But it still doesnt answer my question on why the last disposal to the the goal kicker is a “goal assist” and the second to last one, which equally assists in creating the goal is called something else…

Cos you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Brett Cummings]

'Take this stat, and now take out a game which I don't like because it is against my argument, and look how bad it looks!'

He did the same thing to carlton last year and it was against one team. Clearly don't understand clams point.

 

[Maddogmetro]

He did the same thing to carlton last year and it was against one team. Clearly don't understand clams point.

The point is that it is a logical fallacy to cherry-pick data to support your point.

 

[CrowBloke]

How?..
You might be just giving an easy handball off to the goal kicker running past you..
Whereas the bloke who dished it off to you weaved in and out of traffic, took two bounces, fended off 3 players and then laced it out onto your chest from 50m..
How could that be classed as a lessor part of the chain?..

Good example, good logic. I am compelled to agree .

"GA" is just the name of the last link resulting in a goal, but Maddogmetro has a point as well.
If a player is in position and hands off well enough to result in 2 or more goals, they are doing something right.
eg Tex is adept at faking a handball or selling candy often enough to either hand off for a GA or snap a goal himself which makes him a real asset to the team.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Cos you have to draw the line somewhere.

I dont think you do.. I reckon every possession in the chain should just be assigned the one stat type.

Too much over analysing of the game.

And I think a lot of it in recent years has been created not for the good of actual game of football but for all the games and betting on the side like supercoach and fantasy

 

[CrowBloke]

Too much over analysing of the game.
And I think a lot of it in recent years has been created not for the good of actual game of football but for all the games and betting on the side like supercoach and fantasy

Can hardly believe it; gotta agree again!

It's a fad copied from American football, very annoying, naming every possible action so that Commentators have got something to talk/argue about (mind you, not that BF Crows-supporting Brothers-in-arms ever argue about those things, being too UNITED and all ... ).

 

[Dirty Bird]

We have had Mothers Day fixtures nearly every year I reckon. Previously it used to be vs Melb at the G, and they were always shocking games with barely 20,000 there.

This year we don't even play in Melb until Round 15, which is nearly impossible when you think of how many things have to occur for that to happen!

Since port started requesting ANZAC Rd games (Note: The year Adelaide hosted ANZAC Rd, was a showdown)

2004 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Night (2 rds later)
2005 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Mothers Day (2 rds later)
2006 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Saturday Night (2 rds later)
2007 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Afternoon (2 rds later)
2008 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Mothers Day (2 rds later)
2009 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Mothers Day (2 rds later)
2010 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Mothers Day (2 rds later)
2011 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Friday Night (2 rds later)
2012 - Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Saturday Afternoon (2 rds later)
2013 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Afternoon (2 rds later)
2014 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Afternoon (2 rds later)
2015 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Mothers day (2 rds later)
2016 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Mothers day (2 rds later)
2017 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Twilight (2 rds later)
2018 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Twilight (3 rds later)
2019 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Night (2 rds later)
2021 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Saturday Night (2 rds later)
2022 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Port Adelaide Friday Night (2 rds later)
2023 - Port Adelaide ANZAC Rd ---> Adelaide Mothers Day (3 rds later)

So in that span, if things were equal with the home/away, Adelaide should've had 3 games the week of mothers day (2012, 2018, 2023) but we've had 6 (2006, 2008-10, 2012 and 2023) but we've had 4 mothers day games (2008-10, 23) where as Port's had 3 (2005, 2015-16)

End of the day. It isn't much of an issue for us any more. This year was the first time in over 10 years we were even at home the rd of Mothers day.

I just have to laugh at when Port fans complain about getting Mothers day, it's the side effect of your request (ANZAC Rd as the home team)

Just like the 2 week Indigenous Rd is a byproduct of our request. (We let Port monopolise ANZAC Rd in SA, so we requested indigenous rd as the home team as ours. Port complain, it becomes 2 weeks)

What we need to do now is find a way to request a big game each year or something. I don't want to request opening Gather round because we wont host it perpetually. I personally eye off Adelaide-West Coast/Sydney/Richmond/Port Adelaide (one of them, dont care) for Good Friday at night. That's a slot vacant atm, and due to North's game being 7, this is foxtel. So it can be an all-non-vic matchup. (Note - You have to avoid Brisbane/Collingwood/Geelong/Hawthorn/North Melbourne/Essendon/Maybe Carlton that rd due to other commitments (Well, not really Essendon, but sometimes ANZAC Day falls on Easter weekend - So best be safe))

 

[ContrarianCrow]

I wonder if one of the reasons it is shrouded in secrecy, apart from protecting their methods/IP, is because it's a bit rubbery and they'd prefer that remained hidden away.

Like boxing judges, gymnastics judges etc. A subjective element to it.

And they figure it doesn't really matter if things are a bit rubbery. It all comes out in the wash and you're just after a general impression anyway

Given the second caller is watching the vision to correct any errors from the live caller, it should be reasonably consistent overall. That being said, watch a game in the wet when there's 20 players around the ball and it's pinballing around for a good minute. Now, try to identify every player that gains possession, has a disposal (even a knock-on), tackles another player or even impacts a disposal. Oh, and you have to get them all in the correct order as it happens, even if the ball changes hands 5 times in ten seconds, and correctly identify whether a possession is a hard-ball or loose-ball get each time. And identify what counts as the clearance and whether each disposal is effective or ineffective. That's where any potential 'subjectiveness' comes into it.

The Keays "assist" to Walker is probably a great example of this - I've watched it 10 times and I genuinely can't work out whether Keays got a handball out to Walker or if the ball just spilt out. In the end the CD caller has to make a call - he either handballed it to Walker, or he was dispossessed in the tackle and Walker got a loose-ball get. That one call impacts:

• Keays' disposals and disposal efficiency
• Keays getting a goal assist or not
• Walker getting an uncontested or contested possession (either a handball receive or a loose-ball get)
• The Saints defenders getting credited with a tackle or not - if Keays gets an effective handball to Walker, then there's no tackle as they didn't impede his disposal.

 

[CrowBloke]

Given the second caller is watching the vision to correct any errors from the live caller, it should be reasonably consistent overall. That being said, watch a game in the wet when there's 20 players around the ball and it's pinballing around for a good minute. Now, try to identify every player that gains possession, has a disposal (even a knock-on), tackles another player or even impacts a disposal. Oh, and you have to get them all in the correct order as it happens, even if the ball changes hands 5 times in ten seconds, and correctly identify whether a possession is a hard-ball or loose-ball get each time. And identify what counts as the clearance and whether each disposal is effective or ineffective. That's where any potential 'subjectiveness' comes into it.

The Keays "assist" to Walker is probably a great example of this - I've watched it 10 times and I genuinely can't work out whether Keays got a handball out to Walker or if the ball just spilt out. In the end the CD caller has to make a call - he either handballed it to Walker, or he was dispossessed in the tackle and Walker got a loose-ball get. That one call impacts:

• Keays' disposals and disposal efficiency
• Keays getting a goal assist or not
• Walker getting an uncontested or contested possession (either a handball receive or a loose-ball get)
• The Saints defenders getting credited with a tackle or not - if Keays gets an effective handball to Walker, then there's no tackle as they didn't impede his disposal.

I admire your effort in compiling that, but good luck to them actually doing it

 

[Golumless]

I dont think you do.. I reckon every possession in the chain should just be assigned the one stat type.

Too much over analysing of the game.

And I think a lot of it in recent years has been created not for the good of actual game of football but for all the games and betting on the side like supercoach and fantasy

Nah I'm looking forward to the day there is a genuine WAR stat. That said, it's more likely goal assists is a legacy stat, seeing it is just as basic of a stat as goals and disposals (and footywire has GA being recorded years before SI).

I do kind of agree, though more analyzing it shows how at odds reliably winning is to what people considered a great product. The fact scores have trended downwards in the last 25 years is testament to that. Outside of game rating points, most would be club directed and what is starting to be seen as buzz numbers.

 

[MRB37]

I have heard a few mentions of our outside run being a positive, but I disagree and feel it's been a weakness all year and still was in that game.

I think we did well with moving the ball quickly, especially to the outside, but the actual run and carry was still not there.

I don't remember that many running bounces are long runs at all. I remember Jones and Hinge receiving and running out of the backlines through the middle, but on the whole not alot of run.

I think that's an element we could still work on.

I think a lot of that is by design. We usually have the wave running and guys to provide support when we get it in the corridor, so you get quick movement, but there's less worry about having a speedy player to provide individual run and carry and more flicking it around the moving wave to get through and around any opposition. We've seen guys like Rory Laird get involved in that, someone who isn't necessarily quick, but in that wave he's part of quick ball movement. I'm guessing part of that is to provide defensive help if we turn it over, but also throw in an element of unpredictability into where and who will be delivering the ball up the ground.

 

[footy4ever]

The Fugly

I watched Ross Lyon's presser this morning.

At first it was hilarious with Rucci being sat on his arse with Ross telling him he didn't understand Rucci's typically over-worded and loaded question, but then he spent the rest of the presser proclaiming how Saints dominated the second quarter...dominated I tells ya... Apparently they really exposed us. Then he went on some mumbling journey about how the numbers meant Saints should have won the game (paraphrasing here of course but you get my drift). He was basically in denial from that point. - A rambling almost incoherent speech about how Saints are so good anyway he's become the all-forgiving messiah.

I really wanted to nab him as our coach when we signed Nicks.

But after listening to that, the guy's a class A w***er with his head so far up his own backside it's coming out of his mouth.

So glad he was never in contention for the Crows' Job.

 

[BunjiMac]

I think a lot of that is by design. We usually have the wave running and guys to provide support when we get it in the corridor, so you get quick movement, but there's less worry about having a speedy player to provide individual run and carry and more flicking it around the moving wave to get through and around any opposition. We've seen guys like Rory Laird get involved in that, someone who isn't necessarily quick, but in that wave he's part of quick ball movement. I'm guessing part of that is to provide defensive help if we turn it over, but also throw in an element of unpredictability into where and who will be delivering the ball up the ground.

I get it.and it makes sense, but I still like to see that run and carry as it drags defences out of their systems and can cause chaos.

It's the one element I'd like us to add to the team.

Also I think teams are becoming wary of this and the good teams will shut down the quick ball movement. We need multiple avenues.

 

[MRB37]

The Fugly

I watched Ross Lyon's presser this morning.

At first it was hilarious with Rucci being sat on his arse with Ross telling him he didn't understand Rucci's typically over-worded and loaded question, but then he spent the rest of the presser proclaiming how Saints dominated the second quarter...dominated I tells ya... Apparently they really exposed us. Then he went on some mumbling journey about how the numbers meant Saints should have won the game (paraphrasing here of course but you get my drift). He was basically in denial from that point. - A rambling almost incoherent speech about how Saints are so good anyway he's become the all-forgiving messiah.

I really wanted to nab him as our coach when we signed Nicks.

But after listening to that, the guy's a class A w***er with his he'd so far up his own backside it's coming out of his mouth.

So glad he was never in contention for the Crows' Job.

Yea, I heard that "dominated" bit and went and rewatched the quarter and it really didn't feel like it. They may have dominated elements of the game that quarter for periods, but he made it sound like we absolutely got knocked on our ass where I felt like we were still fairly well on top until about the 10 minute mark where we conservative and that helped bring the Saints back into the quarter.

And it did feel a bit like denial where he kinda chalked it up to we just had a lucky day and the "analytics" would say normally the Saints would win that game.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

All true but..

How often do we find ourselves saying “that was Murray’s goal” or “that was doedee’s goal”..

When they have done something awesome in defence and its resulted in a turnover and the team has then run the ball up the other end and scored a goal..

I just think it all should be classed as a “score involvement” whether you are the first guy in the chain of possessions that end in a goal or the fifth guy in the chain. Why the last guy in the chain that hands off to the bloke that kicks the goal is classed as something different just seems a bit over the top IMO..

I do like the I50 target met as a stat , the most important kick in football

All stats have relevance but also limitations

 

[FR0GGY]

Given the second caller is watching the vision to correct any errors from the live caller, it should be reasonably consistent overall. That being said, watch a game in the wet when there's 20 players around the ball and it's pinballing around for a good minute. Now, try to identify every player that gains possession, has a disposal (even a knock-on), tackles another player or even impacts a disposal. Oh, and you have to get them all in the correct order as it happens, even if the ball changes hands 5 times in ten seconds, and correctly identify whether a possession is a hard-ball or loose-ball get each time. And identify what counts as the clearance and whether each disposal is effective or ineffective. That's where any potential 'subjectiveness' comes into it.

The Keays "assist" to Walker is probably a great example of this - I've watched it 10 times and I genuinely can't work out whether Keays got a handball out to Walker or if the ball just spilt out. In the end the CD caller has to make a call - he either handballed it to Walker, or he was dispossessed in the tackle and Walker got a loose-ball get. That one call impacts:

• Keays' disposals and disposal efficiency
• Keays getting a goal assist or not
• Walker getting an uncontested or contested possession (either a handball receive or a loose-ball get)
• The Saints defenders getting credited with a tackle or not - if Keays gets an effective handball to Walker, then there's no tackle as they didn't impede his disposal.

We probably need a “not sure” category.
Keays had 15 disposals and 10 not sures on the weekend.

 

[baldandbroke]

So.. maybe you can explain it then B&B.

It was more a comment around referring to the people who design and collect the stats as having nothing better to do with their lives … by people spending their spare time posting anonymously on a footy website.

 

[WeeBlake]

More uncredited good:-
3rd q, Fog doesn’t show much on the stat sheet but had three big contests, one of which Rankine crumbed for a goal, another (with follow up contest and hand pass) Keays missed a snap from a metre out.

 

[VictorianCrow85]

The Fugly

I watched Ross Lyon's presser this morning.

At first it was hilarious with Rucci being sat on his arse with Ross telling him he didn't understand Rucci's typically over-worded and loaded question, but then he spent the rest of the presser proclaiming how Saints dominated the second quarter...dominated I tells ya... Apparently they really exposed us. Then he went on some mumbling journey about how the numbers meant Saints should have won the game (paraphrasing here of course but you get my drift). He was basically in denial from that point. - A rambling almost incoherent speech about how Saints are so good anyway he's become the all-forgiving messiah.

I really wanted to nab him as our coach when we signed Nicks.

But after listening to that, the guy's a class A w***er with his he'd so far up his own backside it's coming out of his mouth.

So glad he was never in contention for the Crows' Job.

I never wanted him, between his over the top defensive footy & the way his eyes dart around the room at press conference unable to make eye contact something always feels off.

I think he's a good coach but is over rated a bit with the Ross the Boss stuff.

Will be interesting to see if the Saints come back to earth a bit as the season unfolds and now that they've taken a drubbing though they've got an overall decent draw so that will potentially help them.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

It is also just a stat which tells a story. There is nothing about the stat that says that one is better than the other, just a stat that distinguishes the last possession leading to goal (as it is able to be counted).

But if you are consistently being that player who has the last possession before a goal, it paints a story of your importance to the team's scoring ability.

Exactly … in isolation means a little bit

In long term stat gathering - it means a lot ie the top goal assist players in a game, Season , career tend to be pretty important to winning games