I understand that argument but equally why do you think rape, sexual assault and domestic violence victims often don't report?
Most of those cases are circumstantial and are he said she said.
Should we not investigate them?
-
LIVE: GWS Giants v Brisbane Lions - 7:30PM Sat
Squiggle tips Lions at 65% chance -- What's your tip? -- Team line-ups »
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 3 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion Hawthorn - Clarkson - Fagan Racism Investigation
- Thread starter WaynesWorld19
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Most of those cases are circumstantial and are he said she said.
Should we not investigate them?
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
RUOK?xampaigne and apple slices
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
They were investigated by 2 different sources previously, a highly regarded retired judge and a leading law firm, both found a glaring lack of evidence. Unless somehow some clear evidence not before found that can be backed up is forthcoming can't see how the case flies.
Innocent until found guilty is still a thing.
Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's how verbal, stalking etc type crimes happen and people don't get convicted.
Not saying it did, just that there's really no point arguing or attempting to downplay Cyrils claims.
Only the people involved would know the truth.
What kind of evidence? Video? Photographs? Third party witnesses? There was never going to be any of those from the outset. It will surely fail in court.
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
Cyril and his co-accusers and their legal team took this to the Federal court seeking damages $$$$ and an apology so it's on them to prove their accusations...noting it's my understanding it's the Hawthorn Football Club not the individuals Clarkson, Fagan and Burt the action is against.
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
If that's the case their legal team would want to be doing it on a pro bono deal or it could get ugly for them. Surely they've got some tangible proof to put on the table to take it this far?
Wonder what the total legal bill is for them to this point? Assuming if there was enough evidence it would've come out at mediation between the parties so it's odd to me to keep going through this process?
- Oct 2, 2022
- 5,580
- 7,525
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
Agreed. It will be on the balance of probabilities, and there's certainly a chance there could be enough cumulative evidence to make it more likely than not.
I think the hard thing is how things are perceived vs what happened can be different and that is not a lie on either side. I have a perfect example of this, in a previous work life I worked with someone (female) who I got along very well with and she put in a claim vs someone else (male) who I didn't like.
Female came in to work and asked where she would be working for the day (as in which desk / office) and the Male said you can sit in here with me or you can go in the back office and spread out. (FWIW I wasn't there and this is the story told to me)
Female interpretation was - the spread out in the back office is a sexual statement and is grossly inappropriate for a workplace
Male interpretation was - Back office has more room as the desk is bigger and you won't be sharing with someone else
All things considered it should have been worded better but not something I would consider sexual harassment.
So applying this to the hawks saga:
Hawthorn player comes in for a chat with the coach, says he has lots going on in life lately and gives examples. Coach sees red flags and says to the young man that the woman is bad news and it shouldn't be this much hard work. Player says woman is pregnant, coach says well that's not going to make anything easier and you really need to focus on your career if you want to get games and stay on the list.
Hawks players tells partner his version of events which is that they should break up and get rid of the baby. Partner is furious, holds grudge.
** I am not covering up for clarko and co, every chance they think they said things in a different way to what came out of their mouth as well. It's sad that it has impacted so many people for so long, lawyers only winners here
Female came in to work and asked where she would be working for the day (as in which desk / office) and the Male said you can sit in here with me or you can go in the back office and spread out. (FWIW I wasn't there and this is the story told to me)
Female interpretation was - the spread out in the back office is a sexual statement and is grossly inappropriate for a workplace
Male interpretation was - Back office has more room as the desk is bigger and you won't be sharing with someone else
All things considered it should have been worded better but not something I would consider sexual harassment.
So applying this to the hawks saga:
Hawthorn player comes in for a chat with the coach, says he has lots going on in life lately and gives examples. Coach sees red flags and says to the young man that the woman is bad news and it shouldn't be this much hard work. Player says woman is pregnant, coach says well that's not going to make anything easier and you really need to focus on your career if you want to get games and stay on the list.
Hawks players tells partner his version of events which is that they should break up and get rid of the baby. Partner is furious, holds grudge.
** I am not covering up for clarko and co, every chance they think they said things in a different way to what came out of their mouth as well. It's sad that it has impacted so many people for so long, lawyers only winners here
The most interesting thing in there is that Clarko rocked up uninvited to a players meeting with a guitar to serenade them.
Innocence and guilt isn't a consideration in civil claims.
The Court makes an assessment based on the balance of probabilities. You underestimate the power of witness evidence in claims such as these.
Mitchell already has history with Clarko and was treated like sh!t at one stage.
That would go toward Clarko's defence to prove he was a campaigner to everyone not just the indigenous guys, and therefore it not being a racist issue.
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
I just find it strange that Shaun Burgoyne and Chance Bateman who were both at the club under Clarkson have never had the same experience. It's fairly common for the indigenous lads to gravitate into their little groups within football clubs at all levels and there's nothing wrong with that/ In fact both have spoken in glowing terms of their time at Hawthorn? I remembered reading an article a while back re Chance Bateman and it's still up on the Age website.
How the Hawks helped Bateman through the darkest point of his life
Chance Bateman is no stranger to racism in football, but it’s also where he has found a deep sense of belonging. It’s why he in honoured to have helped design Hawthorn’s Indigenous guernsey this year.
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
Yet both Shaun Burgoyne and Chance Bateman or Lance Franklin it doesn't seem had any such problems with Clarkson, Fagan or Burt?
3 – Chance Bateman
(First indigenous player to play 100 games, play in a premiership, to receive HFC Life Membership)
Born June 21, 1981
Recruited Perth
Played 2000-2012
Guernsey 10
Debut Order 795
First Game Round 3, 2000 v Brisbane Lions
Final Game Round 21, 2012 v Gold Coast
Games 177
Goals 67
Premiership 2008
Premiership Box Hill 2001
Best Clubman 2008
Life Member 2010
Bateman learnt his football during his formative years in York and then with Perth in Westar Rules. He was an Under 18 All-Australian and in the squad for the Westar state side in 1999.
Drafted by Hawthorn at pick 48 in the 1999 draft, the Hawks considered themselves lucky as he was thought to have been an early pick. His light frame made him a longer-term prospect as he would require further physical development. His early career was interrupted by a variety of injuries. Each time he bounced back and became a key member of the team.
Bateman said the true sense of worth for Aboriginal players was founded on their family's values and strength and that fact provided him with his toughest times when he lost his sister Candace in a tragic train accident in 2001. He was desperate to return home to be with his parents and was shattered when he could not work a trade with West Coast or Fremantle.
"I'd stay at Hawthorn for as long as they'd have me, they've been fantastic for me. You don't really think too much about the milestones as they're coming up, but as you pass them you sort of look back with a bit of pride. I'm our first indigenous life member and to have had a small part in the club's history is pretty special."
In 2006 he managed to play 21 games and came 12th in the Best & Fairest award. Bateman was known for his trademark dreadlocks. He developed into one of Hawthorn's most valuable players, his speed and hardness at the ball while playing on the wing allowed the team to play a free-flowing brand of the game. Bateman averaged 20 possessions in his 21 games in 2006 and was hitting top form just before the 2007 season. His elite speed was recognised, and he was named in the 2006 International Rules side to tour Ireland.
Bateman said a major career highlight was when he captained the Hawks in an indigenous round victory over West Coast at Launceston in 2007 when the Eagles were led by David Wirrpunda.
Bateman kicked Hawthorn's first goal in the 2008 Grand Final. He had his dreadlocks cut off for charity after the Grand Final victory. The money was donated to the Rioli Fund, set up to improve Aboriginal health throughout Australia.
Along with captain Sam Mitchell, Bateman was the only player to play in all games in 2009. Bateman was put on Hawthorn's veterans list in 2011 and played his last game in Round 21, 2012 when he announced his retirement.
Last edited:
- Oct 2, 2022
- 5,580
- 7,525
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
To be fair, that one particular player in a club didn't have it happen doesn't mean that these other players didn't.Yet both Shaun Burgoyne and Chance Bateman or Lance Franklin it doesn't seem had any such problems with Clarkson, Fagan or Burt?
3 – Chance Bateman
(First indigenous player to play 100 games, play in a premiership, to receive HFC Life Membership)
Born June 21, 1981
Recruited Perth
Played 2000-2012
Guernsey 10
Debut Order 795
First Game Round 3, 2000 v Brisbane Lions
Final Game Round 21, 2012 v Gold Coast
Games 177
Goals 67
Premiership 2008
Premiership Box Hill 2001
Best Clubman 2008
Life Member 2010
Bateman learnt his football during his formative years in York and then with Perth in Westar Rules. He was an Under 18 All-Australian and in the squad for the Westar state side in 1999.
Drafted by Hawthorn at pick 48 in the 1999 draft, the Hawks considered themselves lucky as he was thought to have been an early pick. His light frame made him a longer-term prospect as he would require further physical development. His early career was interrupted by a variety of injuries. Each time he bounced back and became a key member of the team.
Bateman said the true sense of worth for Aboriginal players was founded on their family's values and strength and that fact provided him with his toughest times when he lost his sister Candace in a tragic train accident in 2001. He was desperate to return home to be with his parents and was shattered when he could not work a trade with West Coast or Fremantle.
"I'd stay at Hawthorn for as long as they'd have me, they've been fantastic for me. You don't really think too much about the milestones as they're coming up, but as you pass them you sort of look back with a bit of pride. I'm our first indigenous life member and to have had a small part in the club's history is pretty special."
In 2006 he managed to play 21 games and came 12th in the Best & Fairest award. Bateman was known for his trademark dreadlocks. He developed into one of Hawthorn's most valuable players, his speed and hardness at the ball while playing on the wing allowed the team to play a free-flowing brand of the game. Bateman averaged 20 possessions in his 21 games in 2006 and was hitting top form just before the 2007 season. His elite speed was recognised, and he was named in the 2006 International Rules side to tour Ireland.
Bateman said a major career highlight was when he captained the Hawks in an indigenous round victory over West Coast at Launceston in 2007 when the Eagles were led by David Wirrpunda.
Bateman kicked Hawthorn's first goal in the 2008 Grand Final. He had his dreadlocks cut off for charity after the Grand Final victory. The money was donated to the Rioli Fund, set up to improve Aboriginal health throughout Australia.
Along with captain Sam Mitchell, Bateman was the only player to play in all games in 2009. Bateman was put on Hawthorn's veterans list in 2011 and played his last game in Round 21, 2012 when he announced his retirement.
They'll have testimony of very particular and personal things that happened to them, and the court will have to decide how likely it was and what damage was caused.
- Aug 9, 2019
- 35,184
- 61,278
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Panthers, GWV Rebels, Central Augusta
One particular player?
Chance Bateman, Shaun Burgoyne, Lance Franklin, Mark Williams, Brad Hill, Jed Anderson. Jarman Impey, Chad Wingard all played under Clarkson, have any of them made claims of this type of treatment?
Drugs Are Bad Mackay?
Moderator
- May 24, 2006
- 79,309
- 160,363
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Redbacks, Sturt, Liverpool, Arizona
- Moderator
- #1,796
I'd be interested to see what all the previous 100+ game indigenous players had to say about Hawthorn over timeYet both Shaun Burgoyne and Chance Bateman or Lance Franklin it doesn't seem had any such problems with Clarkson, Fagan or Burt?
3 – Chance Bateman
(First indigenous player to play 100 games, play in a premiership, to receive HFC Life Membership)
Born June 21, 1981
Recruited Perth
Played 2000-2012
Guernsey 10
Debut Order 795
First Game Round 3, 2000 v Brisbane Lions
Final Game Round 21, 2012 v Gold Coast
Games 177
Goals 67
Premiership 2008
Premiership Box Hill 2001
Best Clubman 2008
Life Member 2010
Bateman learnt his football during his formative years in York and then with Perth in Westar Rules. He was an Under 18 All-Australian and in the squad for the Westar state side in 1999.
Drafted by Hawthorn at pick 48 in the 1999 draft, the Hawks considered themselves lucky as he was thought to have been an early pick. His light frame made him a longer-term prospect as he would require further physical development. His early career was interrupted by a variety of injuries. Each time he bounced back and became a key member of the team.
Bateman said the true sense of worth for Aboriginal players was founded on their family's values and strength and that fact provided him with his toughest times when he lost his sister Candace in a tragic train accident in 2001. He was desperate to return home to be with his parents and was shattered when he could not work a trade with West Coast or Fremantle.
"I'd stay at Hawthorn for as long as they'd have me, they've been fantastic for me. You don't really think too much about the milestones as they're coming up, but as you pass them you sort of look back with a bit of pride. I'm our first indigenous life member and to have had a small part in the club's history is pretty special."
In 2006 he managed to play 21 games and came 12th in the Best & Fairest award. Bateman was known for his trademark dreadlocks. He developed into one of Hawthorn's most valuable players, his speed and hardness at the ball while playing on the wing allowed the team to play a free-flowing brand of the game. Bateman averaged 20 possessions in his 21 games in 2006 and was hitting top form just before the 2007 season. His elite speed was recognised, and he was named in the 2006 International Rules side to tour Ireland.
Bateman said a major career highlight was when he captained the Hawks in an indigenous round victory over West Coast at Launceston in 2007 when the Eagles were led by David Wirrpunda.
Bateman kicked Hawthorn's first goal in the 2008 Grand Final. He had his dreadlocks cut off for charity after the Grand Final victory. The money was donated to the Rioli Fund, set up to improve Aboriginal health throughout Australia.
Along with captain Sam Mitchell, Bateman was the only player to play in all games in 2009. Bateman was put on Hawthorn's veterans list in 2011 and played his last game in Round 21, 2012 when he announced his retirement.
Not sure if serious?
Didn't Hawthorn have a quiet policy not to draft indigenous players until quite recently?
A bit like the "white Australia policy, but different"
Hawthorn's history of indigenous players
History of Hawthorn Football Club's indigenous players
Basically 2 players prior the mid 60's and then no one until this century ..Hawthorn's history of indigenous players
History of Hawthorn Football Club's indigenous playerswww.hawthornfc.com.au
Those 2 gentlemen played a grand total of 18 games between them with both on the list for 2 seasons each
And then with Chance Bateman being the first of the AFL era in 2000
- May 27, 2016
- 555
- 1,008
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
I may be wrong but my understanding is the indigenous players didn’t take part in the investigation because they didn’t trust it.
So that’s why there was no evidence
Similar threads
- Sticky
