NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[buttermuffs]

That 10 days would need to include seeking out the ABC journalist, being interviewed, the article being put together and reviewed and two days seeking comment from the coaches.

I think that they were talking to the ABC before the AFL even had the report.

Possibly, they were within their right to do that. It’s also understandable and possible that when they met others who experienced the same, they decided they wanted to take some action since there was no guarantee the review was going to change anything.


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[MacMum]

...so Dusty Martin's great grandmother was Indigenous (his fathers grandmother)

..my great grandmother was Italian (I'm in my 70's) so can I claim to be Italian. My other greats were Scottish and Irish.....and further back a possibility of Indigenous, No-one left to confirm.

Which one will I claim to be?

..by the way, I claim to be Australian. No other, I am what I am today.

We all have a mish mash of DNA I suspect..

 

[freddy mercury]

They literally said they aren’t financially motivated, and have said they want the accused to understand what the impact of their actions (and I assume an apology from that).

The statement put out I think pretty clearly shows that a) they don’t necessarily think that the three accused had racists intentions and b) shows they aren’t just money chasing.

You can win if you are the accusers. If they want money then they’re chasing a payout and disingenuous. If they want reconciliation then why even bother doing all this in the first place.

I’ve seriously seen Eddie Betts one many occasions always talk about how indigenous players don’t want to speak up because they want punishment. They speak up because they just want it to change. So many people simply refuse to accept that maybe indigenous people don’t want revenge but just want to be heard and for changes to be made. Always painted as being unreasonable or selfish and it being unnecessary that they have to speak out so loudly.


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If they apologise and they don't think it's sincere, then what?

 

[buttermuffs]

If they apologise and they don't think it's sincere, then what?

I think that falls under the accused not actually understanding their actions and the hurt they caused? This isn’t the gotcha you think it is.


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[Maddo11]

...so Dusty Martin's great grandmother was Indigenous (his fathers grandmother)

..my great grandmother was Italian (I'm in my 70's) so can I claim to be Italian. My other greats were Scottish and Irish.....and further back a possibility of Indigenous, No-one left to confirm.

Which one will I claim to be?

..by the way, I claim to be Australian. No other, I am what I am today.

We all have a mish mash of DNA I suspect..

 

[freddy mercury]

I think that falls under the accused not actually understanding their actions and the hurt they caused? This isn’t the gotcha you think it is.


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I just hope they don't apologise until found guilty in a formal environment. Never apologise for something you didn't do.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

I think that falls under the accused not actually understanding their actions and the hurt they caused? This isn’t the gotcha you think it is.


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You can understand the hurt you caused, but unless you've been through it, you'll never understand how certain actions hurt others.
That's where this will fall over, they can apologise, learn that the action is hurtful, but they'll never understand WHY it is hurtful - but the accusers want them to understand why

 

[Kwality]

I’ve seriously seen Eddie Betts one many occasions always talk about how indigenous players don’t want to speak up because they want punishment. They speak up because they just want it to change. So many people simply refuse to accept that maybe indigenous people don’t want revenge but just want to be heard and for changes to be made. Always painted as being unreasonable or selfish and it being unnecessary that they have to speak out so loudly.

I share your commentary around Eddie Betts .

Crowds these days are not tolerant of the sort of rubbish that was ignored in earlier times.
Fans arent prepared to put up with it & we all need to prepared to do that wherever we hear it.
That wont stop the odd drop kick running off at the mouth & that includes players trying to get under the skin of their opposition (as acknowledged by the likes of Gary Lyon & Tony Shaw to their credit}.

At some point the AFL need to review where the General Manager of Inclusion and Social Policy at the AFL has been in this issue. Perhaps I missed it, but the silence is deafening.

 

[threesixpio]

Happy for my club to get hit with whatever punishment is justifiable. Love Cyril

BUT

If Fagan, Burt and Clarko walk away unscathed it will be a bit farked

 

[Black Panther]

New statement released from Burt says the complainants did ask for compensation payments contradicting their statement from yesterday

 

[Devington]

New statement released from Burt says the complainants did ask for compensation payments contradicting their statement from yesterday

FWIW The AFL deal was going to originally include millions from Hawthorn, who then backed out.

 

[mighty_lions]

Even if you know and come to understand that what you did was wrong and caused hurt?

I hope you don’t have children.

Another pathetic comment from a “moderator”


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[AceAndy]

New statement released from Burt says the complainants did ask for compensation payments contradicting their statement from yesterday

Did the review have a recommendation of payments/compensation being made to the players interviewed?

 

[The Gulden Child]

It's rather pathetic how people keep trying to pretend that's what Cyril's involvement boils down to.

Enlighten me instead of being a prick. I gave plenty of examples re Hawthorn supporting Cyril.

 

[buttermuffs]

I just hope they don't apologise until found guilty in a formal environment. Never apologise for something you didn't do.

Well it sounds like they did some of the things re: Burt admitting to one of the events involving all three occurring. I feel like you’re conflating apologising for hurting someone for admitting that you did something because it was racist and you had racist intentions.

Shouldn’t you hope for reconciliation between the parties where an understanding is reached? It feels like you prefer the most difficult path to resolution. That because they said they did absolutely nothing wrong, they should go down kicking and screaming instead of possibly reconciling that their good intentions may have led to a poor outcome.

 

[The Gulden Child]

At best this is cultural insensitivity, surely. There is not, hate or malice in any of the actions mentioned in the letter.

Projects? Seriously, Irish players are regarded as project players. Rookie pick 200 is generally a project player. Rugby players and those with basketball backgrounds are labelled, project players. Mason Cox. Since when does this suddenly have a racial connotation to it? What am I missing? They were given a chance to live their dream. Miller-Lewis had a high profile platform to promote his art work?

As for Cyril! Adored by 90,000+ fans. Given regular leave to meet his cultural/personal needs. Pre-season training camps were held in the NT allowing him extra opportunities to be home. A Tiwi dinner held at the club to celebrate his heritage (Turtle brought over if I recollect correctly). He has his knickers in a twist a over a 'dad joke' about torn jeans?

As an outsider looking in (at least publicly) Hawthorn looked to be nailing their indigenous program.

None of this passes the eye test.

Amazing that this got deleted from Hawthorn board. Obviously they must know every single detail about Indigenous culture and would never make a mistake regarding, any culture for that matter, that they are unfamiliar with. The degree of righteousness is really admirable.

 

[buttermuffs]

You can understand the hurt you caused, but unless you've been through it, you'll never understand how certain actions hurt others.
That's where this will fall over, they can apologise, learn that the action is hurtful, but they'll never understand WHY it is hurtful - but the accusers want them to understand why

I feel that remains to be seen. It’s semantics, but i feel like they could know why it’s hurtful but they could never actually understand what it feels like and why.

I don’t think most white people would ever be able to fully ever understand it, but I don’t think you have to fully understand why, you just have to believe them when they say why it hurts.

It’s difficult, and I don’t think the accusers are expecting them to automatically become 100% understanding, because that’s not really ever fully possible.


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[freddy mercury]

Well it sounds like they did some of the things re: Burt admitting to one of the events involving all three occurring. I feel like you’re conflating apologising for hurting someone for admitting that you did something because it was racist and you had racist intentions.

Shouldn’t you hope for reconciliation between the parties where an understanding is reached? It feels like you prefer the most difficult path to resolution. That because they said they did absolutely nothing wrong, they should go down kicking and screaming instead of possibly reconciling that their good intentions may have led to a poor outcome.

I do, you just feel that neither side will ever be satisfied.

 

[Kwality]

Happy for my club to get hit with whatever punishment is justifiable. Love Cyril

BUT

If Fagan, Burt and Clarko walk away unscathed it will be a bit farked

Why did you find Fagan, Burt & Clarko guilty?

 

[peetoo]

It looks to be textbook racism if it's all true. Certain players were singled out and treated differently because of the colour of their skin.

I reckon it was, but in a way paternalistically applied. Well,intentioned but failing significantly.the hawks wanted to break from the pre bateman era, but there was clear clumsiness and misdirected ‘help’

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Why did you find Fagan, Burt & Clarko guilty?

If Hawthorn is guilty, the accused are guilty

 

[peetoo]

Hard to do that when you only employ your indigenous liaison officer one day a week. Absolute shocker.


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Plenty of specialists work less than full time. It was not involving a welfare officer in actual welfare was the over reach

 

[buttermuffs]

Happy for my club to get hit with whatever punishment is justifiable. Love Cyril

BUT

If Fagan, Burt and Clarko walk away unscathed it will be a bit farked

I feel like with some other stories like Mitchell there’s every chance it could come to the resolution of being insensitive rather than fully racist. However, I still feel like their accused actions were a gross overreach of their position and shouldn’t be accepted. On top of everything, I’d love to see some greater education for players and possibly also the coaches about what is and isn’t acceptable to be asked from you from your superiors (workplace wise, not race wise).

The club and their staff need to realise the effect of power dynamics in the relationships they have with players, as simple advice from a position of power always can be interpreted as implicit demands and suggested actions. I get that some players and some coaches are close but the coaches should always know when to step back and say ‘I can’t give you my advice or opinion’.

In addition to this, players need to be aware of what is and isn’t acceptable and when someone is possibly abusing their position of power against them. It shouldn’t take the players half a decade to come to the conclusion that having coaches coming to your house to help break up with your partner is not acceptable, or that a coach should ever be bringing up the possibility of abortion.

Even in the WNBA, a coach was suspended due to suggesting a player wasn’t showing enough commitment when they decided to take an unplanned second pregnancy to term. It is not acceptable workplace behaviour and I’m sick of hearing ‘but football requires sacrifices’.

 

[buttermuffs]

New statement released from Burt says the complainants did ask for compensation payments contradicting their statement from yesterday

Can we normalise linking this stuff. I can’t find a single article right now not locked behind a paywall.


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[buttermuffs]

Plenty of specialists work less than full time. It was not involving a welfare officer in actual welfare was the over reach

Yes but players like Shaun and Cyril wanted Leon Egan to be full time. It’s clear that it was needed and should have been a full time position regardless of how ‘specialist’ it may have been.


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