Jonathan Hay - The next silvagni ???

[Portia]

Could've sworn all of my posts have been about them. Maybe you should try reading them.

 

[Worm4]

Originally posted by Porthos
Could've sworn all of my posts have been about them. Maybe you should try reading them.

You said , and I quote, there are many, many reasons ...blah blah

Form what I have read, you state for the record that Silvagni was named FB of the Century for the following reasons :

a) "the commentators talked him up". This usually occurs when Silvagni beat his player most of the time. comprende ?

b) "fullback is the one position where no great players have played in " - Ever heard of Dench and Southby ? Did you ever see them play the game ? Be honest. We are talking about players of great quality here. In all the games that I have seen, David Dench was by far the best opposition Fullback. Geoff Southby on his day, could beat any FF. He kept Peter Hudson goalless in an year where Hudson kicked 150 goals in a season. I think we can all agree that Peter Hudson was a great FF. Interesting to note that both Dench and Southby started as full forwards. So did Silvagni.

c) " theres no stats to judge fullbacks , so the judges pick the player with the biggest rep" - bollocks. The 3 players mentioned had HUGE reputations. Ask anyone who follows the game passionately.

d) "what other fullback's peaked at a time where selectors could see every game ?" - None of them were near Silvagni in the fullback role because his standards extremely high. Ask any of the fullforwards of this great era ( Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett ) and they all come back to SIlvagni as thier toughest opponent - FACT. I think these types are the best judges. Not a couch potatoe such as yourself.

The defence rests.

 

[hawkstaf]

After lengthy considerations......

After lengthy consideration from reading your opinions on what i had to say reguarding Jonathan Hay and his ability to gain stature as high as the full back of the century - S.Silvagni.

Dustin Fletcher and Darren Gasper are both quality defenders there is no point in saying there not coz it would be a lie. but do they contain the qualities and essentials required for a top class defender? - almost. Jonathan Hay does.

J.H is explosively fast, aggressive, tall, agile and has a high skill level. He is not afraid to take oppostion on most times and has the ability to contain small explosive fowards (farmer, cockatoo collins) AND larger more targeted spear head fowards(lloyd and lockett). Ironically i have only ever seen Hay 'lose' to 2 fowards - one was the greatest goal kicker of all time - Lockett and the otehr was the full back of the century - Stephen Silvagni. - which was in 2001. - SOS is gone - Lockett is playing a cameo role this year so i dont see why J.H. cannot sky rocket in status to become a great full back over the next 3 or 4 years. Good Luck Jon.

 

[blues^rock]

hmm well i dunno about the next silvagni... i think he's a good defendder who will continue to improve but i don't really think he will be the next silvagni... i don't really ever like to say he will be the next so-and-so becaus ethere is no next (unless it's their son )
anyway yeah tats just my opinion...

 

[windyhill]

The next silvagni ? Does this mean we have to put up with Hay being on the front page of the Herald Sun through out winter with cheesy photos of he and his family ?

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Worm4


You said , and I quote, there are many, many reasons ...blah blah

Form what I have read, you state for the record that Silvagni was named FB of the Century for the following reasons :

a) "the commentators talked him up". This usually occurs when Silvagni beat his player most of the time. comprende ?

Or even when he broke even. In defence, even a partial defeat can be a `good game'. Hey, he held Lloyd to 2 goals! Good game, Martyn/Silvagni/McIntosh!

b) "fullback is the one position where no great players have played in " - Ever heard of Dench and Southby ? Did you ever see them play the game ? Be honest. We are talking about players of great quality here. In all the games that I have seen, David Dench was by far the best opposition Fullback. Geoff Southby on his day, could beat any FF. He kept Peter Hudson goalless in an year where Hudson kicked 150 goals in a season. I think we can all agree that Peter Hudson was a great FF. Interesting to note that both Dench and Southby started as full forwards. So did Silvagni.

If only he played on Hudson every week, we could see how good he was.

This is the important part....there are no objective stats for defenders, so what commentators say is all.

c) " theres no stats to judge fullbacks , so the judges pick the player with the biggest rep" - bollocks. The 3 players mentioned had HUGE reputations. Ask anyone who follows the game passionately.

Great. So how did they make the decision then? What did they base it on? Is it really bollocks that there's no stats?

d) "what other fullback's peaked at a time where selectors could see every game ?" - None of them were near Silvagni in the fullback role because his standards extremely high. Ask any of the fullforwards of this great era ( Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett ) and they all come back to SIlvagni as thier toughest opponent - FACT. I think these types are the best judges. Not a couch potatoe such as yourself.

I imagine the toughest part is that he'd never get freekicked for hanging on to your guernsey or shoving you in the back.

Why are there so many people saying that their arguments are fact? They're not, and if you're just here to browbeat, you might as well go home.

The defence rests.

The offence scores.

 

[elt]

Originally posted by Porthos
Why are there so many people saying that their arguments are fact? They're not, and if you're just here to browbeat, you might as well go home.

Surely far too sensible an opinion for BigFooty. Bluey!

Originally posted by Porthos
The offence scores.

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

Originally posted by Worm4
Ask any of the fullforwards of this great era ( Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett ) and they all come back to SIlvagni as thier toughest opponent - FACT.

Ablett has categorically stated that Chris Langford was his hardest opponent. It was on a Footy Show Grand Final Preview before the show went to the dogs back around 1995-6.

Slimy, it's one thing to state your opinion as FACT (Gawd knows you're not Robinson Crusoe around here on that score), but quite another to misrepresent someone else and then claim it as fact.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Simon_Nesbit
I've yet to see Fletcher play well on a small or medium defender.

I've yet to see Fletcher play on a small or medium defender.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Thankyou Dave.

One of my major points exactly.

Ok then, perhaps I should rephrase.

Jon Hay is THE best full-back currently in the competition. (Although with his talents would be better suited to CHB in my opinion).

Fletcher is a close second, although I believe injuries held him back (like they did JH this year).

Gaspar needs to work on his skills, but is a good stopper.

The rest? well...big respect for Leppitsch (sp?) but injuries seem to take their toll, Martyn, just a thug, Barry Hall (your joking right?), Andrew Dunkley, (see Gaspar, getting past it now, but in his day was brilliant stopper), McIntosh (see dunkley).

Those are all i can think of at present, and yes I know that they are mainly the 'name' players, (but that's probably why!)

 

[Portia]

Stephen Paxman is pretty underrated. Collingwood fans would say Prestigiacomo also is.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Simon_Nesbit
Thankyou Dave.

One of my major points exactly.

Miss the irony did we? Oh well.

Jon Hay is THE best full-back currently in the competition. (Although with his talents would be better suited to CHB in my opinion).

On this years form perhaps. I'd certainly be happy to have him in my team, though I'd be interested to see him stand Lloyd or a fit Hird.

Gaspar needs to work on his skills, but is a good stopper.

The Gas is pretty good though from what I've seen he's more of a CHB.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Porthos
Stephen Paxman is pretty underrated.

Good stopper but not quite in the same class as Hay/Fletcher/Silvagni IMO. He's similar to Gaspar, capable of holding a gun forward from a match winning effort but not shutting them out completely.

Collingwood fans would say Prestigiacomo also is.

They would. No-one else would. He's a good ordinary player to pinch a phrase from a living legend.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Dave
Good stopper but not quite in the same class as Hay/Fletcher/Silvagni IMO. He's similar to Gaspar, capable of holding a gun forward from a match winning effort but not shutting them out completely.

I agree. Definitely rates with Dunkley, Hall(?) and Leppitsch though, I'd reckon.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Porthos
I agree. Definitely rates with Dunkley, Hall(?) and Leppitsch though, I'd reckon.

Yeah I'd agree with that, though Leppitsch when fit (if he ever is, hammy's can be soo dodgy) might be just above them.

 

[Worm4]

Originally posted by Porthos
Or even when he broke even. In defence, even a partial defeat can be a `good game'. Hey, he held Lloyd to 2 goals! Good game, Martyn/Silvagni/McIntosh!

If only he played on Hudson every week, we could see how good he was.

This is the important part....there are no objective stats for defenders, so what commentators say is all.

Great. So how did they make the decision then? What did they base it on? Is it really bollocks that there's no stats?

I imagine the toughest part is that he'd never get freekicked for hanging on to your guernsey or shoving you in the back.

Why are there so many people saying that their arguments are fact? They're not, and if you're just here to browbeat, you might as well go home.

The offence scores.

This is not a factual argument. I have heard Dunstall/Lockett actually specify on Sport 927 that their toughest opponent WAS Silvagni. You obviously don't get 927 as you are in Sydney. I'm sure others on this board can attest to it.

Just on the stats thing, are you aware how the full back of the century was judged. How do you know that statistics weren't brought into the discussion roon ? Were you there ? Are you on the panel ?

Do you think it is really hard for statisticians to mark down how many goals were kicked on individual players ? I don't think so ! Would this information be critical when judging this position ? Do you still think that Greg Philips should have got the gig ?

I'm still waiting on your other options for this position. You have been extremely judgemental without giving options - typical of the normal Big Footy. com poster I gather.

 

[Chris_23]

Originally posted by Dave
On this years form perhaps. I'd certainly be happy to have him in my team, though I'd be interested to see him stand Lloyd or a fit Hird.

Lloyd and Hay have played against each other 3 times.

1998 Waverley - Lloyd kicked 4, it was a pretty even battle. It was the same day as Blumfield's *Cough* goal.

Even.

1999 Waverley - Lloyd kicked 5.5 from memory. Hay played a good game (he was named our best player if my memory serves me correctly) but he didn't stand a chance because we got flogged.

Advantage Lloyd.

2000 MCG - Lloyd kicked 4 goals but IMHO Hay beat him fair and square. Lloyd kicked 2 or 3 goals in the 3rd qtr from poor Hawthorn kickouts. I can't remember feeling as pissed off about an opponent getting goals as i did that day. Hay worked his arse off for no real reward. Still, it shows the class of Lloyd to still finish up with 4 when (IMHO) he was clearly beaten for three quarters.

Advantage Hay.

Lloyd kicked a bag of 6 (or was it more?) in 2000 and 8 last year. Jon Hay didn't play in either game. Next year will be interesting, hopefully both guys will play so we can get a good guide. I'm confident that Hay can hold his own.

Hay vs Hird is an interesting one. Again i'd be confident of Hay doing well. Knowone knows how fit Hird was in the prelim this year. He was obviously beaten but he didn't look at all fit. I doubt these two will match up again, Hay will always go to Lloyd if he's playing.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Chris_23
Lloyd and Hay have played against each other 3 times.

Yeah I know, but the last two years have been when they've absolutely stood out and I didn't see the 2000 game due to club footy.

1998 Waverley - Lloyd kicked 4, it was a pretty even battle. It was the same day as Blumfield's *Cough* goal.

Even.

My birthday! Harford climbing the post was a pisser. We'd have won by a point anyway so all the fuss afterwards was hilarious. One of the "afternoon experiments". Lloyd kicked two btw. I'd give that one to Hay.

1999 Waverley - Lloyd kicked 5.5 from memory. Hay played a good game (he was named our best player if my memory serves me correctly) but he didn't stand a chance because we got flogged.

Advantage Lloyd.

My sons first game @ 6mths old. Was spooked by all the noise to start with but by the end was having a ball. Nearly started a family war given my wife barracks for your mob. "Go Bombers" were his third and fourth words (after Dad & Mum)

2000 MCG - Lloyd kicked 4 goals but IMHO Hay beat him fair and square. Lloyd kicked 2 or 3 goals in the 3rd qtr from poor Hawthorn kickouts. I can't remember feeling as pissed off about an opponent getting goals as i did that day. Hay worked his arse off for no real reward. Still, it shows the class of Lloyd to still finish up with 4 when (IMHO) he was clearly beaten for three quarters.

Advantage Hay.

I'd call than one even

Lloyd kicked a bag of 6 (or was it more?) in 2000

5

and 8 last year. Jon Hay didn't play in either game. Next year will be interesting, hopefully both guys will play so we can get a good guide. I'm confident that Hay can hold his own.

I think it'll come down to who's on top in the middle, which is usually the only way to restrict a good full forward. The only times I was ever confident of holding Dunstall was when I thought our midfield was going to win.

Hay vs Hird is an interesting one. Again i'd be confident of Hay doing well. Knowone knows how fit Hird was in the prelim this year. He was obviously beaten but he didn't look at all fit.

Well beaten and nowhere near fit, regardless of what he had to say afterwards. Still if you run out onto the park.....

I doubt these two will match up again, Hay will always go to Lloyd if he's playing.

Agreed.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
Ablett has categorically stated that Chris Langford was his hardest opponent. It was on a Footy Show Grand Final Preview before the show went to the dogs back around 1995-6.

Besides that Steve Kernahan rated Chris Langford as his toughest opponent too (obviously he never played against SOS). I think that Langford was your classic fullback whereas SOS had more flair and did the improbable more often. Part of Silvagni's appeal was that he was an unlikely looking footballer. Seemingly too lightly built to take on powerful forwards, a unusual running style, not a high skill level and contrary to many opinions that say he was lucky, he had more heart than anyone to overcome all that. A more professional attitude would be hard to find.

 

[Chris_23]

Originally posted by Dave
My birthday! Harford climbing the post was a pisser. We'd have won by a point anyway so all the fuss afterwards was hilarious. One of the "afternoon experiments". Lloyd kicked two btw. I'd give that one to Hay.

Yeah, i must admit i was rather annoyed at the goal umpire. I know the Dons still would've won by a point but who's to say we wouldn't have taken it the length of the field and scored. Dunstall could've got his 10th for the day/evening. Lloyd only got two? "eeeeexcellent".

Originally posted by Dave
My sons first game @ 6mths old. Was spooked by all the noise to start with but by the end was having a ball. Nearly started a family war given my wife barracks for your mob. "Go Bombers" were his third and fourth words (after Dad & Mum)

Go Bombers? Sure he wasn't saying "No Bombers!"?

Originally posted by Dave
I think it'll come down to who's on top in the middle, which is usually the only way to restrict a good full forward. The only times I was ever confident of holding Dunstall was when I thought our midfield was going to win.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. There are only ever going to be 5-10 one on one duels per match. The Bombers midfield has been so dominant over us in recent years, there isn't much our defenders can do. Thats why i'm so adamant that Hay beat Lloyd in 2000.

 

[Rohan_]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Besides that Steve Kernahan rated Chris Langford as his toughest opponent too (obviously he never played against SOS). I think that Langford was your classic fullback whereas SOS had more flair and did the improbable more often. Part of Silvagni's appeal was that he was an unlikely looking footballer. Seemingly too lightly built to take on powerful forwards, a unusual running style, not a high skill level and contrary to many opinions that say he was lucky, he had more heart than anyone to overcome all that. A more professional attitude would be hard to find.

There was not much difference between the strength of Langford and SOS. Langford looked bigger but he had more definition than SOS.

SOS was just as big and strong as Langford. I doubt he is light as you say and he was bigger than most full forwards he played on.

The best full back of the 80's was Gary Pert.

 

[hawks-chick28]

Hay is a brilliant defender and he can be every bit as good as silvagni!

Hays career is really only just beginning and look what he is already, he can play on any type of forward whether it be, small, medium or tall, he is fast, has good skill and backs himself...

Hay has everything that a backman needs and i have no doubt he will be the best backman to have ever played the game...

Though there are some other good defenders in fletcher and gaspar, they will always be second and third to hay!

 

[Worm4]

Originally posted by Rohan_


There was not much difference between the strength of Langford and SOS. Langford looked bigger but he had more definition than SOS.

SOS was just as big and strong as Langford. I doubt he is light as you say and he was bigger than most full forwards he played on.

The best full back of the 80's was Gary Pert.

.

WOuld be fair to say that Langford was the second best fullback behing Silvagni. Silvagni ran off his player more than Langford, but Langford was better in the goalsquare. Pert gave away a lot of freekicks similar to Silvagni, but just got caught more often.

Funny thing is, when I think of Langford, I think of Capper. When I think of Silvagni, I think of Starcevich, and when I think of Pert, I think of Ablett. All three ripper marks.

 

[Korn]

You know what's so good about SOS? He bloody dives for a mark or to stop a goal (during his early days), that's how hard he works!
I have never seen anyone dives for the ball so much~

 

[Port01]

Originally posted by Korn
You know what's so good about SOS? He bloody dives for a mark or to stop a goal (during his early days), that's how hard he works!
I have never seen anyone dives for the ball so much~

not even Lloyd? or are they just dives....

(saving essendon supporters the trouble)