Josh Fraser & the great ruck debate

[danielnajdek]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Yeah but he still gives away too many stupid soft free kicks. If he's getting pinged for that then stop doing the same thing week in week out.

 

[YouIdiot]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

He is such a neanderthal... but having heard his rant re the NRL signings, I am not surprised he would use such an excuse.

The free kicks he gives away could hardly be classified as being a result of physicality! He breaks rules that have been in place since the first football was kicked in anger. Rules that are plain to see. You cannot wrap your arms around your opponent when caught behind and fling him to the side, and this isn't anything new.

I am on the cusp of all out hating this bloke. And I was so optimistic!

I am yet to watch on the couch, missed it earlier, have to wait to record the midnight screening. I have a bad feeling I am going to be left with some bitter words for old sooky Jolly...

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I've had it with Fraser. If we need a tall flanker... well there are tall flankers for that.

Fraser out, Dawes in, and L Brown to second ruckman. People say that Brown brings a genuine contest, well ruck is where it's needed.

 

[Axl the great]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I've had it with Fraser. If we need a tall flanker... well there are tall flankers for that.

Fraser out, Dawes in, and L Brown to second ruckman. People say that Brown brings a genuine contest, well ruck is where it's needed.

Agreed, i can handle guys not having great games if they at least have a real crack, at least Leroy has a bloody go!
Question? If Chris Bryan was still on the list and Fraser was not, and Bryan had played all Frasers games who would we have got more value out of?
That is putting things in perspective of how useless Fraser has been so far because i would put all my money on Bryan!

 

[DaisysHair]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Both Fraser and wood can **** themselves off to the reserves until one of them can grow a set of testicles.

I've often defended Josh, but he played a ****en inept, soft **** game today and sadly wood hasn't been any better this year.

So Dawes and Leroy alternate second ruck and forward, while ourrucking brothers of ******** can htfu in the seconds

Bang.

Leroy has limited ability, but has massive plums. Josh and Cam can enjoy the VFL til they get a set. Even Dicky has bigger plums than those toothpicks. Playing 2 games in 2 days that's immense.

 

[PiEs_In_ThE_SkY!!! JA PM]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Why would they play Dawes in the ruck? Has had a knee reconstruction in the past and look at Bailey i think it is for Hawthorn. Three times in his career. Cant afford to risk Dawes in the ruck!

Why he isnt getting a game up forward makes little sense to me. Throw Jack at FF for **** sake, not L Brown. Let him be the 2nd ruckmen!

 

[morgoth]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

The game against Sydney would be Josh's 200th game.

I would sack him during the bye and make it crystal clear to the playing group that we will not accept efforts like this anymore. We are not here to gift you 200 games, you earn them or you get lost. And I would be looking right at Leon as I said it.

But this is Collingwood, weak as piss when it comes to making hard calls and as a result we produce weak as piss players.

The only defence of Josh is that his body is shot but the club should have made the call during pre-season.

 

[mdc]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Why would they play Dawes in the ruck? Has had a knee reconstruction in the past and look at Bailey i think it is for Hawthorn. Three times in his career. Cant afford to risk Dawes in the ruck!

Played 3 games as back-up ruck last year, and was very competitive.

 

[cobbly]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

I find it hard to blame fraser alone for that jamar mark, yes he should have been with him, but what I saw was 3, possibly 4, collingwood defenders around the drop of the ball who just stood there. They didn't have the guts to leave their own man and attack the ball.

All I could think at that moment was, geez i wish maxwell was on the ground. Theres no way in hell jamar would have marked that ball, with or without frasers presence, if maxwell was down there. It would have been punched away, probably straight over the boundary line. It was a high kick that should have been easily killed, if just one of those players was less selfish.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Just a quick memo to everyone in this thread.

You won't see drastic changes to the list until 2012. You all now why. Bottle it up boys and girls, it's going to be a LOOOOOONG year and half.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[mattys123]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

I find it hard to blame fraser alone for that jamar mark, yes he should have been with him, but what I saw was 3, possibly 4, collingwood defenders around the drop of the ball who just stood there. They didn't have the guts to leave their own man and attack the ball.

All I could think at that moment was, geez i wish maxwell was on the ground.

Actually , if you watch the replay, the only 2 "tall defenders" in the area were Reid and Presti, and Presti was 10 metres away after his opponent made a lead, and Reid was being sheparded by Miller, almost to the point of a free.

I agree on the Maxwell point though, he would have got to the contest, but would he have been able to spoil the ruckman, unlikely.

Terrible effort by Josh, and MM reacted straight away, taking him off.

He was 40 metres away, and was ball watching instead of worrying about his direct opponent.

 

[beez]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Josh


...but **** off

 

[DWil6]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Actually , if you watch the replay, the only 2 "tall defenders" in the area were Reid and Presti, and Presti was 10 metres away after his opponent made a lead, and Reid was being sheparded by Miller, almost to the point of a free.

Agree with the Ben Reid call. After the mark he had his arms out claiming the free. On replay they were both wrestling to get the best position for the drop, but I think once Miller realised Jamar was there he held him out. Could have easily been a free but they both held in the initial instance.

 

[cobbly]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Actually , if you watch the replay, the only 2 "tall defenders" in the area were Reid and Presti, and Presti was 10 metres away after his opponent made a lead, and Reid was being sheparded by Miller, almost to the point of a free.

I agree on the Maxwell point though, he would have got to the contest, but would he have been able to spoil the ruckman, unlikely.

Terrible effort by Josh, and MM reacted straight away, taking him off.

He was 40 metres away, and was ball watching instead of worrying about his direct opponent.

Tall or not, they can all jump and punch or at the very least provide some sort of contest, none of them did. Presti was out of it i know, and i saw reid and miller wrestling, think it is kind to reid to say he was held out. But there were at least 2 others there, think one was heater, cant remember the other, possibly toovey. Regardless it was a pathetic effort from the group of them, and they all dropped their heads afterwards as well they should have.


I'm sure max would have been able to spoil. Jamar didnt do anything special, he took a very simple uncontested mark. even if max didnt completly kill it, would have atleast made jamar have to take a good mark.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Im a Josh defender on these boards, have been for ages, and not going to bother defending him today.

He was poor....he seems to have lost a yard of pace, and offers little around the ground, which was previously his big strength.

Jamar rubs his hands together when he sees the pies, as he knows he is up against two rucks who are both easily physically intimidated.

Problem is that Wood aint good enough atm either.

Perhaps time to put a rocket up Jolly, let him ruck on his own against Sydney and hopefully work himself into some form.

 

[absy]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Day after I still think he needs to **** off

 

[morgoth]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Tall or not, they can all jump and punch or at the very least provide some sort of contest, none of them did. Presti was out of it i know, and i saw reid and miller wrestling, think it is kind to reid to say he was held out. But there were at least 2 others there, think one was heater, cant remember the other, possibly toovey. Regardless it was a pathetic effort from the group of them, and they all dropped their heads afterwards as well they should have.


I'm sure max would have been able to spoil. Jamar didnt do anything special, he took a very simple uncontested mark. even if max didnt completly kill it, would have atleast made jamar have to take a good mark.

How about Josh just mans up? His fault and his alone. It's why his team mates made him stand the mark and why Mick dragged him.

Been over him for years, can't believe people still think he will 'come good'. Name one game you remember where Josh played a blinder.

 

[Art Corvelay]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Name one game you remember where Josh played a blinder.

For the Vics in the State of Original special, where he hurt his knee. Wasn't even for the Pies

 

[Invigoration]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

It's like clockwork though, a large part of the posters criticising him in here were the same ones calling for him to be rushed back into the side a week or two ago.

As Zahki said like 4 posts into the thread, in two weeks, people will forget how woeful he has been for the last year and a half, and call for him to be an inclusion again.

Wood played two pretty decent games as a backup ruckman and 2 at the Josh Fraser level of shitness, but people wanted him replaced for Fraser expecting that somehow that'd be a better result.

We need to plonk Wood in the ones and persevere with him for the rest of the year, it's the only way we are any chance of ever progressing in the ruck area. If we continue to just chop and change and eventually end up going into finals with an insipid Josh Fraser, we'll see the exact same result as we have the last few years in finals.
At least if we get games and experience in to those second tier players (Wood, Dawes, Caff etc) we are some chance of bridging the gap between the Cats. But if we are content to go with the blokes that have no chance of improvement, then we'll just end up seeing a repeat of last year.
Angus Graham is a good example of a young ruck who just benefited from being played at the top level. He consistently underperformed at VFL level (as a lot of rucks do), but once he got brought up and given the opportunity, he seems to have just thrived. Although we are in a different space than Richmond at the moment, we shouldn't be far off making a similar call. Fraser (Simmonds) should be told he is going to struggle for games here on out, and Wood (Graham) needs to be informed that he has the rest of the year to show his wares or he might find himself out of the job.

I think Wood (and even Fraser for that matter) really struggles as the backup ruckman, and I personally never thought it was the wisest decision to go after Jolly considering what we had already spent on Wood.
I would have been much more enthused to see us chase a young developing ruckman who didn't automatically relegate Wood to second/third string such as a Mumford or a Sam Jacobs. It would have left us with two young, promising ruckmen who could come up through the grades together and push each other equally for the rights to the number 1 ruck role each week. At least that way there'd be the allure of getting the number 1 ruck role, as it stands at the moment, Wood can play a stellar game, get brought up and be assured about 35-40% ruck time at the most. I could see how that would be deflating.

Jolly has been average, he cost too much and although he obviously isn't solely responsible, I think he'll end up costing us Wood as well, all for maybe 3/4 years of service. Now I say that while realising Wood needs to pull his finger out and make his own destiny, but I thought Wood came on in leaps and bounds last year as the lone ruckman, I thought he showed he could clearly cut it at the level. It seems we went with a short term solution instead of being patient with his development, something that will ultimately bite us in the arse imo.

I can see it being very likely that we are not only going to finish this year with Fraser as the number 2 ruckman, but also go into next year with him being virtually the only choice for the back up role with Wood having gone to play somewhere else.
A ruck contingent of Jolly, Fraser and Leroy doesn't inspire me much tbh.

 

[Optimax]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Invig neither wood nor fraser deserves games, it is that simple

Jolly hasnt been great agreed, but without him and watching wood and fraser in 2010 we'd be ****ed without him.

 

[Art Corvelay]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

It seems we went with a short term solution instead of being patient with his development, something that will ultimately bite us in the arse imo.

Rock and a hard place for Mick here though. Supporters have been screaming about getting a ruckmen in for years, and now he finally as, and people are upset about that as well. Let's fact it; Mick wants a flag this year or next, and I don't think long term development is on his mind. Was mentioned on the radio we are the only team this year not to field a debutant.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Fraser - you are a disgrace

Rock and a hard place for Mick here though. Supporters have been screaming about getting a ruckmen in for years, and now he finally as, and people are upset about that as well. Let's fact it; Mick wants a flag this year or next, and I don't think long term development is on his mind. Was mentioned on the radio we are the only team this year not to field a debutant.

Its not as if we have not been giving younger blokes a go in important spots.

Dawes given a solid run at FF.
Reid is now holding down CHB.

If those two can hold them down moving forward, much better than introducing a small run of the mill half forward.

 

[sunnyTEE]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

He can take our ruck coach with him.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

It's a good post Invig. In general I think players should have to compete for spots in our side based on form - especially this close to the top - rather than getting games into them.

But on the question of rucks, its a bit different. We know Josh this year is on par with Wood, and therefore it might be worth erring toward playing Wood into some form.

I'm a bit nervous about throwing Dawes into the ruck and smashing his knee into opposition knees or landing hard on Gabba wickets. Leroy is a stop-gap as well. Perhaps we just need to roll the dice with Wood as I don't think he offers much less than Leroy now and potentially a lot more. We know what we'll get with Fraser and Leroy, we need to know what we might get out of Wood.

The services of a ruckman will be sought by Hawthorn and Port at the end of year, and I think we'd be well served keeping Wood on the list. If Jolly gets injured we will be absolutely screwed.

 

[notorious_zhang]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Invig neither wood nor fraser deserves games, it is that simple

Jolly hasnt been great agreed, but without him and watching wood and fraser in 2010 we'd be ****ed without him.

I don't think we can afford not playing Wood. We are going to need a 2nd ruckman, Jolly can not do it by himself. Playing Wood will speed up his development and stringing games together will boost his confidence, and hopefully he will start producing some form come finals.