Autopsy Lions prevail by 10

[The_Koulouriotis_Fan]

At a certain point you have to accept your identity as a footy club. Geelong's identity is to be the bridesmaid, the challenger but rarely the champion. Perhaps a better way to label it is "the Gatekeper" - we're the sides other sides have to get to in order to get a shot at success, like a second-to-final boss in a video game. It's long been part of our history now. A strong, competitive club that does not accept mediocrity but at the same time struggles to consistently get over the line when the opportunity presents. All those missed chances in the 90s. We get three flags with an incredibly talented side (though could have had more), and then in the 2010s revert to the same as decades prior. Constantly close to the prize but rarely grasping it, in this case struggling to even get to the final day as we had in the 90s.

It's not a bad identity. It's certainly better than many others in the league hold. It sort of complements Hawthorn's, which is to take silverware from the slimmest of chances. They seem to find the most opportune times to strike and do it.

I think we really need to resign ourselves to it. We're a strong club. We do a lot very well. There is a lot for us to enjoy. But while we may be strong, we're rarely premiership-caliber strong, or even grand final strong.

We're a B+ player, the Triple H of footy, and that's not a bad spot to be in. We're close to the top but really there to make the true top look good.

Rubbish, too many fans have tunnel vision when viewing our team. Since I started watching footy the Cats have been a perennial contender, which means the byproduct is that other teams almost always have to overcome us to win a flag. It's a badge of honour to wear.

Clubs don't just win flags all the time. We won 0 between 63 and 07 and have won 4 between 07 and 24, it's an insane record!

Since 1990 only the Hawks have won more flags - 5 to our 4 and they could argue they should've won at least 2 more. Pies have won 3 and would argue they could've won 4 more, Swans 2 at least 3 more , Tigers 3 - 1 more, Lions 3 - 2 more. With our amount of top 4 finishes, yes we could've snuck another couple of flags, 08, 13, 16, 19, 20 & 24 in particular, but in 5 of those years there has been arguably better teams right in their premiership window. 13 we were on our last legs and injury riddled, 16 we were flaky and Swans had our measure, 19 & 20 Richmond were a dynasty side and this year Lions are right in the pocket and lost a flag by under a goal a year prior.

Since 2004 we are an A+ team and there is no arguing against it.

 

[Seeds]

Yep, and it's great to see.

But I reckon they'll be a force next year.

The addition of Brass and Battle, plus the return of Day and Lewis will make them good across the ground imo.

And they can join us who are a force every year.

 

[Cataholic]

And they can join us who are a force every year.

Yeah, but I'd rather see them wallow in the mud

 

[goyoucatters]

Yeah, but I'd rather see them wallow in the mud

The idea that there's some sort of guarantee that the Hawks are smashing it next year is a little preemptive, I think.

Port completely took away their game for the first half of the S.F. and they really struggled as a result. Got some marginal forward frees to get them back into it by half-time, after being absolutely dominated for a quarter and a half.

I concede their personnel could well be demonstrably better next year. But other teams will go to work on their system and see whether they can negate it just like Port did.

I certainly rate Mitchell as a coach. But we'll actually learn more about how good he is next year than we did in 2024. The scrutiny of their game style is going to ratchet up incredibly and we'll have to wait and see whether they're up to dealing with that.

 

[Commando]

Don’t get me started on boots!
I am not sure if there are many ‘footy’ specific boots out there anymore. Many out there are soccer related and,as you say there may be sponsorship restraints.
I also think that players, maybe under ‘sports science’ advice, chose lower profile stud setups to circumvent foot and lower leg injuries, preferring to slip rather than twist an ankle foot etc. Perhaps our history of foot issues has brought this more to the fore at the club.

I'm a bit of a boot aficionado
Playing footy and soccer

The main problem is the kms and speed AFL players cover
You either get stability and grip or a higher level of comfort
Most prefer comfort

Don't get me started on the artificial materials used now as well

Leather all the way for me

 

[Aaron Reed]

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Rubbish, too many fans have tunnel vision when viewing our team. Since I started watching footy the Cats have been a perennial contender, which means the byproduct is that other teams almost always have to overcome us to win a flag. It's a badge of honour to wear.

Agree with you, and that's what I was saying. That's part of our identity. A strong club that is frequently among the best but rarely the best, more of an obstacle for others to overcome.

Clubs don't just win flags all the time. We won 0 between 63 and 07 and have won 4 between 07 and 24, it's an insane record!

4 flags looks good in isolation. It's better than most clubs.
But in that 07-24 period, we've made the top 8 16 times. Top 4 14 times. Top 2 ten times. We've played in 13 preliminary finals. We've gone on to the GF six times out of all those shots. And you think maybe that's not so bad, a bit less than half of the prelims we've won, but consider that most of those GF appearances were 2007-2011.

Take away those years, and we've gone 2 from 8 in prelims. 5 top 2 finishes, 9 top 4, 11 top 8, and two grand finals. One flag in that time. There has been no side in modern history to have anything like the record we've had in terms of H&A finishes and finals opportunities, but despite all that, we haven't really achieved anything more post-2011 than any other club, and others have achieved much more.

In the same period (or an even smaller period), Richmond finished top 2 one time. They finished top 4 four times. They played in 4 prelims. They made 3 grand finals and won 3 flags.

Hawthorn from 2008-2018 had a good run, but still nowhere near ours: Top 2 four times, top 4 eight times, 6 prelims. They made 5 GFs and won 4 flags. A similar return (albeit in a smaller timeframe), but the efficiency is again much greater. Basically half of the opportunity for the same return.

Which again is not to demean our achievements. We've done a fantastic job to be up and competitive for such a long period of time. But my point is that as a football club we need to come to terms with being a good H&A side, as well as a mature and professional football club, but not one that takes its chances. Outside of 07-11, it's been like that for a long time. Lots of good performances and an entertaining product, but not something that translates to ultimate success as measured by flags.

 

[Seeds]

Rubbish, too many fans have tunnel vision when viewing our team. Since I started watching footy the Cats have been a perennial contender, which means the byproduct is that other teams almost always have to overcome us to win a flag. It's a badge of honour to wear.

Clubs don't just win flags all the time. We won 0 between 63 and 07 and have won 4 between 07 and 24, it's an insane record!

Since 1990 only the Hawks have won more flags - 5 to our 4 and they could argue they should've won at least 2 more. Pies have won 3 and would argue they could've won 4 more, Swans 2 at least 3 more , Tigers 3 - 1 more, Lions 3 - 2 more. With our amount of top 4 finishes, yes we could've snuck another couple of flags, 08, 13, 16, 19, 20 & 24 in particular, but in 5 of those years there has been arguably better teams right in their premiership window. 13 we were on our last legs and injury riddled, 16 we were flaky and Swans had our measure, 19 & 20 Richmond were a dynasty side and this year Lions are right in the pocket and lost a flag by under a goal a year prior.

Since 2004 we are an A+ team and there is no arguing against it.

I dont think he is saying we dont win enough flags compared with other clubs. He is saying we dont win enough flags given how many finals/prelims we make. I.e. we can be exceptional at putting ourselves in a position to win a flag but dont take enough of the opportunities when they are presented. The wording could of been a little better to make this point though as it does sound a little like we take no opportunities which is clearly not true.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Agree with you, and that's what I was saying. That's part of our identity. A strong club that is frequently among the best but rarely the best, more of an obstacle for others to overcome.

4 flags looks good in isolation. It's better than most clubs.
But in that 07-24 period, we've made the top 8 16 times. Top 4 14 times. Top 2 ten times. We've played in 13 preliminary finals. We've gone on to the GF six times out of all those shots. And you think maybe that's not so bad, a bit less than half of the prelims we've won, but consider that most of those GF appearances were 2007-2011.

Take away those years, and we've gone 2 from 8 in prelims. 5 top 2 finishes, 9 top 4, 11 top 8, and two grand finals. One flag in that time. There has been no side in modern history to have anything like the record we've had in terms of H&A finishes and finals opportunities, but despite all that, we haven't really achieved anything more post-2011 than any other club, and others have achieved much more.

In the same period (or an even smaller period), Richmond finished top 2 one time. They finished top 4 four times. They played in 4 prelims. They made 3 grand finals and won 3 flags.

Hawthorn from 2008-2018 had a good run, but still nowhere near ours: Top 2 four times, top 4 eight times, 6 prelims. They made 5 GFs and won 4 flags. A similar return (albeit in a smaller timeframe), but the efficiency is again much greater. Basically half of the opportunity for the same return.

Which again is not to demean our achievements. We've done a fantastic job to be up and competitive for such a long period of time. But my point is that as a football club we need to come to terms with being a good H&A side, as well as a mature and professional football club, but not one that takes its chances. Outside of 07-11, it's been like that for a long time. Lots of good performances and an entertaining product, but not something that translates to ultimate success as measured by flags.

At a quick count from say 1962 ( the 1st year in the 60s that Geel qualified for the finals )

So we have 62 years/seasons, a decent mean average statistically speaking

The record is 5 Premierships 7 Grand Final losses , and here is the absolute shocker , i would say 15 to 17 Preliminary final losses , talk about a stack of wasted opportunities

So you are 1000 % correct in your summation of Geelong , the Cats never win Flags out of turn , they have to have the best or equal best side in the comp and they normally win the Premiership , go right back to the 50s where they won back to back flags in 51/52 , they won 30 games in a row or something , so they were clearly the best side back then

The only ones who wont like your accurate summation , are supporters who think their club is great , tremendous , utterly fantastic in every blooody thing

Its still a very good performance , but it could have been a fair bit better

 

[barmy44]

Agree with you, and that's what I was saying. That's part of our identity. A strong club that is frequently among the best but rarely the best, more of an obstacle for others to overcome.

4 flags looks good in isolation. It's better than most clubs.
But in that 07-24 period, we've made the top 8 16 times. Top 4 14 times. Top 2 ten times. We've played in 13 preliminary finals. We've gone on to the GF six times out of all those shots. And you think maybe that's not so bad, a bit less than half of the prelims we've won, but consider that most of those GF appearances were 2007-2011.

Take away those years, and we've gone 2 from 8 in prelims. 5 top 2 finishes, 9 top 4, 11 top 8, and two grand finals. One flag in that time. There has been no side in modern history to have anything like the record we've had in terms of H&A finishes and finals opportunities, but despite all that, we haven't really achieved anything more post-2011 than any other club, and others have achieved much more.

In the same period (or an even smaller period), Richmond finished top 2 one time. They finished top 4 four times. They played in 4 prelims. They made 3 grand finals and won 3 flags.

Hawthorn from 2008-2018 had a good run, but still nowhere near ours: Top 2 four times, top 4 eight times, 6 prelims. They made 5 GFs and won 4 flags. A similar return (albeit in a smaller timeframe), but the efficiency is again much greater. Basically half of the opportunity for the same return.

Which again is not to demean our achievements. We've done a fantastic job to be up and competitive for such a long period of time. But my point is that as a football club we need to come to terms with being a good H&A side, as well as a mature and professional football club, but not one that takes its chances. Outside of 07-11, it's been like that for a long time. Lots of good performances and an entertaining product, but not something that translates to ultimate success as measured by flags.

'Only flags matter' is kind of obvious, but maybe a bit flawed... and it's a silly way to gauge 'the best' team anyway. The % chance of 'the best' team winning it will always be less than the chances of 'someone else' winning it. If you are an 80% chance of winning three finals (which is heavy favourites in each individual game), you'd expect to win all three (and the flag) 51% of the time.

Seasons are short, so flukey results happen regularly.

Consider Clarkson and Lyon (pre returning to coaching).

Almost identical win-loss %s over a similar number of games.

What separates them? An '08 debacle from 'the best team', a club record final quarter fight back in '13 PF, an almost defeat in the '14 PF separate Clarkson from 1 or 0 flags.

Meanwhile, Lyon is unlucky in '09 (could easily have gone the other way), a ball bounce from winning '10... Hawks lose the '13 PF and maybe Freo beat us in 2013.

You can mount a case the difference between Clarkson and Lyon is an enormous gulf - 4 flags - or perhaps much smaller - just 6 or 7 unlucky quarters of footy, really. I lean towards the latter, personally.

Sometimes you have to acknowledge that in seasons and sport, some teams are going to have luck go their way more often than not and some will have it go against then more often than not and some will be about middle. It's common sense that over small sample sizes (and an AFL season kind of is just that, as is the AFLs history) some will be very successful from their opportunities and some won't be.

Toss a coin 100 times and 85 heads isn't that rare. Toss it one million times, and anything other than almost perfectly 50/50 is. A footy season is much closer to the 100 tosses.

You don't play seasons to find out the best team, you play them to find out which team wins. Sometimes it's the 'best team' and sometimes it isn't.

It's a bit dry viewing it in those terms, though... so I get the 'some clubs just have it, and some don't' angle.

But overall, you can do almost everything right and lose. You can do a lot wrong and win. It's a game with 10,000 moving parts, an odd shaped ball and four people in subjective charge of it.

 

[supahoops]

Geelong from basically the early 1960s the number of chances theve had , honestly they could have 20 Premirship Cups in the trophy cabinet .

The number of opportunities that Geelong have let slip through the net and you can add last Saturdays game to that sorrowful list .

Since 63 12-18 teams so on average in 60 odd years you’d expect 4 which we have. Slightly behind the ledger but we’ve given a good sight as a supporter base. But yeah 67, 81, 89, the 90’s, 08, 13, 19, 20 and now 24 make for so many missed opportunities for a variety of reasons.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

You talk like winning premierships is a run on the park and the opposition never turns up.

Interesting test for Longmire's coaching record.
Currently 1 Flag from 4 - 25%
Either goes to 40% or 20% this Saturday.........

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Interesting test for Longmire's coaching record.
Currently 1 Flag from 4 - 25%
Either goes to 40% or 20% this Saturday.........

Yeah it’s going to be shattering for the loser. Lions will either go back to back GF losses or the Swans will have lost the last 4 GF’s they have played in.
Brutal.

 

[And_ROOS]

Yeah it’s going to be shattering for the loser. Lions will either go back to back GF losses or the Swans will have lost the last 4 GF’s they have played in.
Brutal.

Growing up the phrase always was "you have to lose one to win one" and how the pain of losing a GF gives you that extra step the next time if there is one.

Have they announced the teams yet? Be interesting to see how many of the 2022 GF Swans and 2023 GF Lions are playing.

 

[cats_09]

Growing up the phrase always was "you have to lose one to win one" and how the pain of losing a GF gives you that extra step the next time if there is one.

Have they announced the teams yet? Be interesting to see how many of the 2022 GF Swans and 2023 GF Lions are playing.

 

[Generalissimo]

Hoping the Lions get it done, just for Darcy Fort

32

Darcy Fort

Age

31

Ht

204cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.6

2star

K

5.8

2star

HB

2.9

3star

M

1.9

2star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.2

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

3.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.8

3star

G

0.2

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

5.4

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.2

4star

. I always rated him.

 

[Seeds]

Starting to feel awfully annoyed we arent there. We should be there. Not sure i can watch it.

 

[Seeds]

Hoping the Lions get it done, just for Darcy Fort. I always rated him.

Why did you rate fort? Im staggered he is still on a list.

 

[goyoucatters]

Why did you rate fort? Im staggered he is still on a list.

In the modern world of AFL, there's no better position in which to simply be a good, honest trier than as a back-up ruckman.

If you can match that with some durability (as Forty has), you've got every chance of a longish stay on an AFL list.

 

[Generalissimo]

Being a good shot for goal helps too.

I thought he deserved more opportunities than he got at Geelong, and I'm happy for him that he's getting a chance at Brisbane.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Starting to feel awfully annoyed we arent there. We should be there. Not sure i can watch it.

Yeah we certainly let that one slip.
No one to blame but ourselves.

Gotta watch the game though surely.

 

[Vdubs]

At a certain point you have to accept your identity as a footy club. Geelong's identity is to be the bridesmaid, the challenger but rarely the champion. Perhaps a better way to label it is "the Gatekeper" - we're the sides other sides have to get to in order to get a shot at success, like a second-to-final boss in a video game. It's long been part of our history now. A strong, competitive club that does not accept mediocrity but at the same time struggles to consistently get over the line when the opportunity presents. All those missed chances in the 90s. We get three flags with an incredibly talented side (though could have had more), and then in the 2010s revert to the same as decades prior. Constantly close to the prize but rarely grasping it, in this case struggling to even get to the final day as we had in the 90s.

It's not a bad identity. It's certainly better than many others in the league hold. It sort of complements Hawthorn's, which is to take silverware from the slimmest of chances. They seem to find the most opportune times to strike and do it.

I think we really need to resign ourselves to it. We're a strong club. We do a lot very well. There is a lot for us to enjoy. But while we may be strong, we're rarely premiership-caliber strong, or even grand final strong.

We're a B+ player, the Triple H of footy, and that's not a bad spot to be in. We're close to the top but really there to make the true top look good.

Bit dramatic the way you describe it, but overall, your honest appraisal for this season is accurate- that clearly was not the case only 2 years ago
Where did you have us at the start of 24?
Hardly anyone had us as a top 2 contender, and losing a GF implies bridesmaid, not losing a prelim.
We are guilty only of overachieving, and giving our fans a glimmer of hope that there was a flag to be pinched. We know how addictive it is as a supporter when we win a flag- that indescribable euphoria can last the whole next season, but we wanted it again this year despite our team having many deficiencies.
Our team this year is definitely lacking personnel to render us A grade, as you said.
The years we lost GF's in the 80's, 90's- we were definitely beaten by better teams.
We were never favourites v Hawks, WCE, or Carlton.
The ONLY GF we were worthy of winning that we lost was 08- that was a travesty. Yet on the day, Hawks were better.
The very fact we took the lead with 2 minutes to go, but could not stop Brisbane scoring 2 (amazing) goals speaks volumes about hunger and quality. We simply were not good enough, whereas Brisbane have made hard work of getting to this GF given the sublime talent they have.

 

[Cosmic Energy]

I think what drives that narrative is the fact that three of the major Hawk injuries were deliberately done by our players, and two of those were caught directly on camera.

Buddha smashed Platten and knocked him out. Yeates kneed Brereton and broke his ribs, and Ablett absolutely cleaned up Dipper.

I can’t name which Hawk caused which Geelong injury.

I’m really not sure about this Yeates kneeing Brereton thing.

Brereton is one who is happy to talk about having injuries being the reason he got toweled up by Rhys Jones in 87, not exactly live by the sword, die by the sword, despite what he would have you think. I don’t buy this second hit theory. He certainly ran back at him as per the footage, but knee? I reckon we’d know about that.

 

[Commando]

Starting to feel awfully annoyed we arent there. We should be there. Not sure i can watch it.

I feel this

 

[Vdubs]

Starting to feel awfully annoyed we arent there. We should be there. Not sure i can watch it.

At what stage did you accept we lost the game?
Even when we got the lead with a few minutes to go, we could not stop their hunger for the win.
So I fail to see how we should have been there, notwithstanding our poor first 4 scores, losing Holmes, we still got into a winning position, but, as we saw....