Opinion Matthew Nicks: Adelaide's Coach (Part 3) - The Biggest Loser

[Greenfinger]

For years, as we played Finals, but failed to make the big dance ....this board continuously remonstrated the Club needed to bottom out, to have access to the best players in the Draft ....the narrative was, we were a middling club until we did bottom out

As soon as we do .....the natives don't accept the consequences .....it was a romantic ideology by supporters, but without the required patience

You miss the whole point. The inefficiency of our rebuild is what people are rightly critical of. We have had way too many first round failures which means the rebuild is taking far too long. If we don’t nail this off season for our midfield we run the very real risk of a rebuild failure.

 

[AFC979810]

IMO - we are a smart head coach away from a top 6 position.

We are smart coach and an elite full time midfielder away from being a top 2 team.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

I agree, but the claim was that no other (similar) coach has been handed a list in as bad a shape as ours.

Our list wasn't good, but it wasn't 0-13 historically bad levels of bad. A competent club would have had that list winning at least some of our early games.

Most of the major issues were stuff you highlighted. Not training hard during the shutdown is a coaching and culture issue. Horrendous (all time worst) assistant coaching panel. Ongoing camp damage. Covid sanctions. Rob Chapman and Andrew Fagan still there.

Actually the first 2 words in my post were "Serious question". It wasnt a claim. Perhaps we have a different way of viewing things. I see players not getting along and poor club culture as partially a list problem.

 

[mcleod at 50 lines it up]

IMO - we are a smart head coach away from a top 6 position.

We are smart coach and an elite full time midfielder away from being a top 2 team.

Lol easily solved then

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Sure it isn't that great, but let me show you a team that outperformed this group. The 2022 West Coast Eagles side that won 1 game (versus our 0) in the opening 13 games.

This is the side they rolled out in that win.

View attachment 2127331

And this is the side we rolled out in our best performance in round 1 2020 during our big losing streak

View attachment 2127338

I mean it's laughable that our team - which at times had basically our 2017 grand final midfield - couldn't win a game while West Coast rolls out a midfield of ****ing Jack Redden, Jamaine Jones, Xavier O'Neill and Luke Edwards and rolls a Collingwood team away featuring Nick Daicos, Jack Crisp, Steele Sidebottom and Scott Pendlebury.

There is no list quality explanation for the side we rolled out in 2020 imploding so completely relative to what they were dishing up in 2019. Especially when they performed about as well as that disgraceful West Coast side that required state league injury top ups

Talia was cooked, never recovered from a foot injury he played with through that season. This was not AA level Talia...
Milera played 2 games... Was replaced by untried and still unsuccessful Wil Hamill.
McAsey at centre half back, laughable
Jake Kelly, C Grader who this entire board wanted gone
Rory Atkins likewise, hasnt been able to get consistent games at the Suns
Frampton was banished from the forward line, dreadful
Tom Lynch was a shadow of his former self, 6 goals in 13 games
Ben Davis, do I need to say anything there?
Fog played half a season
Stengle missed a month after this game, whether from injury or from his drug issues that eventually ended with him being sacked I dont know
Gibbs, cooked
Murphy and Jones were useless then and are still useless now
Sloane was well below his usual even taking into account the restrictions

Like someone else said, the club had the perfect storm. Our list was pretty damn bad though. Youth was mostly failed draft picks, a lot of players missed games and stars were slowing down.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You miss the whole point. The inefficiency of our rebuild is what people are rightly critical of. We have had way too many first round failures which means the rebuild is taking far too long. If we don’t nail this off season for our midfield we run the very real risk of a rebuild failure.

Only IYO .....no more 1st round failures as you call them than any other Club ....but then you're looking at the old model of purely building thru the Draft

These days you have other means to supplement your list .....and we got Dawson, Murray, Keays,and now Cumming, ANB

You expect these draftees to be the finished product in 2-3 years ..... Soligo (57 gms), Nankervis (21 gms), Dowling (8 gms), Taylor (6 gms), Worrell (27 gms), Pedlar (30gms) , Cook (27 gms), Curtin (4gms), Edwards, Keane (28 gms), Murray (49 gms), Rachelle (53 gms) ....and these are end of 2024 season games tallies

You expect a lot !

Then you say, oh we didn't play them soon enough .....fallacy, as it assumes all players are physically and mentally ready to play straight after being drafted .....and if they're debut is delayed by 10 games, it probably only adds 2-3 games to their tallies ....unless you think 18-19 YO's can play every game in an AFL season, which is VERY RARELY the case

Most Clubs play rooks in 3-4 game blocks, such are the physical & mental demands

So you may think 5 years of a rebuild is a fail .....I don't, and most supporters after 2023 rightly expected us to play Finals in 2024 ....me included
But you know, with that youth I listed above, if you get "key" injuries .....Thilthorpe, Worrell, Murray ect .....it puts too much inexperience on the park

 

[jackster83]

Only IYO .....no more 1st round failures as you call them than any other Club ....but then you're looking at the old model of purely building thru the Draft

These days you have other means to supplement your list .....and we got Dawson, Murray, Keays,and now Cumming, ANB

You expect these draftees to be the finished product in 2-3 years ..... Soligo (57 gms), Nankervis (21 gms), Dowling (8 gms), Taylor (6 gms), Worrell (27 gms), Pedlar (30gms) , Cook (27 gms), Curtin (4gms), Edwards, Keane (28 gms), Murray (49 gms), Rachelle (53 gms) ....and these are end of 2024 season games tallies

You expect a lot !

Then you say, oh we didn't play them soon enough .....fallacy, as it assumes all players are physically and mentally ready to play straight after being drafted .....and if they're debut is delayed by 10 games, it probably only adds 2-3 games to their tallies ....unless you think 18-19 YO's can play every game in an AFL season, which is VERY RARELY the case

Most Clubs play rooks in 3-4 game blocks, such are the physical & mental demands

So you may think 5 years of a rebuild is a fail .....I don't, and most supporters after 2023 rightly expected us to play Finals in 2024 ....me included
But you know, with that youth I listed above, if you get "key" injuries .....Thilthorpe, Worrell, Murray ect .....it puts too much inexperience on the park

You can tolerate first round failures if you also have your fair share of hits.

The McHenry pick doesn't attract so much angst if we had taken Butters ahead of Jones.

We haven't had a first round pick go on to be AA (while playing for us) since Brodie Smith.

While we still have high hopes for Rachele, Thilthorpe, etc, that is an inexcusably bad record.

 

[CrowBloke]

The inefficiency of our rebuild is what people are rightly critical of. We have had way too many first round failures which means the rebuild is taking far too long.

It's hard to determine if the failures have been:
--- poor choices by the Draft personnel or
--- first-round draftees not buying in to the Club or
--- poor development by our Coach (wrt to AFL selection and playing them out of position).
Maybe a combo of all 3? Here they are from 2016 onwards:
Jordan Gallucci (2016), 27 games, a dud.
Darcy Fogarty (2017), finally come good but it's taken 7 years.
Chayce Jones (2018) borderline best-22, Ned McHenry (2018) now a SANFL regular (justifiably),
Fischer McAsey (2019), a total bust and the Crows could have picked Serong who went at #8. That's an extremely poor error of judgment.
Riley Thilthorpe (2020), slow to develop but will be a star if injury-free.
Luke Pedlar (2020), I still think he could be best-22.
Josh Rachele (2021), underdeveloped, possible star
Max Michalanney (2022) gun from Day One, definite winner.
Daniel Curtin (2023), treated very poorly by Nicks.

If we don’t nail this off season for our midfield we run the very real risk of a rebuild failure.

After 5 years, we're 15th (18th/15th/14th/10th/15th, average 14th place). Nicks' record is appalling.
Mitchell has taken the young Hawks to 7th in 3 years. Likewise, it took Chris Fagan only 3 years for Brisbane to play Finals in which they've been contenders for the last 6 years.
I'd say our 'rebuild' has failed after 5 years.

 

[Cromulant]

It's hard to determine if the failures have been:
--- poor choices by the Draft personnel or
--- first-round draftees not buying in to the Club or
--- poor development by our Coach (wrt to AFL selection and playing them out of position).
Maybe a combo of all 3? Here they are from 2016 onwards:
Jordan Gallucci (2016), 27 games, a dud.
Darcy Fogarty (2017), finally come good but it's taken 7 years.
Chayce Jones (2018) borderline best-22, Ned McHenry (2018) now a SANFL regular (justifiably),
Fischer McAsey (2019), a total bust and the Crows could have picked Serong who went at #8. That's an extremely poor error of judgment.
Riley Thilthorpe (2020), slow to develop but will be a star if injury-free.
Luke Pedlar (2020), I still think he could be best-22.
Josh Rachele (2021), underdeveloped, possible star
Max Michalanney (2022) gun from Day One, definite winner.
Daniel Curtin (2023), treated very poorly by Nicks.

After 5 years, we're 15th (18th/15th/14th/10th/15th, average 14th place). Nicks' record is appalling.
Mitchell has taken the young Hawks to 7th in 3 years. Likewise, it took Chris Fagan only 3 years for Brisbane to play Finals in which they've been contenders for the last 6 years.
I'd say our 'rebuild' has failed after 5 years.

I love how we go "treated very poorly" with next to no idea whether thats true or not.

Granted he shouldnt have been the sub so often, but despite his failings as a coach im sure Nicks made sure Dan knew what was going on. The midfield move late in the season was something Nicks actually did right.

 

[CrowBloke]

I love how we go "treated very poorly" with next to no idea whether thats true or not.

Fair response, thanks.
Yes, we have no idea what's gone on behind closed doors; it was just my opinion.
Wasn't Curtin subbed off at 1/2 time in one game (or was that Dowling?), then in another subbed on only to sit on the bench for 10 minutes before actually playing?
Fwiw, I think the Club's treatment of Rachele has been poor too. I've been critical of Rachele's tendency to shirk a contest and I'd like to see him tone down the FIGJAM-I've-kicked-a-goal celebrations.
There must be more to his being dropped for the last round because if it's only about the "toothless" ferals silliness, then it's too harsh.

Granted he shouldnt have been the sub so often, but despite his failings as a coach im sure Nicks made sure Dan knew what was going on. The midfield move late in the season was something Nicks actually did right.

I hope you're right about Nicks keeping Curtin well-informed; I'd be pleasantly surprised if that's the case.
As for "the midfield move", well, wasn't that why Curtin was recruited (BOG as a mid vs East Fremantle in 2023 "game-high 26 possessions - including 18 contested - to go with a staggering 12 clearances and 11 tackles")? 197cms and still only 19 the big kid can footy and needs as much AFL time as possible.

 

[JPetro83]

Is there a list of possible candidates that could possibly coach us beyond 2025 once /If Nicks goes?
The thought of Hayden Skipworth

Hayden Skipworth

Age

41

Ht

177cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.3

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

5.8

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.4

4star

applying freaks me out.. he almost got the West Coast Job! we were on the right track in 2014 when we went down the path with Phil Walsh.. he was the Fagan type. i hope with the success Fagan has brought the Lions that more AFL clubs look at older experienced footy people. i do not want a rookie coach to coach the Crows

 

[AFC979810]

Is there a list of possible candidates that could possibly coach us beyond 2025 once /If Nicks goes?
The thought of Hayden Skipworth applying freaks me out.. he almost got the West Coast Job! we were on the right track in 2014 when we went down the path with Phil Walsh.. he was the Fagan type. i hope with the success Fagan has brought the Lions that more AFL clubs look at older experienced footy people. i do not want a rookie coach to coach the Crows

There will be an interesting transition over the next 10 years with head coaching in the AFL.

We are a copy cat league - particularly trying to copy NBA/NFL. These leagues - professional players who are head coaches are the minority (16 out of 32 in the NBA and 11 out of 32 in the NFL).

With Fagan becoming the first premiership coach to have never played AFL football you better believe that this will start a trend. (Also note the premiership winning coaches in both the WAFL and SANFL also hadn't played at either SANFL/WAFL/AFL level either). SANFL star Jimmy Allan won the VFL flag as the head coach.

 

[GreyCrow]

There will be an interesting transition over the next 10 years with head coaching in the AFL.

We are a copy cat league - particularly trying to copy NBA/NFL. These leagues - professional players who are head coaches are the minority (16 out of 32 in the NBA and 11 out of 32 in the NFL).

With Fagan becoming the first premiership coach to have never played AFL football you better believe that this will start a trend. (Also note the premiership winning coaches in both the WAFL and SANFL also hadn't played at either SANFL/WAFL/AFL level either). SANFL star Jimmy Allan won the VFL flag as the head coach.

Mark Stone is also mentioned highly

I think the real well of talent are those in schools teaching a subject + the football program

Clarkson and Fagan were both these types of coaches

During his playing days with North Melbourne, Clarkson was employed by Wesley College, Melbourne, as a physical education teacher.

Lions website 2017

Fagan’s first trade was as a school teacher in his local Tasmania. He says the skills you learn as a teacher are integral to success in coaching.

“Teaching is about managing people. It’s about building relationships. It’s about taking a person from one point and getting them to the next point.”

But he emphasises, it must be kept simple.

 

[AFC979810]

Mark Stone is also mentioned highly

Just signed up as a head coach in the WAFL for 3 years.

Another non player would be Dale Tapping (Assistant for the Bombers - with previous stints at Sandringham, Collingwood, Brisbane).

 

[jenny61_99]

On five double crow, yes, but mostly crickets from the Vic Media, we're just irrelevant at the moment. A poor start in 2025 though and we'll get piled on.

And rightfully so.

 

[FR0GGY]

Mark Stone is also mentioned highly

I think the real well of talent are those in schools teaching a subject + the football program

Clarkson and Fagan were both these types of coaches

During his playing days with North Melbourne, Clarkson was employed by Wesley College, Melbourne, as a physical education teacher.

Lions website 2017

Fagan’s first trade was as a school teacher in his local Tasmania. He says the skills you learn as a teacher are integral to success in coaching.

“Teaching is about managing people. It’s about building relationships. It’s about taking a person from one point and getting them to the next point.”

But he emphasises, it must be kept simple.

What’s triggy up to these days?