Player Watch Nick Daicos - Can he be the GOAT?

[Arr0w]

You tend to lose credibility when having a ‘serious and balanced debate’ when referring to players as ‘Goatie’ as well, doesn’t quite have a serious and balanced ring to it.

Have you read the OP?

Fairly certain GAJ won in a bottom 4 if not bottom 2 side.

He didn't

Okay, so your entire argument about Sheezel being superior to ‘Goatie’ at the same age is largely irrelevant in that case.

Irrelevant to who?

Until he starts being talked about as one of, if not the best players in the competition, Sheezel and your pontifications about him and his stats are beside the point. Even according to your own logic.

Talked about by the media? I don't base judgements on clickbait

So we aren't basing it on stats or even vision, we are basing it on votes? I'm sure we covered this earlier

We see it differently, that's fine, but more than happy how I view the game, in this case as a neutral

 

[DopeMaster]

Have you read the OP?

Yes.

He didn't

Bottom 5 then. You're becoming a touch pedantic.

Irrelevant to who?

Irrelevant to your argument.

Talked about by the media? I don't base judgements on clickbait

So we aren't basing it on stats or even vision, we are basing it on votes? I'm sure we covered this earlier

Combination of expert opinions and analysis, players opinions, stats, vision, votes etc. Far more comprehensive than your multi-verse hypotheses of 2nd year player actually being a first year player whilst playing for a different team.

We see it differently, that's fine, but more than happy how I view the game, in this case as a neutral

Very content to agree that we see things differently. Also happy to admit that in this case I am most definitely not a neutral (self-evident), whilst remaining deeply skeptical of your own claimed neutrality.

 

[DopeMaster]

Both are guns. But I'm taking Harley Reid over Daicos. I want a guy that puts his head over the footy. And don't spit me 'contested possession' numbers. That isn't a hard ball.

And probably Sheezel over both of them given the multi-verse same-age different-team hypothesis argued so persuasively in this thread?

For the record Reid could definitely end up the better player. That kid has some insane attributes.

 

[Arr0w]

Bottom 5 then. You're becoming a touch pedantic.

I'm not the one shifting the criteria. Sheezel is playing in the bottom side, yet you want him to buck what any player has done this century, while being a year younger, to be in award contention?

Combination of expert opinions and analysis, players opinions, stats, vision, votes etc. Far more comprehensive than your multi-verse hypotheses of 2nd year player actually being a first year player whilst playing for a different team.

My statement has never changed "at the same age"

Very content to agree that we see things differently. Also happy to admit that in this case I am most definitely not a neutral (self-evident), whilst remaining deeply skeptical of your own claimed neutrality.

You being sceptical, is your prerogative, but I'm brutally honest about any player

Example, I didn't rate Walsh the best player of his draft, due to what I believed others having a greater impact long term. Pure footy, I still have a number of players ahead of him

Still sceptical?

 

[DopeMaster]

I'm not the one shifting the criteria. Sheezel is playing in the bottom side, yet you want him to buck what any player has done this century, while being a year younger, to be in award contention?

To be in the discussion (which I admit to being still unsure of your rationale behind putting him in it), I'd expect him to have some sort of impact in votes. At the same stage in their second seasons, Daicos was clearly in the lead of the coaches MVP, and likely would have won it barring a late season injury. Sheezel isn't in the top twenty.

My statement has never changed "at the same age"

In continuation of the above, your assertion that we must consider Sheezel a first year player when compared to 'Goatie' is disingenuous. The fact he is 9 months younger doesn't make him a first year player, it makes him a younger second year player with two full pre-seasons behind him, and a similar amount of AFL games played at the same stage of their respective careers.

You being sceptical, is your prerogative, but I'm brutally honest about any player

Example, I didn't rate Walsh the best player of his draft, due to what I believed others having a greater impact long term. Pure footy, I still have a number of players ahead of him

Still sceptical?

Appreciate your candour. I don't rate Walsh the best player in his draft either (though he's not too far off it). Slightly less, but still somewhat sceptical given you're such a prolific contributor to this thread. Not quite top 4, but top 5 (if you'll allow it).

Reveals a certain passion or revulsion for the subject matter which suggests anything but neutrality, and I suspect it's not related to Harry Sheezel.

 

[Arr0w]

To be in the discussion (which I admit to being still unsure of your rationale behind putting him in it), I'd expect him to have some sort of impact in votes. At the same stage in their second seasons, Daicos was clearly in the lead of the coaches MVP, and likely would have won it barring a late season injury. Sheezel isn't in the top twenty.

"At the same age" we'd have to wait until 2025 for Sheezel perhaps

Is age the number 1 factor? No, but early on and until both players find some form of mature, it's an important factor

In continuation of the above, your assertion that we must consider Sheezel a first year player when compared to 'Goatie' is disingenuous. The fact he is 9 months younger doesn't make him a first year player, it makes him a younger second year player with two full pre-seasons behind him.

Sheezel 2024, Goatie 2022, both playing the entire year as 19 year olds

Appreciate your candour. I don't rate Walsh the best player in his draft either (though he's not too far off it). Slightly less, but still somewhat sceptical given you're such a prolific contributor to this thread. Not quite top 4, but top 5 (if you'll allow it).

If people troll, I'll respond in kind, but prefer balanced footy debates

Reveals a certain passion or revulsion for the subject matter which suggests anything but neutrality, and I suspect it's not related to Harry Sheezel.

Happy to discuss any player, or previous thoughts

List Mgmt. - Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread (cont. in Part 2)

How many list spots do we have available? Out: Byrne, Lamb, Graham, Kerridge, ASOS (rookie), Rowe, JGM (rookie), Wright. In: setterfield, mcgovern, fasolo, Newman Does that leave 2 list spots and 2 rookie spots? Don’t we need to draft 3 players minumum in national draft or van that be over...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Gone Critical]

McRae another undeserved 5 votes for Daicos. Clearly in his contract.

Of course given 3 players got 8 votes you have no idea who got the 5s let alone from which coach. Worst case by your fears is McRae 5 Hardwick 3, best McRae 3 Hardwick 5. Maybe he got 4 from each. Anyway it seems the best 3 mids on the ground got 8 each which is a pretty fair result.

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't have a horse in this race, I'm a neutral when it comes to both players

But I'm surprised how many people think brownlow and coaches votes is an indication of the better player, when everyone knows votes generally favour players from winning teams

Point in case, could you name a Brownlow winner this century that came from a bottom 2 side?

While stats don't show pure impact, I think everyone can concede both Sheezel and Goatie are elite talents

Its a 2 edged sword to argue players in bottom teams don't get enough votes. Is it because players in top teams are assessed better than they should be by the umps or coaches or are the bottom teams on the bottom because the talent/develoment isnt there so they dont get votes. Probably an element of both but I think mainly the better players are in the better teams.

interesting argument though, would be stronger if we can come up with some players in lower teams who were clearly hard done by in the awards. Cant think of an obvious one off the top but will have a look.

Anyway the Coaches and Brownlow have clear limitations and benefit mids these days as its such a midfield game in this era. Still they are still the best 2 competition wide awards.

Even considering the limitations anyone would have to concede its extraordinary and unheralded for a 2nd player to be leading both clearly late in the season when he gets injured and still places in both. Then backs up in year 3 and with 8 rounds to go is Brownlow fav, is heading very close to leading the AFLCA and also leads the Age award (havent looked at other media awards)

Whatever limitations you place on awards this is uncharted territory in the modern game and deserves to be acknowledged. Judd is probably the poster player for dynamic young players in the AFL era and he made you gasp. He went 0, 12,30 15 Brownlow votes in his 1st 4 years. Lets do his year 2,3 and 4 compared to Nicks 1,2and 3 to accounrt for Daicos being an older draftee

Judd 57 votes
Daicos 39 + 2024 votes, lets be conservative and say he only gets 20, would be 59. Not bad

 

[Gone Critical]

Both are guns. But I'm taking Harley Reid over Daicos. I want a guy that puts his head over the footy. And don't spit me 'contested possession' numbers. That isn't a hard ball.

Earlier again to know how good Reid can be but he is an altogether different beast and the most interesting to speculate on. If he franks what he has done so far he may go by everyone. Stupidly early to say that but he is stunning.

I don't think Daics lacks in going at the ball, kinda silly argument when you watch him but Reid has power that is off the planet.

 

[danster168]

Earlier again to know how good Reid can be but he is an altogether different beast and the most interesting to speculate on. If he franks what he has done so far he may go by everyone. Stupidly early to say that but he is stunning.

I don't think Daics lacks in going at the ball, kinda silly argument when you watch him but Reid has power that is off the planet.

I think Daicos has improved but he still squibs contests and we saw many instances of that earlier on in the year that went viral in the footy world. He's an absolute gun don't get me wrong. It's just a rare weakness in his game and that's fine.

 

[DopeMaster]

"At the same age" we'd have to wait until 2025 for Sheezel perhaps

Is age the number 1 factor? No, but early on and until both players find some form of mature, it's an important factor


Sheezel 2024, Goatie 2022, both playing the entire year as 19 year olds


If people troll, I'll respond in kind, but prefer balanced footy debates


Happy to discuss any player, or previous thoughts

List Mgmt. - Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread (cont. in Part 2)

How many list spots do we have available? Out: Byrne, Lamb, Graham, Kerridge, ASOS (rookie), Rowe, JGM (rookie), Wright. In: setterfield, mcgovern, fasolo, Newman Does that leave 2 list spots and 2 rookie spots? Don’t we need to draft 3 players minumum in national draft or van that be over...

www.bigfooty.com

Fair enough. You think X I believe Y. Happy to park it there. Pleasure doing business with you Arrow.

 

[Arr0w]

Its a 2 edged sword to argue players in bottom teams don't get enough votes. Is it because players in top teams are assessed better than they should be by the umps or coaches or are the bottom teams on the bottom because the talent/develoment isnt there so they dont get votes. Probably an element of both but I think mainly the better players are in the better teams.

It's certainly both in my view and if we are talking about individual players swapping from a top side to bottom side, the attention they attract also changes

Swap Sheezel and Warner, the outcomes by the masses also changes, dramatically

interesting argument though, would be stronger if we can come up with some players in lower teams who were clearly hard done by in the awards. Cant think of an obvious one off the top but will have a look.

Anyway the Coaches and Brownlow have clear limitations and benefit mids these days as its such a midfield game in this era. Still they are still the best 2 competition wide awards.

I'm not much for these type of awards, they are hugely tainted, I rate BnFs higher

Even considering the limitations anyone would have to concede its extraordinary and unheralded for a 2nd player to be leading both clearly late in the season when he gets injured and still places in both. Then backs up in year 3 and with 8 rounds to go is Brownlow fav, is heading very close to leading the AFLCA and also leads the Age award (havent looked at other media awards)

No one is doubting his talent, but this is an interesting study. Pies started the season slow, while Nick was still the sides strongest contributor. Wonder how he polls in those first 3 games

Whatever limitations you place on awards this is uncharted territory in the modern game and deserves to be acknowledged. Judd is probably the poster player for dynamic young players in the AFL era and he made you gasp. He went 0, 12,30 15 Brownlow votes in his 1st 4 years. Lets do his year 2,3 and 4 compared to Nicks 1,2and 3 to accounrt for Daicos being an older draftee

Judd 57 votes
Daicos 39 + 2024 votes, lets be conservative and say he only gets 20, would be 59. Not bad

No one has ever stated he isn't a special talent, but I don't see goat status and on pure output, Sheezel should be well in the conversation, if it was warranted

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Of course given 3 players got 8 votes you have no idea who got the 5s let alone from which coach. Worst case by your fears is McRae 5 Hardwick 3, best McRae 3 Hardwick 5. Maybe he got 4 from each. Anyway it seems the best 3 mids on the ground got 8 each which is a pretty fair result.

I think Noah was the smallest bit better than Daicos but to say Daicos doesn’t deserve 8 is silly

Murphy won the coaches award with a bit of help from Ratten, of course your coach is gonna take care of you

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Is Nick umpired differently?

Let’s see:
FF 27 (10th)
FA 25 (10th)

Other high CBA/Clearance players:
Cripps: 30, 25 (6th/10th)
Heeney: 28, 12 (8th/124th)
Reid: 30,26 (6th/8th)
JHF: 28,14 (8th/85th)

Yes, Nick, Cripps and Reid get rinsed by the umpires and deserve better care given the taggers scrag them all game

 

[Gone Critical]

I think Noah was the smallest bit better than Daicos but to say Daicos doesn’t deserve 8 is silly

Murphy won the coaches award with a bit of help from Ratten, of course your coach is gonna take care of you

Reckon most coaches try to be impartial. If Ratten pushed Murph up a bit the man it would have cost most is Judd. They were 1st and 2nd that year. Swan got Judds brownlow that year also while Judd got Swannys in 2010

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Reckon most coaches try to be impartial. If Ratten pushed Murph up a bit the man it would have cost most is Judd. They were 1st and 2nd that year. Swan got Judds brownlow that year also while Judd got Swannys in 2010

Yeah they would be impartial don’t get me wrong, however there’s an inherent bias towards your own players and personal relationships trump all

Murphy was a deserving winner, as was Judd - though I can recall the furore about Murph winning it ahead of Judd

 

[danielnajdek]

I think Noah was the smallest bit better than Daicos but to say Daicos doesn’t deserve 8 is silly

Murphy won the coaches award with a bit of help from Ratten, of course your coach is gonna take care of you

Your not wrong coaches do take care of their own. Have a look at the Port/St Kilda coaches votes. Butters got 5 from one coach and none from the other. Not hard to guess who gave him 5.

 

[Fadge]

Your not wrong coaches do take care of their own. Have a look at the Port/St Kilda coaches votes. Butters got 5 from one coach and none from the other. Not hard to guess who gave him 5.

Yeah, I saw that - highly unusual voting.

JHF the only player with votes from both coaches...

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Your not wrong coaches do take care of their own. Have a look at the Port/St Kilda coaches votes. Butters got 5 from one coach and none from the other. Not hard to guess who gave him 5.

Yeah, I saw that - highly unusual voting.

JHF the only player with votes from both coaches...

Yeah it does happen

Just can’t believe how up in arms people are over Nick getting 8 votes when he nearly won the game for the Pies

I’d have given him 4, Noah 5

 

[Ricmel]

It is impossible to compare a modern day player to a player from other eras.
As great as a player today might be they do not play looking over their shoulder, they do not play and require the sane courage players from previous eras needed to. The modern player knows that 98% of the time he can’t be touched and what previous eras called tough and aggressive is now seen as mass murder.

Really shows a total lack of understanding of the game. Today’s players are as brave as any era. They face slightly different dangers - high speed collisions and much stronger bodies vs sniping - but more games are missed from injury today than they were 40 years ago.

You have to be very brave to step into an AFL game. The average male would last about 10 minutes.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Really shows a total lack of understanding of the game. Today’s players are as brave as any era. They face slightly different dangers - high speed collisions and much stronger bodies vs sniping - but more games are missed from injury today than they were 40 years ago.

You have to be very brave to step into an AFL game. The average male would last about 10 minutes.

Rubbish, never been a better time to play footy. Absolute Hollywood playing todays game.

 

[Ricmel]

No one has ever stated he isn't a special talent, but I don't see goat status and on pure output, Sheezel should be well in the conversation, if it was warranted

Nope. Daicos is a completely different level to Sheezel. Daicos on current trajectory will be one of the all time greats.

Sheezel will have a very respectable Shane Crawford type career.

 

[Arr0w]

Nope. Daicos is a completely different level to Sheezel. Daicos on current trajectory will be one of the all time greats.

Sheezel will have a very respectable Shane Crawford type career.

Perhaps, or he may not

I was merely commenting on the now or what has transpired

 

[DopeMaster]

Perhaps, or he may not

I was merely commenting on the now or what has transpired

Would you care to put a future projection forward using your nous as a person with a history in player development?

 

[Arr0w]

Would you care to put a future projection forward using your nous as a person with a history in player development?

I think both players will be modern day stars of the game

IMHO, to reach another level, i think Nick needs to work harder defensively, but many players across the league have others that cover for them with defensive transition

I also think he is at his best bringing players into the game more

As for Sheezel, even though he seems laconic, he doesn't seem to have the natural drive and intent to gut run from contest to contest as yet, I'd say that's a main area of focus