Oppo Camp Non Geelong football (AFL) discussion 2022, part II

[Stokey]

I'm usually living in the UK so much of the background of this has passed me by.

Why was the external review asked for? Was it due to these specific allegations or was the review carried out after the Collingwood saga?

I also question the timing. Not that it shouldn't be released but this has been a season that has revived AFL, the game we love. To release it in GF week does feel like opportunism. I understand the greatest impact argument but can't we just focus on football and its strengths. Stories like Tyson etc rather than casting a dark cloud over this week.

This is shocking news whenever it is released and waiting a week isn't going to change anything.

 

[Sticksman]

Read this on the Hawthorn board. It's a fair summary of the situation:

• External, independent panel to be established by the AFL to fully investigate the allegations. Four people to join the panel, and it will be run by an appropriate King's Counsel.
• AFL has had the report for a week. It's a confidential report and it is unknown who are the complainants, as they have been de-identified. There are no plans to release the report.
• If I heard him correctly, Gillon mentioned that there were matters raised in the report from the ABC that weren't covered in the report.
• Been discussed with Linda Burney (the Commonwealth minister for indigenous affairs)
• Intend to increase the confidence of people to "tell their stories".
• "Both sides need to be heard and the process will flesh that out". Inappropriate to comment about the positions of Clarkson and Fagan while the process will continue.
• However, there will be an answer today about whether Clarkson and Fagan should stand down while the investigation is ongoing.
• Question asked about Newbold and whether he should step down from the Commission while the investigation is ongoing. Newbold is currently overseas, but Goyder will have a discussion with Newbold.

 

[Cataholic]

I'm usually living in the UK so much of the background of this has passed me by.

Why was the external review asked for? Was it due to these specific allegations or was the review carried out after the Collingwood saga?

I also question the timing. Not that it shouldn't be released but this has been a season that has revived AFL, the game we love. To release it in GF week does feel like opportunism. I understand the greatest impact argument but can't we just focus on football and its strengths. Stories like Tyson etc rather than casting a dark cloud over this week.

This is shocking news whenever it is released and waiting a week isn't going to change anything.

I reckon Hawthorn commissioned the independent report following Rioli's revelations.

 

[Sky]

I'd say there's different parts to that and it's played out differently over the years

When first reported the wasn't a lot of detailed information about what actually happened at the camp, and it was more that Adelaide was being mocked over the idea of the came especially as they were coming off a grand final appearance and then shat the bed the next season - it was being reported like a few players just didn't like having to do some hard work


Then look at the response this year when a couple of former players felt that they were now in a better position themselves to speak out about what had happened during the camp, and suddenly instead of mocking Adelaide the responses were more like, "WTF were they doing, and how could they think that was ever ok"

If the public knew back then what they know now, I have no doubt that the initial response would be totally different

Both situations are just awful and I think it’s the only thing we are going to agree on. I live in Adelaide and most of you are Victorian so maybe I’m seeing it differently.

 

[Stokey]

Both situations are just awful and I think it’s the only thing we are going to agree on. I live in Adelaide and most of you are Victorian so maybe I’m seeing it differently.

The Adelaide saga and betraying people's trust and then using it against was shocking but forcing players to end relationships and terminate pregnancies is just so shocking it's unimaginable.

 

[patdman]

https://www.bigw.com.au/product/the-boys-club-by-michael-warner/p/221321

Worth a read.

Thank you, that's the one!

 

[CabWesty]

I hate Hawthorn as much as anyone possibly could - just wanted to get that out of the way first. It is my hope other club supporters don't look at this as a point scoring opportunity. Hawk fans are our mates, workmates, family and they would be feeling absolutely flattened by this. This is a bigger issue than footy rivalry, have a bit of empathy for what your mates are going through with this news, because the club they support has made horrendous decisions doesn't mean they are personally involved or responsible. Most have strongly expressed their condemnation of what has taken place.

The players and families affected - nothing anyone can say or do can 'fix' what has happened. I just hope they will be supported as best is possible. Think about what you say when you bag players - you never know what they are going through in their personal lives. I don't know how, but am hopeful some good can come of this eventually. All clubs including ours should be commissioning similar investigations, I'd be devastated if this is more widespread.

Seriously shaken by this. Feel sick.

Those poor young men and women and families.

We have to give opportunity for the truth to run its course and provide the presumption of innocence. We've seen media pile ons in the past, and we cannot have trial by media. But this looks like a life destroying horror show.

(And in the midst of this also I feel for families of the alleged instigators of this whose lives are also going to come crashing down.)

I've got an indigenous friend who her and her dad are mad keen Hawthorn supporters. Where do they go?

Folks, I'm also going to ask us all to be really careful about what is said on here. While we're all horrified, we cannot go down a path of saying things that might be prejudicial to a trial if these matters end up in court.

 

[Micksy]

I'm going to the afl website and i see grand final stuff and my immediate thought is "who gives a shit anymore".
It's just a ****ing game.

 

[Cataholic]

I guess the AFL's refusal to release the report answers my question about their willingness to be transparent.......

 

[Spearman]

Will they though?

Do they have the strength of character, belief and integrity to do that once / if they satisfy themselves that it's true?

I wouldn't be too optimistic. A club has a systemic PED program and how severely have they been punished? A year or two from now we'll be hearing "We cannot have Clarkson lost to the game!"

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

I think we need to wait until the full report is done before taking any actions

 

[Stokey]

Read this on the Hawthorn board. It's a fair summary of the situation:

• External, independent panel to be established by the AFL to fully investigate the allegations. Four people to join the panel, and it will be run by an appropriate King's Counsel.
• AFL has had the report for a week. It's a confidential report and it is unknown who are the complainants, as they have been de-identified. There are no plans to release the report.
• If I heard him correctly, Gillon mentioned that there were matters raised in the report from the ABC that weren't covered in the report.
• Been discussed with Linda Burney (the Commonwealth minister for indigenous affairs)
• Intend to increase the confidence of people to "tell their stories".
• "Both sides need to be heard and the process will flesh that out". Inappropriate to comment about the positions of Clarkson and Fagan while the process will continue.
• However, there will be an answer today about whether Clarkson and Fagan should stand down while the investigation is ongoing.
• Question asked about Newbold and whether he should step down from the Commission while the investigation is ongoing. Newbold is currently overseas, but Goyder will have a discussion with Newbold.

This would want to be sorted before Clarkson starts at North on Nov 1.

 

[Cataholic]

This would want to be sorted before Clarkson starts at North on Nov 1.

Well before that even.

If he were to be stood down as a resultit leaves little time for NM to find an alternative.

 

[Stokey]

I wouldn't be too optimistic. A club has a systemic PED program and how severely have they been punished? A year or two from now we'll be hearing "We cannot have Clarkson lost to the game!"

This goes well beyond that in my opinion.

Well before that even.

If he were to be stood down as a resultit leaves little time for NM to find an alternative.

Or Brisbane...

 

[CatTricks]

Hawthorn, the family club dumpster fire.

 

[evolutionbaby]

This would want to be sorted before Clarkson starts at North on Nov 1.

No chance of that happening. This will be protracted.

 

[Kitcat]

Last year on the weekend before the Grand Final, which was the bye weekend, the ABC ran a story alleging that Tom Wills, a founder of our football, had shot an aboriginal man. It was based on an anonymous letter written to a Chicago paper in 1895 which was so factually inaccurate that it had no evidentiary weight at all.

 

[BlakeyNoFlakey]

We need to tread lightly for the sake of the victims. A full review by the AFL is a good step, and all sides need to be heard in this matter. But even if a smidge of what has been reported today is true, then those involved should lose any current positions they have within the AFL. Including those in senior coaching positions. The allegations are horrific and a violation of the victims' human rights. When we think back to the recent Do Better report from Collingwood, the allegations made by Eddie Betts about the AFC infamous preseason camp, the booing and character assassination of Adam Goodes, and the Hertia Lumumba situation, then it's clear the AFL (IMHO) has a lot of work to do on this issue just as we do in our society.

 

[evolutionbaby]

We need to tread lightly for the sake of the victims. A full review by the AFL is a good step, and all sides need to be heard in this matter. But even if a smidge of what has been reported today is true, then those involved should lose any current positions they have within the AFL. Including those in senior coaching positions. The allegations are horrific and a violation of the victims' human rights. When we think back to the recent Do Better report from Collingwood, the allegations made by Eddie Betts about the AFC infamous preseason camp, the booing and character assassination of Adam Goodes, and the Hertia Lumumba situation, then it's clear the AFL (IMHO) has a lot of work to do on this issue just as we do in our society.

If social media is any indication there is a lot of work to be done everywhere.
The number of Neanderthals out there with IQs not quite room temperature is truly amazing.
Other than stopping stupid people from breeding, there aren't any easy answers.

 

[Cataholic]

No chance of that happening. This will be protracted.

Can't see how Clarko and Fagan aren't suspended for the duration given how grave the allegations against them are.

 

[Turkey Tom]

How in the world those accused came to the conclusion that to separate families and ask one couple to have an abortion was a "good" thing to do to "win"???

Anyway, if I was North or Brisbane I would be talking to possible coaches now. Ross Lyon is the obvious one....just ring him up and ask what his terms are.

 

[Spearman]

This goes well beyond that in my opinion.

I agree, it's much more than just a sport thing, especially given some of the history of colonial Australia.

My point is the AFL is going to have to be prodded and threatened much, much harder than ever before. If systemic cheating is not taken very seriously by a sports organization, then integrity is not much of a force within it. For them to act decisively and strongly there will have to be such an uproar by the public at large, and by that influencing the life blood of the AFL; their sponsors and other revenue streams. This will have to go beyond the TV panels, SM, and the blogosphere, and for more than a few news cycles. The AFL are going to try to minimize whatever they can about the situation or install cosmetic measures. They won't want to be lumped in with some of those infamous groups that committed the atrocities from the past, but they won't want to do anything too drastic if they can help it.
So it will be decided by the stamina of the Australian populace.
IMHO

 

[sauron256]

Club Statement - Chris Fagan

The official AFL website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club

www.lions.com.au

The Brisbane Lions are aware Senior Coach Chris Fagan will work with the AFL on an investigation into allegations concerning historical events at the Hawthorn Football Club, where he was a former employee.

Chris supports and welcomes the investigation.

He was not consulted during the Hawthorn sponsored review and looks forward to the opportunity to be heard as part of the AFL investigation.

The Brisbane Lions and Chris have mutually agreed that he will take a leave of absence from the Club so he can fully cooperate in the investigation.

As the matters are now with the AFL Integrity Unit, the Brisbane Lions won't make any further comment at this stage.

 

[Cataholic]

How in the world those accused came to the conclusion that to separate families and ask one couple to have an abortion was a "good" thing to do to "win"???

Anyway, if I was North or Brisbane I would be talking to possible coaches now. Ross Lyon is the obvious one....just ring him up and ask what his terms are.

It's tough for all concerned.

The on-going saga will cause more trauma to the victims.

Clarko and Fagan are entitled to the presumption of innocence, and the right to a thorough investigation.

North and the Lions need the benefit of a thorough investigation.

A thorough investigation needs all the time necessary to preserve its integrity.

North and the Lions need a fast resolution......which flies in the face of all the above.

 

[Baudolino]

I'm going to the afl website and i see grand final stuff and my immediate thought is "who gives a s**t anymore".
It's just a ******* game.

So we shouldn't give a shit about the Grand Final now? We're not supposed to enjoy or be interested in the build-up to our best opportunity to win a flag in more than 10 years because of what some arseh*le ex-Hawthorn coaches (allegedly) did that has nothing to do with us or our club? If so, why wouldn't the same logic apply to the atrocities that the Russians have been committing in Ukrainian throughout the year? Did you say "who gives a shit about footy, it's all trivial" during all our other games when stuff that matters more than kicking a ball around an oval was happening? Did caring about something as insignificant as footy while the Russian invasion of Ukraine was ongoing mean that you didn't have your priorities straight or that you didn't care about the suffering of Ukrainian citizens?

"It's just a game" was true before today's horrific revelations and it will be true after today's horrific revelations. There are things way more important than footy, and the trauma (allegedly) inflicted on those Hawthorn players is a shining example of this. However, surely we can all recognise that just because you care about the game itself and enjoy it and are interested in it, doesn't mean you don't also acknowledge that on the macro level combating racism is self-evidently of bigger social and moral concern than who wins a game of footy.