List Mgmt. Official 2016 trade period discussion

[00VicWard001]

Before the trades started I thought the common thread was that we needed a bit of pace off half back, and another option up forward to help out Hawkins. In Tuohy & Black that's what is being tried. Time will tell but potentially the right fix at both ends of the ground.

So we lost Vardy - 7 years for 25 games, never more than "potential". Kersten - couldn't step up in big games, was given every chance to claim a spot. Smedts - showed an enormous amount in his first two years, never got back to that form after his first big injury. Not best 22.

Caddy - I didn't want to lose him, but not heart broken. The most disappointing thing about Caddy was when week in and week out Selwood was having the living suitcase belted out of him- who was looking after his back? Not the "Bull". Fyfe won a brownlow because his mates protected him, Selwood got nothing and Caddy was the most likely but wasn't there. And he just seems to have stagnated as a player.

Sorry, I just can't join in the vitriol against Wells and the team. They are working within salary cap issues that we guess at, but actually don't know who is on what, and what ability we have to move.

Delidio - may have been good, but i tend to the view that taking on an aged player who started to break down this year was a risk we didn't need to rush in to.

On paper we have a good team. Blitz, Duncan & Motlop need to step up. Smith will get better with more games and age. Stanley is a worry - his best is fantastic, it just isn't seen often enough. The game plan needs to change to meet the challenge of GWS, Dogs & Sydney. Challenging days ahead.

Being a fan/supporter means that we live a purely subjective experience. Our only engagement with the club and team is emotional and it only really occurs in its purest sense during the game.

Being a employee of the club (whether player, coach, list manager or administrator) means that the game itself is just one part of the whole experience. There is more information and objectivity when it is your job.

A fan might cry and rail and say "why oh why did xxx club trade zzzz player, they were vital".

But a club sees so much more.

Sam Mitchell, Josh Caddy, Brett Deledio, Patrick Dangerfield, Bryce Gibbs made choices to leave based on their overall experience of football and motivations - including winning, lifestyle, money, unhappiness etc.

List Managers let them go because they are objective and have access to an unfathomable amount of data.

Letting Caddy go for pick 24 might seem like a monumental error, but really we don't know. We do know that Wells is highly paid, experienced, and capable.

We have some idea that not only does he undertake trading for this period, but he also scouts, forecasts future trades and drafting, understands and has a part in formulating the list/game strategy and designs the salary structure to create rolling windows of experience/form/ideal ages to make premierships attacks.

This is complicated by finite funding, player development, form, draft picks, relationships, location.

I guess what I'm trying to point out, is that supporters get angry or happy based on the tidbits we see from the club or the games and performances we see and We read into these and get emotional as it is our 100%/complete/absolute experience.

The Media know only slightly more than supporters, as clubs guard their IP significantly for competitive advantages.

The club ultimately knows what it is doing and what it wants to do. There is no possible way that the salary cap was stuffed up, or that we lost a player due to incompetence. We may have lost a best 22 player simply because the ground shifted and Wells and his team adapted to it and fit it into their planning.

Either way, there are picks and players that Wells is already planning for for the five years. There are contracts that were given and timed to meet the AFL requirements and the utilise the cap - knowing that they will end at a certain time leaving us free to attract and engage players that assist our rolling window of competitiveness. A specific group that Wells would be looking at over the next two years has got to be GWS and GC. And no doubt second round picks will be enough to grab some of them. Then there are the free agents that will be floating around.

Anyway, it's all interesting and the situation will amount to something and all of us will be slightly or greatly surprised. Menegola is the perfect example of this.

Enjoy your day.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

I come in peace. What's the status on Rhys Stanley? Do you expect him to re-sign or will he be a DFA?

 

[LawnMosey]

That's all well and good but it relevance to what transpired yesterday is tenuous at best. You can still promote a positive work culture AND not allow yourself to be steamrolled by your competitors.

First things first: I'm as frustrated as anyone that Caddy's gone.

But one of the fundamental points of my post was that it matters little to the great organisation what their competitors do. A truly great organisation will happily move a star performer that doesn't fit with the company's mission to a competitor for little compensation, because the true value in the transaction is that the great company doesn't have that person in it any more. It sounds harsh, but if their priorities are not the same as the companies, they don't belong.

Outsiders (re: the media in this case) may see it as a massive coup for the competitor (Richmond in this case), and the competitor can sing about it to their hearts content, because the great organisation is getting on with the business of achieving their mission with one less non-vital piece.

 

[dazbroncos]

How exactly did they mistreat a player who jumped to another merely for the purpose of filling his pockets?

In the media interviews Caddy has given he certainly has not eluded to or spoken about GFC like one that was shafted, jaded or treated poorly by GFC

At least what ive seen thus far.

Go Catters

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

my recollection is that he didn't stand up when it really mattered

I have seen Kersten live 3 times. Let me suggest if there was a medal for bruise free footy he'd coast it in.
Master at short steps leading into a contest so he never has to put his head over it - not one to have in the trenches with you I'd suggest.

 

[year of the cat]

How exactly did they mistreat a player who jumped to another merely for the purpose of filling his pockets?

By not immediately ruling out his movement out of the club as a means of bringing Deledio in. Words like, "we're waiting to gauge Josh's interest in moving" or "It's up to Josh" hardly represents what you'd like to hear from a club that wants to retain you does it? You surely can't be critical of Caddy for moving? The guy had just purchased a house in Geelong for god's sake. Hardly the actions of someone who was entertaining a move out of our club prior to the trade period.

 

[dazbroncos]

I come in peace. What's the status on Rhys Stanley? Do you expect him to re-sign or will he be a DFA?

The expectation is that he will re-sign with us. He will not be DFA that is for sure.

His GF has just moved to Geelong ( not that that counts for much.. Caddy bought a ****ing house and left 3 weeks later)

GFC has been inexplicably tight in the SC and now that the trade period is over, there is better clarity as to what funds can go where and to whom.

The expectation is that several OOC players, like Stanley, Cowan, etc will get contracts sorted shortly.

GO Catters

 

[year of the cat]

First things first: I'm as frustrated as anyone that Caddy's gone.

But one of the fundamental points of my post was that it matters little to the great organisation what their competitors do. A truly great organisation will happily move a star performer that doesn't fit with the company's mission to a competitor for little compensation, because the true value in the transaction is that the great company doesn't have that person in it any more. It sounds harsh, but if their priorities are not the same as the companies, they don't belong.

Outsiders (re: the media in this case) may see it as a massive coup for the competitor (Richmond in this case), and the competitor can sing about it to their hearts content, because the great organisation is getting on with the business of achieving their mission with one less non-vital piece.

Is there any evidence that Caddy "doesn't fit in with the company's mission"?

 

[LawnMosey]

With respect that last paragraph is rubbish. Caddy's commitment only wavered after the club's loyalty to him wavered. You surely can't be critical of his attitude?

How the club treated Caddy in the past week flies in the face of everything you say a successful company should stand for. One that values its "staff". And indeed it's contradictory to your first paragraph where you even state that "the person should always be more valuable than the pick".

My understanding of the situation was this:

• Deledio wanted Geelong
• Geelong said "ooh, um, not sure how we can do that. We'll look into it"
• Geelong went to Richmond and said "what about Deledio"
• Richmond said "we don't want to lose him, but it'll take a first rounder to get him"
• Geelong said "no"
• Geelong said "how about Mots (we'd need something back)"
• Richmond said "no"
• Geelong said "how about a second rounder"
• Richmond said "no"
• richmond said "how about Caddy"
• Geelong said "no"
  
• Geelong then went to Caddy and said "we want to keep you, but Richmond want you, but just to be clear, we want to keep you and we're only telling you this because we don't want to talk about you behind your back"
• Caddy said "meh, I'm easy"
• Geelong went back to Richmond and said "so, yeah, that second rounder"
• Richmond said "get stuffed, don't call again"
• Richmond called Caddy and said "more money and more midfield time?"
• Caddy said "...keep talking"
• Caddy went to Geelong and said "Richmond?"
• Geelong said "shit"
• Geelong said "ok then"

 

[LawnMosey]

Is there any evidence that Caddy "doesn't fit in with the company's mission"?

When he decided he wanted to go to Richmond to play for them... (see my other post for my understanding of the whole situation).

 

[year of the cat]

My understanding of the situation was this:

• Deledio wanted Geelong
• Geelong said "ooh, um, not sure how we can do that. We'll look into it"
• Geelong went to Richmond and said "what about Deledio"
• Richmond said "we don't want to lose him, but it'll take a first rounder to get him"
• Geelong said "no"
• Geelong said "how about Mots (we'd need something back)"
• Richmond said "no"
• Geelong said "how about a second rounder"
• Richmond said "no"
• richmond said "how about Caddy"
• Geelong said "no"
  
• Geelong then went to Caddy and said "we want to keep you, but Richmond want you, but just to be clear, we want to keep you and we're only telling you this because we don't want to talk about you behind your back"
• Caddy said "meh, I'm easy"
• Geelong went back to Richmond and said "so, yeah, that second rounder"
• Richmond said "get stuffed, don't call again"
• Richmond called Caddy and said "more money and more midfield time?"
• Caddy said "...keep talking"
• Caddy went to Geelong and said "Richmond?"
• Geelong said "shit"
• Geelong said "ok then"

That is a possible scenario. But Geelong should have been far more forthright in telling both Richmond and Caddy that he wasn't on the table. He was under contract!! And even after Caddy decided he wanted out, to only come away with pick 24 is ludicrous. Again, he was under contract - I'm quite sure he would have happily walked back into the club and resumed training having just bought a place in Geelong and moved on OR get their pick 15 off them. Tell Richmond - "you want him? He's under contract - he will only be moving IF we get your first rounder, pick 15. Take it or leave it". I bet they would have rolled over. And even if they didn't we still get Caddy back.

 

[hbk_aus]

That is a possible scenario. But Geelong should have been far more forthright in telling both Richmond and Caddy that he wasn't on the table. He was under contract!! And even after Caddy decided he wanted out, to only come away with pick 24 is ludicrous. Again, he was under contract - I'm quite sure he would have happily walked back into the club and resumed training having just bought a place in Geelong and moved on OR get their pick 15 off them. Tell Richmond - "you want him? He's under contract - he will only be moving IF we get your first rounder, pick 15. Take it or leave it". I bet they would have rolled over. And even if they didn't we still get Caddy back.

Exactly my take on it. Yeah they should be obliged to let Caddy/his manager aware that Richmond had asked about him. But there is no obligation to do a deal if he is under contract. The only reason for this trade has to be salary cap issues which if so, is poor list management. They have chosen Tuohy and Black to fill needs which is fair enough, but have had to push somebody out to balance the books. And Caddy, whilst being a decent player, was expendable as we have a few similar type players. Still a shit result though.

 

[year of the cat]

When he decided he wanted to go to Richmond to play for them... (see my other post for my understanding of the whole situation).

That's taking corporate speak to the nth degree. By that reckoning, any staff member that expresses a grievance and wants out should be just shown the door regardless of their value to the company, even if there is a good chance of resolving their issue through some time and nurturing.

 

[LawnMosey]

That is a possible scenario. But Geelong should have been far more forthright in telling both Richmond and Caddy that he wasn't on the table. He was under contract!! And even after Caddy decided he wanted out, to only come away with pick 24 is ludicrous. Again, he was under contract - I'm quite sure he would have happily walked back into the club and resumed training having just bought a place in Geelong and moved on OR get their pick 15 off them. Tell Richmond - "you want him? He's under contract - he will only be moving IF we get your first rounder, pick 15. Take it or leave it". I bet they would have rolled over. And even if they didn't we still get Caddy back.

If that was the scenario though (not sure that it was, just my reading based on media reports), then Caddy's out. He doesn't have a single minded drive to help Geelong win premierships, his focus is on improving himself at the expense of the club. Not a dastardly thing by any stretch, but from the club's perspective, they can't rely on him to push with them towards a common goal because a part of him is pushing in another direction.

Look, this is all idealistic, I understand that, and like I said, I'm pissed Caddy's gone and pissed we only got a second round pick for him. I'm just here for an excuse to put some of my thoughts out there and see what comes back. Appreciate your input, and I share your frustration, but as I see it, I have no choice but to move on, and that's easier if I can see a rational reason for the club to act as it did. I can, so on I move.

 

[year of the cat]

If that was the scenario though (not sure that it was, just my reading based on media reports), then Caddy's out. He doesn't have a single minded drive to help Geelong win premierships, his focus is on improving himself at the expense of the club. Not a dastardly thing by any stretch, but from the club's perspective, they can't rely on him to push with them towards a common goal because a part of him is pushing in another direction.

Look, this is all idealistic, I understand that, and like I said, I'm pissed Caddy's gone and pissed we only got a second round pick for him. I'm just here for an excuse to put some of my thoughts out there and see what comes back. Appreciate your input, and I share your frustration, but as I see it, I have no choice but to move on, and that's easier if I can see a rational reason for the club to act as it did. I can, so on I move.

I prefer to wallow for a bit longer

 

[Willo_]

I'd rather give more inside mid minutes to Lang and Cockatoo

also what's with the name change, we already have a million cats around here

You should try doing a podcast and realising both the people you have on are Catsomething...

Massive rookie error

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

Wells has said they did not go to Caddy but that Caddy and his management went to Richmond.
There were a couple of interviews yesterday that changed my view of the circumstances and situation. Unlike what was reported Wells said the club didn't approach Caddy and it was not related to the Deledio trade. Caddy got an offer from Tigers and wanted to move for better opportunity, more money and play with Prestia.

To be honest the whole thing doesn't paint Caddy in the greatest light. He's 24 and at his third club, he wanted to leave Gold Coast to come back home to Victoria. Then 4 years later he's presented with another offer and off he leaves again.

Still disappointing to lose him but in the light of day it's not the end of the world. Hawks got 23 for Hill and is Caddy a much better player than Hill? He could be but time will tell and most likely he won't now he's at Richmond rather than Geelong. As the development gap between the clubs is massive.

 

[00VicWard001]

By not immediately ruling out his movement out of the club as a means of bringing Deledio in. Words like, "we're waiting to gauge Josh's interest in moving" or "It's up to Josh" hardly represents what you'd like to hear from a club that wants to retain you does it? You surely can't be critical of Caddy for moving? The guy had just purchased a house in Geelong for god's sake. Hardly the actions of someone who was entertaining a move out of our club prior to the trade period.

Yeah, but players think for themselves. They are not all going to be enticed by seeing the club win in a premiership as single-mindedly as fans are. They have other motivations. Money and other forms of self-value play a big part.

Caddy might have been enticed by the cash, the fact that he'd be a star in Richmond, that he'd be even closer to home, he'd play with his mate Prestia. That might be far more valuable to him than it would be for Joel Selwood or Patrick Dangerfield who may rather play for GFC as their priority.

 

[00VicWard001]

Wells has said they did not go to Caddy but that Caddy and his management went to Richmond.
There were a couple of interviews yesterday that changed my view of the circumstances and situation. Unlike what was reported Wells said the club didn't approach Caddy and it was not related to the Deledio trade. Caddy got an offer from Tigers and wanted to move for better opportunity, more money and play with Prestia.

To be honest the whole thing doesn't paint Caddy in the greatest light. He's 24 and at his third club, he wanted to leave Gold Coast to come back home to Victoria. Then 4 years later he's presented with another offer and off he leaves again.

Still disappointing to lose him but in the light of day it's not the end of the world. Hawks got 23 for Hill and is Caddy a much better player than Hill? He could be but time will tell and most likely he won't now he's at Richmond rather than Geelong. As the development gap between the clubs is massive.

Hill had far more of an influence on games than Caddy.

The trade that I think about when I think about what is comparable is the Tom Mitchell trade. He went for 14. Now, ask any club, is he going to have more impact than Caddy? Yes. So is Caddy close to 14? Not really. He's more around the 20-25 mark.

 

[Lana]

Only if the market pays that price, if clubs stop offering them 1st rounders all the time then their monopoly on the draft will end

You should try doing a podcast and realising both the people you have on are Catsomething...

Massive rookie error

That's easy either just take the cat out of their names. Or/and add different prefixes their names like Sir or Mr

So CatsThunder becomes Sir Thunder and CatKingdom becomes Mr kingdom

 

[year of the cat]

Yeah, but players think for themselves. They are not all going to be enticed by seeing the club win in a premiership as single-mindedly as fans are. They have other motivations. Money and other forms of self-value play a big part.

Caddy might have been enticed by the cash, the fact that he'd be a star in Richmond, that he'd be even closer to home, he'd play with his mate Prestia. That might be far more valuable to him than it would be for Joel Selwood or Patrick Dangerfield who may rather play for GFC as their priority.

There's two issues at play here. One is allowing Caddy to be traded. The second is the result of the trade. In simple terms even I could accept the first if we had done well with the second. But we buggered up the second which means I'm pissed with the whole thing!!

 

[BUSTER29]

My understanding of the situation was this:

• Deledio wanted Geelong
• Geelong said "ooh, um, not sure how we can do that. We'll look into it"
• Geelong went to Richmond and said "what about Deledio"
• Richmond said "we don't want to lose him, but it'll take a first rounder to get him"
• Geelong said "no"
• Geelong said "how about Mots (we'd need something back)"
• Richmond said "no"
• Geelong said "how about a second rounder"
• Richmond said "no"
• richmond said "how about Caddy"
• Geelong said "no"
  
• Geelong then went to Caddy and said "we want to keep you, but Richmond want you, but just to be clear, we want to keep you and we're only telling you this because we don't want to talk about you behind your back"
• Caddy said "meh, I'm easy"
• Geelong went back to Richmond and said "so, yeah, that second rounder"
• Richmond said "get stuffed, don't call again"
• Richmond called Caddy and said "more money and more midfield time?"
• Caddy said "...keep talking"
• Caddy went to Geelong and said "Richmond?"
• Geelong said "shit"
• Geelong said "ok then"

And still,no one held a gun to the clubs head and made us sign him over.
Contracted player at the Cats, going nowhere.

 

[Willo_]

That's easy either just take the cat out of their names. Or/and add different prefixes their names like Sir or Mr

So CatsThunder becomes Sir Thunder and CatKingdom becomes Mr kingdom

Ohh I like that

 

[Grimoz]

Wouldn't mind picking up Barlow. Big body mid to replace Caddy still averaging 24.5 disposals and 6 tackles a game and can kick a goals. Looking like he'll be de-listed so cheap pick up.

Barlow would be an ok pickup as he is only 28 (29 by next season) but he reminds me too much of GHS as far as speed goes and also has buggered shoulders ala Billie Smedts, would only be a depth player and would want to be really really really cheap, like Aaron Black cheap.

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

Barlow would be an ok pickup as he is only 28 (29 by next season) but he reminds me too much of GHS as far as speed goes and also has buggered shoulders ala Billie Smedts, would only be a depth player and would want to be really really really cheap, like Aaron Black cheap.

I'll be very surprised if Barlow doesn't get picked up by someone. But with Menegola and Scooter not sure it can be us.
They are all similar players and Barlow is the oldest of them. He'd want to get to a club where he is playing every week.