Review R17: The Good, Bad and Ugly vs. Brisbane Lions

[Gtowncrow]

If Smith has 3-4 "good" years left (good defined as last few years' output) we're ****ed

Nah... just think of his trade value at years end.

 

[Scorpus]

Trouble is you used stats to refute my argument, I then used those same stats to rebut and so you backtrack and use what Nicks has done as your fall back. This is the same Nicks you are criticizing in the same breath for picking Smith in the first place. Which is it? Is he right for picking him or for dropping him. Seriously, has there ever been a club great who is still averaging 20 posies off half back at 32 been the subject of so much ridiculous supporter crap.

Playing Smith has not caused us any loses this year, and has probably helped the development of Nankervis and Michalaney no end. It’s like saying North playing Ziebell for the last 2 years was a mistake. You can never know what good he did in the development of all their kids.

I've done no backtracking at all. The stats clearly show he's declined in the areas I first described, and you've brought up no other evidence aside from basic stuff like his disposal count, which was never the criticism in the first place

Nicks was years too late to dropping Smith. He finally did it this year because his performances regressed so far that even his stubborn experience protection racket couldn't ignore it any longer

But of course there's been no drop off because he still gets 20 disposals on the stat sheet or something

 

[Hodgy]

I've done no backtracking at all. The stats clearly show he's declined in the areas I first described, and you've brought up no other evidence aside from basic stuff like his disposal count, which was never the criticism in the first place

Nicks was years too late to dropping Smith. He finally did it this year because his performances regressed so far that even his stubborn experience protection racket couldn't ignore it any longer

But of course there's been no drop off because he still gets 20 disposals on the stat sheet or something

Sigh. Nothing on the stats you embedded showed any drop off for Smith last year against his career average, period. If you’ve got anything except “but he’s old and and don’t like old players” then great, but honestly at this stage you just sound like a kid yelling that every coach in existence plays old guys because they hate youth.

I would remind you we are talking about a club great who has averaged 20 touches off half back and is only playing in his 32nd year.

 

[CrowBloke]

Everywhere else on the ground we won today.

Yeah/nah.
For starters, Murphy was putrid until he was assigned to blanket Neale.
Butts had 3K, 3H, 3M. Nothing else; ZERO tackles. Is that a win?
Fogarty was beaten all day until his 2 late goals, too late, in the last. Not a win.
Rachele had a very ordinary day.
Hinge was ineffective until injured.
The skill errors today, the ootf, the kicks under no pressure to Lions players, the handballs that missed targets ALL contributed to the loss, not to mention Nicks' game day ineptitude.

We legitimately had 18 players who played their hearts out against last years grand finalists at their home deck and we nearly won and can hold their heads high.

Nearly-wins are losses and the Crows have had many, too many.
"Our worst loss is 'only' 42 points", they say --- still another loss. Aren't you sick of this losing Coach and his losing ways? It's not his second or third year.

Laird and Rachele looked disinterested for most of the game; their defensive efforts were poor.
Did Fogarty and Butts "play their hearts out", ya reckon?
You sound like Nicks:"they tried so hard".

Forget about "last year's Grand Finalists". That's 10 months ago. Brisbane are not the same team, nor playing as well. They played disjointed, inconsistent footy tonight and messed up a lot of forward entries. Lucky for them, the Crows played worse.

"Played their hearts out"? "Can hold their heads high"?
They LOST and fell further on the Ladder.

We are losing pure and simple because we haven’t drafted even close to a reasonable level with out first rounds for 12 years and we haven’t addressed the midfield in that time.

That's it? That's why we are losing, "pure and simple"?
Poor recruiting ==> poor midfield, so we lose?
While the recruiting has been a contributor, that's such an oversimplification.

Everything else is smoke, we simply don’t have the same level of A grade mids that every other team has, and that’s on our recruiting.

What about our Head Coach, his deplorable W-L record and his bewildering selections, senior favoritism and strategic incompetence and non-reactive game-change cluelessness, his persistence in playing Murphy and his idiocy in proclaiming over-the-hill Smith as "a big part of our future"??
How about his assistants?
Have they contributed in any way to our losses?
On a player level, how about our lead ruckman who cannot kick, rarely marks or taps to our mids (last week an exception, no, let's call that an aberration)? Or the general fumbly, hesitant, panicky rubbish that they serve up much more often than not?

Hodgy, I don't know you and you may well be a great bloke and wonderful family man.
Mate --- we are 15th on the Ladder, after 16 games, with zero chance of making Finals.
AGAIN!!
2024 is gone, in fact it was set up to fail by Nicks' defensive emphasis in the off-season and the 0-4 start.

I am not attacking you, I promise, but singling out only one factor (sh1t recruiting ==> poor midfield) as the reason why we're losing is just ... looking for the right word/s ... oversimplified nonsense.

 

[GreyCrow]

Look, just face it. THERE IS NO PRESSURE ON NICKS. They just signed him for two years! Unless we get flogged by 10+ goals every single week until the end of the season, Nicks will STILL be our coach next year.

I do agree that this is most likely

This carry on you all are bleating is useless. The team is there and there abouts. Not good enough to beat a rampant Lions team on their home turf, but only lose by less than two goals. This is NOT a sackable offence.

34% winning record is though

In the mean time, don’t waste your twisted knickers on something that just ain’t happening.

I would argue the bleating is working. If our noise doesnt impact why did they sign him to shut the noise down?

 

[cmndstab]

I don’t disagree with this, and I certainly aren’t lauding Nicks in picking this side, far from it. I’m just saying that the list that has been put together by Reid and Hamish is so poor that I don’t think anyone could seriously judge Nickas as a Coach. And if I was him I would be picking Walker and Smith also.

And no one could honestly say Dowling and Nankervis were ready before they were picked, and Taylor spent last year injured. He has given Cook a great run considering his output at both levels if your fair.

I would say that both Dowling and Nankervis were ready before they were picked. Dowling could have played at any stage this year, instead of waiting until round 13. Nankervis could have played at any stage last year, instead of waiting until round 19. The two of them could easily have another ten games under their belts each by now.

Taylor I will grant given how far back he was fitness-wise and the injury last year. It would be nice if we gave the kid a chance to play more than 30 minutes a week though. It's hard to make a serious judgement on whether he has the fitness to play AFL football when he spends the best part of two hours warming the bench each week.

Until this year, Cook has been in and out of the side like a yoyo - or more often, just not selected at all. I agree Cook has been a bit disappointing so far, but what is the point in leaving him in the SANFL now? He's either going to make it or he's not, we may as well find out which one it is by playing him in the seniors side.

 

[CrowBloke]

at least wait for him to have a bad game before teeing off.

Oh, what?
Smith has had several in the last 2 years. How many bad games will be enough for you?

That's why he apologised publicly for playing badly earlier this year.
It's also why he was dropped.

Smith has been an elite player and a Club great, but his time is up .

 

[GreyCrow]

Do kickouts count in disposal amounts?

 

[daniel_4tw]

Good:

• We’re below Saints and can now avoid the bullshit Rd 1 compo they’re going to get for their spud.
• Season done, for real. We can drop Laird, Smith, and start playing the kids.

Bad:
- We won’t

Ugly:
- Umpiring. If that’s ’the best’ it’s ever been, there needs to be a vote of no confidence in Dillon.

 

[PeterSalt]

Do kickouts count in disposal amounts?

if they play on out of the goal square, yes

 

[GreyCrow]

Some would suggest players stats are padded then

 

[feenix67]

Sigh. Nothing on the stats you embedded showed any drop off for Smith last year against his career average, period. If you’ve got anything except “but he’s old and and don’t like old players” then great, but honestly at this stage you just sound like a kid yelling that every coach in existence plays old guys because they hate youth.

I would remind you we are talking about a club great who has averaged 20 touches off half back and is only playing in his 32nd year.

Except the comparison wasn't against career average, it was against his 2016 numbers. Stop trolling idiot.

 

[feenix67]

Do kickouts count in disposal amounts?

Yes but don't tell Hodgy he's too busy digging.

PS they didn't count before the kickout rule changed, unless the kicker did the old kick to himself thing.

 

[Danger in Texas]

Very good: Keays

Feel like the general image of him and his below average disposal (which has honestly improved this year) has affected what our supporters’ expectations are of him

Has gone through some rough patches this year for sure, but he deserves to be considered a worthwhile part of our forward line, going forward. He’s an actual pressure forward that can impact the scoreboard, unlike Murphy/McHenry

 

[TryAnHit]

Nicks has turned Dawson who looked like could be one of the top 5 players in the league into nothing with his drop of cba

 

[AFC979810]

Very good: Keays

Feel like the general image of him and his below average disposal (which has honestly improved this year) has affected what our supporters’ expectations are of him

Has gone through some rough patches this year for sure, but he deserves to be considered a worthwhile part of our forward line, going forward. He’s an actual pressure forward that can impact the scoreboard, unlike Murphy/McHenry

Perfect role player.

Has lots of versatility, can kick goals, can shut down rebounding defenders.

Has been a real credit to him to play that role and be moved from the midfield.

 

[kirky]

Getting real sick of how selfish Laird is, he's a senior player who's never held a leadership position and constantly yelling at younger player for not giving him the ball when he's one of the worst kicks in the team.

Can not understand why he wouldn't put his hand up to tag Neale (the best player in the game) and sacrifice his game for the good of the team because he has elite fitness and good at tackling, instead a young kid and then Murphy.

After the first 10 possession and 2 goals wouldn't you as player think hey maybe I'll take one for the team here and match up on Neale?

I’m telling you, all Laird is interested in is getting a 4th B & F. One up on McLeod, Roo and Goodwin.

He is very adapt at the 1-2 - easy way to double ones possessions.

 

[kirky]

I’m sorry, are you serious with that statement?
Are you implying that Jarrod Berry played crap because Neale was excellent?
Nankervis was good too. Maybe we should blame him for Hinges game.

BTW I have absolutely no idea why Hinge was subbed out as he wasn’t in our worst 8, but Smith and Hinge play very different games and Smith is only 32 years old. He probably has 3 to 4 good years in him so Hinge maybe needs to learn how to “play well” when Smith is also playing well.

FFS, Smith another 3-4 years!

Not likely and he is no Pendlebury who is still going around as a 36yo.

 

[Mostyn]

FFS, Smith another 3-4 years!

Not likely and he is no Pendlebury who is still going around as a 36yo.

I like that Hodgy is arguing against the safe groupthink that you see on this board, but 3 to 4 years is insane.

And I'm pretty sure it's herd mentality (as in herd of animals), not heard mentality (as in I heard something mental).

 

[kirky]

This has been explained and it’s been explained.

This club does not make change unless it’s forced which is by poor results. We weren’t ever going to win that game even if the margin was close. It was a typical Crows performance under Nicks, get behind, be gallant in defeat. So that close loss is pointless.

If posters have that opinion it’s not up to you to decide how we support. The ultimate aim is a flag, if there’s pain along the way so be it, what we’ve been doing hasn’t worked.

Whenever we got close enough, Brisbane would move up a gear and kick a couple of goals.

You need to be very careful with these games but Nicks will see it as another gallant performance. 5 years into his coaching and we still put up gallant performances. **** me!
,

 

[kirky]

We have easily the least experienced players in our side in the comp, only 2 really and it clearly costs us in close games. Your exclamation that other sides vets are good but ours aren’t, despite the stats showing clearly the opposite, is the perfect example of group mentality really.

BTW It was Nankervis that did that kick, but don’t let facts get in the way of your rant, sounds better to accuse Smith obviously.

And the word is heard.

No, no, no, the word is “herd”.

Jesus!

 

[119others]

Going by your stats.

DE% ‘23 - 76.8% Vs carer 75.2%
R50’s ‘23 - 4.9 Vs carer 4.1
I50’s ‘23 - 3.5 Vs career 3.3
Kicking ‘23 - 73.7% Vs career 70%
Meters gained ‘23 - 518 Vs career 488

And you’re accusing me of trolling. I see you had to go back 14 years to find a better 1st rounder, but sorry he left. Smith didn’t. Danger, Smith, Lever and Davis are our only real successes in the 1st round, and only 1 played his whole career here. QED.

The herd won’t like these facts. Expect the normal crew to use their default negative emojis.

Smiths last few years have been absolutely fine - 5th and 7th in B&F. That said, this year there has been a regression and it isn’t unreasonable to question his role in the team IMO. But with Milera out, Parnell as a small defender out and Ryan building to a debut I can also see how one of our very few experienced players has been getting a regular gig. 5-6 players the other week over 100 games is crazy inexperience. But Nicks comments re Smith being a big part of our future do seem off the mark. He may have one year left in the team - at best,

Personally after Jones best half year in 2023, I would play him as the tight checking hard at it HBF. He took down Shai Bolton in that role a year or 2 ago and in his horrid form this year I think he is the logical choice to try HBF. Also feel Milera had a good year last year and is being missed along with many of our other injuries we all know about

 

[119others]

Whenever we got close enough, Brisbane would move up a gear and kick a couple of goals.

You need to be very careful with these games but Nicks will see it as another gallant performance. 5 years into his coaching and we still put up gallant performances. **** me!
,

At the game we never really looked like winning but played some decent footy and kept in touch despite being out classed. We were royally screwed by the umps though as I am sure others would have commented on. Anyone saying let Keane go - esp cheaply - needs to reconsider as seemed clearly our best reader of the play, athletic and creative KPD.

I hope we bring in Curtin and Ryan for the remainder of the year and build towards 2025. Finish 15th and either take Draper or similar quality mid.

The real issue - I quietly raised with Silvers y/day - is the lack of elite non SA boys willing to move to ADL. An insurmountable structural disadvantage

 

[FullyBigKPro]

If this game doesn't demonstrate why we need to use our pick 4 on a gun generational midfielder this year, then I don't know what will...

 

[relapse]

Going by your stats.

DE% ‘23 - 76.8% Vs carer 75.2%
R50’s ‘23 - 4.9 Vs carer 4.1
I50’s ‘23 - 3.5 Vs career 3.3
Kicking ‘23 - 73.7% Vs career 70%
Meters gained ‘23 - 518 Vs career 488

And you’re accusing me of trolling. I see you had to go back 14 years to find a better 1st rounder, but sorry he left. Smith didn’t. Danger, Smith, Lever and Davis are our only real successes in the 1st round, and only 1 played his whole career here. QED.

The only problem with your stats argument with a player like Brodie Smith is that since 2019 kick ins after a point are counted as a stat.

Given that he is one of our main players in terms of our kick ins there's most probably about 6 or 7 bonus possessions a game that he's getting compared to his pre 2019 stats.

If you were to go through the games and take his kick in stats from his numbers and compare it to his stats prior to his knee injury it's a huge drop off.