Autopsy Round 2 Carlton vs West Coast Post Match Discussion

[Wickzki]

Our recruiting and development have been a shambles long before MM took over, the problem was already seeded. Can't blame Mick for that. Really, it wouldn't have mattered what coach we brought in, the damage was already done.

Though I will say I was highly critical of bringing in Thomas with his bad ankle and huge pay packet.

Look at the comments that he made in regards to the list last night. Then consider the players that he helped to decide to trade out or leave via free agency (e.g. Betts). He is very willing to offer his critique but is he willing to admit to his responsibility of it? He's had three years now. The first year he had his hands tied. The last two not so much. Where is the progress?

 

[Quazza]

I believe it was played in a free wheeling spirit.

oh, phew! That's ok then....

 

[DaVillaBlues]

Am I reading this right? Our our reserve MENS team is beating an under 18 boys team, by 9 points?

When you say it like that, it doesn't sound so great, but I am desperate to cling to any crumb of hope/positivity

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Well intentioned apologists for sexism like yourself mostly do more harm than good. Sexist men kick and scream and talk about "biological shortcomings" - whatever the hell that means - and try to shutdown what they protest are "overly PC" people - usually posters who are advocates for equal rights and gender equality."

I could just as easily argue that 'well intentioned sexism alarmists like yourself' (since we're handing out labels) do more than harm than good. When you treat women like absolute sacred cows who must be completely shielded from any sort of insult, however petty, do you really think that's empowering? Do you think that's treating them like an equal? Do you launch into defence mode when you hear male traits used as an insult? Holding people to different standards is the very foundation of inequality.
I didn't get offended by the comment because I don't think women are so fragile that they can't handle a crack about being physically weaker than men. They're not basket cases. Did his 'female' comment need to be said? No. Could he have used a better comparison? Yes. Should anything negative pertaining to women be absolutely taboo in conversation? Absolutely not.
I read his comment as a throwaway crack about Murphy being physically weak. Maybe that's what it was, maybe it wasn't. But if anyone read further into it and turned it into some grand statement and a sexist attack on poor, helpless women then maybe they should stop and consider what they themselves really think of women deep down.

This is how healthy social change is stifled. Accusations of people being overly sensitive, overly pc, lefties etc mostly come from people - often men - who feel they are losing rights they never actually had."

Actually social change is often stifled by this growing need to attack and shame anyone who dares say something that doesn't fit the narrative. It's not conducive to progressive thinking and polarises the issue. It's also often used as an opportunity for the attacker to score points for themselves while leaving the other person angry, resentful, and even less inclined to change their thinking than they were before. I've never seen this approach as helpful.
People could have just as easily PM'd the guy and asked him to take it easy with the sexist comments. He'd have been far more likely to take it on board, and the messenger would have been far more likely to have made a positive overall impact on the issue.

But of course, you can't get 'likes' with a PM, can you?

So yes I will call it out, no I don't care that my post may be deleted - although to her credit Aphrodite allowed last night's discussion to continue, as ugly and pointless as it often became.

No comment should be deleted, ever. Free speech is an ugly thing by nature, and I really like it. In fact I'm probably the most insufferable free-speecher on here.

Women don't need to be saved by the likes of me and some others here who see the injustices posted. But neither do they need their physical or mental condition used as a barometer for things that men are getting wrong.

As I said before, that door swings both ways. As it should if we're aiming for true equality.

This stuff comes across as tedious, eyes roll all over the place - we just wanna talk footy! Footy is more important than social and gender justice? Hardly. I would like to think those posters who feel the need to discriminate against women in order to judge men - consciously or otherwise - would not put up with subtle racism, religious intolerance or other forms of unfair discriminatory behaviour that we as human beings have worked so hard to eradicate - maybe I'm wrong, who knows.

There's no bad place for a discussion! And I'm not saying your motives aren't just - you're obviously coming from a good place, as are others. But I think there needs to be a distinction drawn between insensitivity, and genuine sexism/racism. People have fought for a long time for those terms to carry some weight, and now that they do, they shouldn't be thrown around so lightly. They can cost people their jobs, families, reputation, etc. If you start using progress as a weapon in this fashion, then people will come to resent the cause.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Am I reading this right? Our our reserve MENS team is beating an under 18 boys team, by 9 points?

Sounds very much like the last Saturday of each Auskick year when the Dad's get to join in and have a match against the 6 year olds. I had no hesitation in taking the odd spekky and running the length of the albeit small ground to kick a goal.

 

[Wickzki]

So do people still rate David Ellard? He's just one of many that wouldn't get a game at a good club.

Back in the old days when reserves played before the seniors players like David Ellard would have been considered members favorites. Not best 22 standard but someone whose intangibles would have been admired and respected. A good honest battler whose good to have as veteran list depth during the home and away season. Wouldn't get a game in the finals (unless injuries depleted that team) but would have played half a dozen to a dozen games and been a valuable contributor in many of them.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So ... Kennedy nabbed 10 goals last night. The challenge is to guess how many rounds it will take Henderson, Jones and Casboult to get 10 goals each.

 

[blue healer]

Our recruiting and development have been a shambles long before MM took over, the problem was already seeded. Can't blame Mick for that. Really, it wouldn't have mattered what coach we brought in, the damage was already done.

Though I will say I was highly critical of bringing in Thomas with his bad ankle and huge pay packet.

I agree you cannot blame MM for what he inherited. He has done as much as humanly possible to rebuild this list but as, I've said before, we had no players of trade value to target quality. Almost back to the Pagan days where we recruit a big batch of strugglers in the hope that there is some gold in there. Think we have that in Jaksh and Doc to name at least two that will work out but wouldn't surprise if a lot of the others don't go beyond 2 years.

I don't care what anyone says but we also made an unforgiveable mistake in telling all and sundry last year that, come what may, Robbo and Jeffy were gone. Got our just deserts for that little corker by getting a shit trade for Jeffy and SFA for Robbo. For what it's worth both would have played last night and I'd back them both to give more than as many as 18 players did last night.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

So ... Kennedy nabbed 10 goals last night. The challenge is to guess how many rounds it will take Henderson, Jones and Casboult to get 10 goals each.

It's such a shame to think that if Casboult could kick, we would have THE most exciting power forward in the competition on our hands

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

So ... Kennedy nabbed 10 goals last night. The challenge is to guess how many rounds it will take Henderson, Jones and Casboult to get 10 goals each.

Take that negative shit somewhere else ODN........I am keener to know how many of our supporters will witness 10 games live over the next 3 years!!

 

[Moe B]

You rang!


#goodfanks

Oh hi, can you call Carlton and ask them if there's any job vacancies for inspirational speeches pre-game? I think you'd be perfect, just try not chewing gum while talking

 

[andrew_]

Look at the comments that he made in regards to the list last night. Then consider the players that he helped to decide to trade out or leave via free agency (e.g. Betts). He is very willing to offer his critique but is he willing to admit to his responsibility of it? He's had three years now. The first year he had his hands tied. The last two not so much. Where is the progress?

People tend to look at the usual suspects Garlett, Betts. But what about Laidler? This guy was a rock in the defense under Ratten and couldn't get a look in under MM, now he's at Sydney playing in their best 22, if that's not a prime example of being a narrow minded, out of touch coach, then I don't know what is.
Also spare me the dribble "he didn't fit into MM plans, it's his own fault he can't adapt to MM game style", he's adapted well under Longmuire hasn't he?

P.S Not attacking you Wic , I agree with you, just annoyed at people who still think this bloke has done anything but ruin us.

 

[blue healer]

So ... Kennedy nabbed 10 goals last night. The challenge is to guess how many rounds it will take Henderson, Jones and Casboult to get 10 goals each.

Not sure about Jones but history says at least half a season for the other two.

 

[blue healer]

Yep. We bossed them like schoolyard bullies.......

Hope we hit em ******* hard too.

 

[BALKAN]

Could have used Waite out there last night. Just saiyan.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Sounds very much like the last Saturday of each Auskick year when the Dad's get to join in and have a match against the 6 year olds. I had no hesitation in taking the odd spekky and running the length of the albeit small ground to kick a goal.

Little Jimmys back hasnt been the same since

 

[thylacine60]

There's no bad place for a discussion! And I'm not saying your motives aren't just - you're obviously coming from a good place, as are others. But I think there needs to be a distinction drawn between insensitivity, and genuine sexism/racism. People have fought for a long time for those terms to carry some weight, and now that they do, they shouldn't be thrown around so lightly. They can cost people their jobs, families, reputation, etc. If you start using progress as a weapon in this fashion, then people will come to resent the cause.

Well said, great post.

We would do well to consider it is not up to the insulter to judge exactly how hurt or damaging a remark or action is - rather it is up to the person who is targeted. Unfortunately too many folk think people should be able to cop this or cop that. Only those on the receiving end know the truth.

 

[thylacine60]

Could have used Waite out there last night. Just saiyan.

and Doull.....

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Little Jimmys back hasnt been the same since

I absolutely schooled Little Jimmy that day!!

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

and Doull.....

We could have had Jesus Christ out there last night and it still would not have made a ****ing difference!!

 

[blue healer]

It's such a shame to think that if Casboult could kick, we would have THE most exciting power forward in the competition on our hands

I actually think he provides an unusual mix of pure excitement and total apprehension. Not enough of that mix around nowadays.

 

[rp84]

Potential candidates for our next coach have to include Nathan Bassett and Scott Burns. I will absolutely puke if we go for a tried coach and cry if we sign an older 'big name' coach. No more big name coaches. MM is proving to be even more disastrous than Pagan if that is even possible.

How do we rebuild? We need to make some tough calls. Sadly, a few of those will be made for us (thanks C. Judd, A. Carrazzo and K. Simpson). We see if loyal servants such as Andrew Walker and Michael Jamison want to be traded. We do our best to accommodate them. We wont get very much for them but that's okay - if they want to move on then that's perfectly fine and the club earns a little bit of trust and appreciation from the AFLPA and player managers (more important than many may think). Dennis Armfield, Cam Wood, Robbie Warnock, Sam Rowe and David Ellard are all delisted. They're all fringe level plays above the age of 26.

You sit down and tell the players aged 23 (at the end of the season) to 28 (Thomas, Murphy, White, Everitt, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Curnow, Tuohy, Henderson, Casboult, Sheehan, Yarran, Jones, Tutt, Bell and Watson) and advise them that the club is honestly four or five seasons away from contending for a premiership (i.e. when their careers will be over or close to it) and that if they harbor the desires to win a premiership in the very near future then you will do your best to move them on in the trade period or restricted free agency as long as they do the right thing by the club and allow the club to get comparable or as much value as possible in the form of young (23 or under) players and/or draft picks in return.

When it comes to incoming free agency you target veteran free agents who have enjoyed a level of team success in their careers and who have the passion to lead and teach younger players. There's always a few veterans who have a desire to become some sort of coach at the AFL level after their playing career is over - similar to what GWS have done in the past. We go out and sign these types. We don't give up anything for them in the form of draft picks or whatnot. Do not trade for these types of players.

In the draft you target best available football player. It doesn't matter what position that they play in as long as at whatever picks you have they're the most talented football player. A lot of the mistakes that the recruiting department have made over the years is that they've targeted the most talented potential athlete -- many of them may have been great athletes but they're not football players. The easiest example of this was Shaun Hampson. It's so easy to pick the tantalizing athlete on the potential of "when we teach him to play AFL football watch out!" but the second that you have to teach the guy how to play the game you're screwed. That's what the Irish (and international) experiment and the rookie draft is for. If you want a tantalizing athlete who can't play the game until you teach him then sign an international prospect or rookie him - don't waste your second and third rounders on a kid. There's far too much risk. I'd rather we draft kids like Sam Docherty who are genuine footballers with arguably not as much perceived upside than an athlete.

It's going to take four or five years to become a legitimate premiership contender. There's going to be casualities. Those casualties will come in the form of players who are loyal to themselves rather than the club. An example of the type of player we'd be moving on is Troy Chaplin who left Port to join Richmond in free agency because he was so shortsighted that he never saw the longterm planning that the club had for its future. These are the type of players you appreciate for what they've done for you but will be found out as the type who aren't needle pushers in regards to team success.

What you're left with is a young and committed playing group led by veterans who already bleed for the jumper and a few that have their own long-term post-playing career futures in mind who are the right type of veteran to have at the club because what they're driven towards is something that will aide the development of the younger players on the list.

It wont happen overnight. You may lose members who demand immediate success over it. But it is the most rational way to tackle a hard rebuild and it's something that our list needs.

Cant say I disagree with anything except the time frame. Very well reasoned thoughts.

I think this team is a minimum of 5-7 years, and more likely closer to 10 years (i.e. unlikely any player on this list will play in a grand final for carlton).

I would love a great new coach. Some proper talent development and list management. I'm not sure sos is the right man for the job. I would be driving a truck load of cash to the hawks recruitment staff (again) or maybe even port adelaide's. Noone decent will come until this regime is gone (after the recent recruiting staff fiascos).

I want a young and innovative coach, absolutely.

Well done on a great post mate.

 

[Quazza]

Sounds very much like the last Saturday of each Auskick year when the Dad's get to join in and have a match against the 6 year olds. I had no hesitation in taking the odd spekky and running the length of the albeit small ground to kick a goal.

always felt bad going the "don't argue" on a 6 year old though

 

[carlton2dabone]

To all those that say that its not MM's fault, I say balderdash.

Wasnt the reason we brought him in and paid him a million bucks a season because he was the experienced master coach that was supposed to get the players to give 100% effort on the field?

MM has failed to show the players that unless they give every ounce of effort they have on the field then they well be dropped no matter how big profile the player is. MM gave Murphy the captaincy, Murphy cant inspire a bunch of rats to flee a sinking ship.

Under Ratten we has a player here or there that would squib a hard contest, but under MM it seems to be spreading to epidemic levels in the team.

Take a look at Menzel, last year he made every contest no matter how rough it was, all of a sudden this great prospect of ours has developed a tendency to squib hard contests.

Some might disagree but the first to blame for this effortless and soft culture in this team is the coach. He is the one with the power to drop high profile players to send a message to the rest of the team, YET instead of dropping the likes of Gibbs, Murphy, Jamison, Carrots, etc, MM keeps youngsters like Buckley in the reserves, a player who may not be the best footballer yet but at least gives 100% effort and puts his body on the line.

 

[blue healer]

Take that negative shit somewhere else ODN........I am keener to know how many of our supporters will witness 10 games live over the next 3 years!!

Reckon most members will pay for a lot more games than they attend after last night.

Doubt we'll get enough there to boo "the great one" this week. Might have to get the yellow pages out and look up "rent a boo".