Snoops 2016 List Management, Trade and Draft thoughts

[Snoop Dog]

Great read. To my delight and against popular opinion you have moved Howe to the fwd line again. Permanent fixture or swing man?

As a rule I love the team 'swingman' but you see a lot of blokes tried in that role and it stunts them because they dont become a specialist. I think Goldsack has been that example for us. To my mind he should have been left as a defender. I rate him highly and think he would have been much better if left there. Hence I would worry for Howe performance level if we did that to him but maybe he is the sort of player that likes / thrives on it. He seemed very keen for it early in the year. Does he have the speed for the middle of the ground....not sure so its forward or back more likely for mine.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Great read. To my delight and against popular opinion you have moved Howe to the fwd line again. Permanent fixture or swing man?

As a rule I love the team 'swingman' but you see a lot of blokes tried in that role and it stunts them because they dont become a specialist. I think Goldsack has been that example for us. To my mind he should have been left as a defender. I rate him highly and think he would have been much better if left there. Hence I would worry for Howe performance level if we did that to him but maybe he is the sort of player that likes / thrives on it. He seemed very keen for it early in the year. Does he have the speed for the middle of the ground....not sure so its forward or back more likely for mine.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Thats an awful lot of senior list changes...

It is. Who do you think will stay out of that lot?

 

[PicaBoo]

As a rule I love the team 'swingman' but you see a lot of blokes tried in that role and it stunts them because they dont become a specialist. I think Goldsack has been that example for us. To my mind he should have been left as a defender. I rate him highly and think he would have been much better if left there. Hence I would worry for Howe performance level if we did that to him but maybe he is the sort of player that likes / thrives on it. He seemed very keen for it early in the year. Does he have the speed for the middle of the ground....not sure so its forward or back more likely for mine.

Goldsack brings great tackling pressure and is hard as nails. His role in the fwd has been usurped by Wills who is our new tackling monster, relegating Goldsack to back line duties. I don't see Wills and another pure pressure player in the same fwd structure, in the longer term I am expecting Blair to make way there.

 

[robertg22]

Goldsack brings great tackling pressure and is hard as nails. His role in the fwd has been usurped by Wills who is our new tackling monster, relegating Goldsack to back line duties. I don't see Wills and another pure pressure player in the same fwd structure, in the longer term I am expecting Blair to make way there.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Goldsack played as a defensive forward on Gibson on the weekend and Wills only had the 2 tackles (compared to his huge numbers before).

 

[sr36]

A poor mans Jesse White. Jesse has certainly climbed the rankings this year! You could well be correct. The GWS key forward group is the best in the league bar maybe the Crows. Hard one to get in to and he is beating the door down.

On Stewart, I'm going totally on what I've seen at AFL, so I'm not really in a great position to judge. But from what I've seen he's a big man with ok small man skills, but few bigman skills. If he has become more physical, more dangerous in the air and is doing well at a lower level, he'd be worth consideration, because he is a good athlete with good ball skills.

 

[Prochard123]

What are you hoping for?

I think its probably fair. The club clearly like Jong. Not usual to tour them 'in season' so its a fair indicator. They may go cold on him now they think they are in running for others but Jong is a fair player. He is role player that Buckley wants and to be fair has been playing pretty good footy.

Literally anything else. A 2nd rounder would be nice but even an early 3rd rounder would be much better than Jong+sweetener as Jong literally has no value.

 

[Anzacday]

As a rule I love the team 'swingman' but you see a lot of blokes tried in that role and it stunts them because they dont become a specialist. I think Goldsack has been that example for us. To my mind he should have been left as a defender. I rate him highly and think he would have been much better if left there. Hence I would worry for Howe performance level if we did that to him but maybe he is the sort of player that likes / thrives on it. He seemed very keen for it early in the year. Does he have the speed for the middle of the ground....not sure so its forward or back more likely for mine.

Well said.
He used to be Micky O's nemesis.

 

[Anzacday]

Perhaps not coincidentally, Goldsack played as a defensive forward on Gibson on the weekend and Wills only had the 2 tackles (compared to his huge numbers before).

He was too busy annoying the crap out of Mitchell.

 

[Apex36]

Perhaps not coincidentally, Goldsack played as a defensive forward on Gibson on the weekend and Wills only had the 2 tackles (compared to his huge numbers before).

To be fair, the Hawks play an incredibly uncontested game compared to most sides, so it's not surprising his tackle numbers were down. It was really only the guys who were in the majority of stoppages, and somehow Blair, who managed to put up any meaningful tackle numbers, and even then they were slightly down on what they'd normally get.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Great read Snoop Dog
Would be shopping Marley and hopefully to Freo. Absolute liability down back.
I'm actually quite confident we can do some good work this off season. Would make a good couple years in a row of it regardless of the position we finished.

 

[robertg22]

To be fair, the Hawks play an incredibly uncontested game compared to most sides, so it's not surprising his tackle numbers were down. It was really only the guys who were in the majority of stoppages, and somehow Blair, who managed to put up any meaningful tackle numbers, and even then they were slightly down on what they'd normally get.

That's true, the tackle numbers for both sides were really low. We only had 59, had double that against WC for example.

 

[Bad Horse]

It is. Who do you think will stay out of that lot?

I think we may lose all of Brown Goldsack and Broomhead so that may lead to a reprieve for Goodyear and a better deal for Frost for example.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Hate to burst the bubble, but Kerr won't be there at pick 20, let alone 35. First rounder.

Possibly.....I follow the draft pretty closely and always amazed that 2-3 months out people are certain x player wont be there at a certain spot. With Kerr I am a bit undecided and like many in this draft because of the evenness I think he could go anywhere from 15-40. To your point I am hopeful he will be around but maybe being to optimistic. Good type for us though.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Terrific work, thanks, and much appreciated.

I note that you dont say much about Aish. He's not listed under 'What did work' - is that an oversight? Then again, he's on the interchange bench in our best 22 for 2017. I assume you are pleased with how he came on the second half of the year? I think he was, in the end, well managed by the coaches.

Grundy is also missing from your 'What did work' list. These are not criticisms Snoop, more seeking an insight into your views on the positives for the year. By season's end, I'd rate the improved form of both these guys as real positives, Grundy especially.

yeah they are oversights VP.

Was really underwhelmed with Aish early in the year and to be honest I was fast coming to the conclusion he was avoiding contact. I wasnt sure if he had been told to play outside or whether he was just not wanting it. I think we found out the reason and to Buckley's credit he seemed to manage that process well with the other coaches. I was really pleased with his acceptance of where he needed to improve from his first VFL game. I thought he really elevated in the 2nd half. He will need a big preseason and good form would think in NAB to cement his spot though as guys like Wills and Phillips were also impressive late.

Grundy....did I miss him. Sorry. Gosh that was probably the biggest win of the year. He elevated himself to a really good level and has the opportunity to become a really dominant ruckmen next year at still a reasonably young age. Thrives on spending the bulk of the time as # 1 ruck doesnt he.

 

[TradeDraft]

What are you hoping for?

I think its probably fair. The club clearly like Jong. Not usual to tour them 'in season' so its a fair indicator. They may go cold on him now they think they are in running for others but Jong is a fair player. He is role player that Buckley wants and to be fair has been playing pretty good footy.

You Hope we get more then just Jong for Cloke. I was thinking Jong and a 2nd Rounder

 

[Snoop Dog]

Fantastic Read Snoop Dog

What did you think of Aish's Turnaround from Start of the Season? and What you think of his Future?

Hey there you are.

See post above. I didnt like what I saw early but I really warmed to it in the 2nd half. He has a way to go but he has the ability to really dominate a game. He reads it well, he is happy to work both ways (a number of times he was deep in the back end helping out) but also happy to back himself forward. For him I think its an effort and intensity level. He has everything else.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Thanks for all the effort in compiling this; very interesting to read and lots of well thought out info. Love your best 2017 team, looks very competitive and the midfield/on-ball brigade looks great. The 2017 depth list looks fantastic as well, certainly can cover injuries and some of the borderline picks like Goldsack, Smith and Jong.

A couple of other thoughts:

Not sure what we'll get for Cloke but a straight swap for Lin Jong seems unders (although I've only seen him play a few times).
Hope we don't go for O'Meara, if we want an expensive gun we need to go for a CHF or CHB.
I like the idea of getting Stewart and also would love to see Marchbank in our team.
Walters for Marley would be a good deal for both clubs, happy with that.
Like many others I was disappointed when we took Sier with our 1st pick last year. He's done nothing to prove he was worth it yet but is young and has been injured. A spot on the rookie list doesn't mean the club doesn't have faith in him, just that he needs time to develop so I have no problems with this.

All in all, it points to exciting times in 2017 and beyond... although lots of us, me included, were excited at the start of 2016.

Terrific post and see it pretty much the same way.

Stewart and Marchbank would be a win wouldnt it. I was musing today if you really wanted to spin the 'wheel' and given Gubby is now in the seat he may do it you could do;

Witts for Marchbank (will need a top up / maybe a pick for Broomhead as a top up). Witts will be worth a pick 15-20 and so with a Broomhead pick of say 30 added you might be in an effective range of about 10-12 so its just in the realms)
# 25 for WHE
Williams for Walters (dont think likely though)
Cloke for Jong
Pick receive from North for Brown ontraded for Stewart.

If you couldnt / didnt want to get JOM you could achieve that possibly.

 

[Vankri]

Great read as always Snoop Dog.

I think last year you had identified particular areas of need whereas this year it seems you're chasing talent regardless of position. I would go another way, I think after this year looking at Treloar, Grundy, Aish, De Goey, Moore and hopefully Scharenberg next year in addition to the 'older' core of players we have (Pendles, Adams, Reid, Howe, Fasolo, Elliott) we have most of our top talent sorted for the short to medium term (long term needs more KPP). We need to get more pointed in our recruitment and address real areas of need, so for instance I would not go for Marchbank or Jong. Not that they aren't good players but our second tall defender role is filled by Reid (and backed up by Marsh and Frost as depth), and our mid rotations are so full we've had to play players like Greenwood and De Goey out of position.

We can break down our best 22 and depth to identify areas of need. I've put the players I had differently from your best 22 in blue, and what I feel are our areas of weakness in red. I've also broken down the mix at each line as I think it's important we get this right – at times we have gone too tall, or with too many mids, or have neglected the importance of a forward line as something else than a resting line for extra mids.

Backline (2 smalls, 2 medium, 2 talls)
Ramsay – Keeffe – Maynard
Marsh – Reid – Howe

Midfield (1 ruck, 3 core 'in-and-out' mids, 2 'outside' mids)
Grundy – Treloar – Pendlebury – Adams
Crisp – Sidebottom

Forward line (at least 1 tall, 1 ruck-forward, 1 small forward, 2 half forwards)
Broomhead – White – Fasolo
Cox – Moore – Elliott

Interchange (versatile players with least 1 that can play in defense and 1 forward)
Smith – Aish – De Goey - Varcoe

Solid depth:
Tall defenders: Brown (?), Frost
Medium defenders: Goldsack, Scharenberg, Langdon, Oxley
Small defenders: Sinclair, Williams (?)
Inside mids: Greenwood, Wills, Goodyear, C. Brown (think he's an inside mid, correct me if not)
Outside mids: ...
Ruck and ruck/forwards: Witts (?)
Half forwards: Blair, J. Daicos (think he's a half forward/mid, correct me if not)
Small and medium forwards: Crocker
Tall forwards: ...

With the players I've put in vs your 22, I was a believer in Keeffe two years ago and I'm hoping he hasn't lost too much since then. With him the the mix I think our backline starts to look like it has really strong defensive ability as well as rebounding ability. I don't disagree that Goldsack could replace Marsh in the best 22 especially as he was on fire at the end of this season but I've put in Marsh just looking at the future maybe around mid-season. Broomhead I'm hoping he doesn't leave (not as many rumours this year) and stays injury free because he could be of great help in an area of need and to me would make the best 22 even if it's by default. I think Howe was too valuable in defence to move unless we have a huge resurgence of Langdon or Scharenberg really smashing it; not only was he great at rebounding and play making from the back line, but he also defended increadibly well – he's #1 in the competition for one-on-one contests won.

When you look at this the clear areas of need are:
- More outside talent
- More forward talent, particularly if they are a ground-level small forward or a tall second forward
- Cheap back up ruck for depth if Witts goes

Based on this I don't see the point of us going after players like Lin Jong or Jaeger O'Meara (if he didn't have injury issues and wouldn't cost 2 first rounders yes because the opportunity would be too great, but that's not the case). We have too many mids as it stands, neither should we go for Marchbank or Tomlinson (if we consider Tomlinson a second tall defender).

However when you listed Walters I thought you were going off a rumour you've heard and got excited. He would be incredibly perfect for our list, the right player, the right position and the right age bracket. Other players I liked as the targets you listed would be Pickett or Stewart/Kersten as you listed and Hoskin-Elliott but a bit afraid of his AFL-level output and injuries so seems like extra depth versus clear 22 for me.

Anyone else you can think of that we could target this year or could be drafted that would fit our needs as a small forward (Michael Walters the ideal type), second tall forward (Cameron McCarthy the ideal type) or outside mid (Andrew Gaff the ideal type)?

 

[Snoop Dog]

Quality effort as always Snoop Dog.

Regarding Cloke, I think the Bulldogs 2nd rounder, 30ish, could get the deal done.

If Witts wants GWS, I'd be angling for Marchbank in return. We may need to add something...like pay some salary. Many don't like it, but to me, it's basically buying a player for an opposition club. If Witts chooses Gold Coast, then pick 22ish might be in play. I just hope he doesn't pick Essendon because we'd be screwed.

Reports have WHE on a hefty contract that GWS need to shed, so not sure we need to offer up a heap for him. Perhaps pick 30 from the Cloke deal.

If we could secure a 2nd round compo pick for Nate Brown, say pick 26, that'd be a very good result.

If Sam Reid is gettable, perhaps due to the salary cap squeeze at the Swans, we could secure him with pick 26.

Lots of permutations this year. Will be an interesting trade period.

Good one... so you are more;

Marchbank - yep I'd be ok with paying his salary and that would work for them. They will still want fair compo as they have to be seen to have done a good deal. the salary stuff is usually the angle where the preferred bidding club has some currency back. Eg GWS wanted a good deal in picks and player for Boyd but the salary thing was the tipping point when Dogs agreed to pay some of Griffen wage.

Cloke for # 30 and on trade for WHE. I think they will want more than that but not far off and maybe a swap of later picks does it. Eg our 43 for their 70 ('ish).....yep I would be happy with that.

Brown for pick # 26 and on trade for Reid. I think that is overs for him. I think our #43 would almost get it done. For # 26 you could get Stewart and I am more in that camp.

That still leaves us with pick 24 and #43 and something for Williams which you use in the Marchbank deal if needed.

As an aside. with these changes what does Tim Broomhead do?

 

[Snoop Dog]

Lukas Webb is the one we should be after.

Lukas Webb you mean from the Dogs?

 

[Snoop Dog]

Hey Snoop any thoughts on Jeremy Finlayson from the GWS as a potential CHF prospect?

Like him a lot. More a key back for mine. Booming kick on him. He might be vunerable depending on what happens with Marchbank, Corr etc.

 

[Scribe26]

Literally anything else. A 2nd rounder would be nice but even an early 3rd rounder would be much better than Jong+sweetener as Jong literally has no value.

Do you know what the word literally means?

 

[Snoop Dog]

I think we may lose all of Brown Goldsack and Broomhead so that may lead to a reprieve for Goodyear and a better deal for Frost for example.

yep but am hoping not. I get the sense though there is even talk that Brown is gettable means Collingwood may be looking at Marchbank / others. I am not sure they think Frost is the go forward otherwise he surely would have played more late in the year. I was of the view Buckley thought Brown had improved a lot.

 

[Snoop Dog]

You Hope we get more then just Jong for Cloke. I was thinking Jong and a 2nd Rounder

I think that is hopeful. I started out thinking Cloke was probably around 20 but now I am thinking 30.