Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

[SM]

No, knowing that Selwood, Hawkins, Jenkins, Higgins, Smith, Rohan, Dahlhaus etc. won't be on our list in 2 years, is what gave us salary cap space. We also had 800K set aside for TK last year, after all the recent retirements over the last few years of players like Taylor, Enright, Bartel, Mackie, Ablett, Scott Selwood, Jack Steven being paid out, etc.

After Selwood, Hawkins, Duncan and Blicavs, it drops off considerably - before we got Cameron.

Oh so you mean how like when we recruited Buddy we knew who was coming out of contract over the following years and structured his contract around it?

Got it.

 

[Shadow89]

It's like you're doing this on purpose haha.

To my mind's eye, I never saw the Swans as having a bad list - that's the honest truth. It's a bit like what we've done with our drafting, picking the eyes out of later picks, that go on to be solid players. Swans have always had good culture and environment, so it's their development that allows these later gems to become gun players.

That's what keeps getting lost on here, is this argument around 'fairness' and 'equality.'

On the one hand, it's completely reasonable to think that a club who was in contention for the best part of 15 years, shouldn't be getting double dips at Top 10 picks, just because of their academy.

On the other hand, it's completely reasonable to state that only Mills, Blakey and McDonald/Campbell should be getting discussed - when it comes to the perceived issue. Wicks, Gulden, Heeney, should not even factor in, as it was fair how they were attained.

Anyway this conversation and this thread has devolved back into the old 'VFL centric', 'us against them' mentality, and its not really providing any real addition to the topic at hand.

I'm out, because this is just cyclical now. I'll say it one last time - get rid of bids in the first round for both Northern academies and Father/Sons - so it's equalized across the board.

Just as JUH shouldn't have gone to the Dogs, nor should Sydney have gotten both Campbell and McDonald for Pick 4, or should Collingwood have a free hit at a possible Number 1 pick in Nick Daicos next year.

That's it,

Peace.

 

[Elixuh]

To my mind's eye, I never saw the Swans as having a bad list - that's the honest truth. It's a bit like what we've done with our drafting, picking the eyes out of later picks, that go on to be solid players. Swans have always had good culture and environment, so it's their development that allows these later gems to become gun players.

That's what keeps getting lost on here, is this argument around 'fairness' and 'equality.'

On the one hand, it's completely reasonable to think that a club who was in contention for the best part of 15 years, shouldn't be getting double dips at Top 10 picks, just because of their academy.

On the other hand, it's completely reasonable to state that only Mills, Blakey and McDonald/Campbell should be getting discussed - when it comes to the perceived issue. Wicks, Gulden, Heeney, should not even factor in, as it was fair how they were attained.

Anyway this conversation and this thread has devolved back into the old 'VFL centric', 'us against them' mentality, and its not really providing any real addition to the topic at hand.

I'm out, because this is just cyclical now. I'll say it one last time - get rid of bids in the first round for both Northern academies and Father/Sons - so it's equalized across the board.

Just as JUH shouldn't have gone to the Dogs, nor should Sydney have gotten both Campbell and McDonald for Pick 4, or should Collingwood have a free hit at a possible Number 1 pick in Nick Daicos next year.

That's it,

Peace.

Bro, I love that you got entangled in this thread on the basis of Pridham saying you can get an 8 bedroom house in Geelong for $300 a week. Gold.

 

[Shadow89]

Bro, I love that you got entangled in this thread on the basis of Pridham saying you can get an 8 bedroom house in Geelong for $300 a week. Gold.

'Bro', I was here on the first page of this thread, and have commented intermittently throughout, 'cuz'.

 

[losty199]

Swans lost Barry Hall unexpectedly and were hunting for replacement for couple off seasons before they got Tippett and had make 10 year deal to afford Buddy it wasn't magic COLA stash but it was unpopular in VIC so COLA gets scraped and trade ban.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

So you just gloss over the whole '8 bedroom house for 300 dollars a week' part? That's the part that's pissed me off.

Don't get me started on all this Falcons BS. We contribute a sh*tload to that club, in terms of development, local support/funding etc. - we get no priority access to those players.

I would LOVE it, if we could only draft Falcons players due to priority access. We'd have won the last 10 flags if so.

Of course thats why Vic/SA/WA clubs cannot get a academy their level of talent it produces is so far ahead on what we produce, if in 20-30yrs time we produce that level of NSW talent then academies wont be needed.

 

[Ricketz]

Growing the game can not come at the expense of an equal competition.

The league will never be perfect and yes Vic teams also have advantages that should be taken away but I don’t see how anyone can look at the wealth of talent the Swans have gotten in through the academies and think that is good for the league.

It can. It has. And it will again.

 

[Colonial]

Growing the game can not come at the expense of an equal competition.

The league will never be perfect and yes Vic teams also have advantages that should be taken away but I don’t see how anyone can look at the wealth of talent the Swans have gotten in through the academies and think that is good for the league.

As soon as the Vics hand over their advantages the northern clubs will too.

 

[sherb]

Well, well, Geelong supporters complaining about this when there is no more advantaged team in the league than Geelong.

Go home factor and having to pay players more to stay is a fact for all the northern clubs. There are 10 Victorian clubs white anting every Victorian draftee from the moment their name is called by a non Victorian team. That's 10 clubs trying to prise them loose from the club that drafted them. Now that is a massive disadvantage.

But lets have a whinge about a rookie and a pick 32 - hypocrites every Victorian club and a large number of their supporters. Still trying to put the V back into the AFL

For many, the "V" is still there, it's just silent.

 

[Iceman!]

As soon as the Vics hand over their advantages the northern clubs will too.

 

[Colonial]

So that’s a no?

 

[Kwality]

Yeah, how exactly?

They don't own the clubs and the clubs are the stakeholders of the league.

AFL clubs can veto any AFL commission decision with 2/3 majority vote.

If they simply could, we would be the Gold Coast Kangaroo's right now.

Dont renew the bank guarantee, it doesnt go to a vote.

 

[Iceman!]

So that’s a no?

No I have just literally said it multiple times over this thread and than when I try talking about how bs the acadmaies are a new person says ‘but but but what about Vic’.

Father son should be gone

GF should be moved

Academies severely changed

I strongly believe all these things

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

No I have just literally said it multiple times over this thread and than when I try talking about how bs the acadmaies are a new person says ‘but but but what about Vic’.

Father son should be gone

GF should be moved

Academies severely changed

I strongly believe all these things

Yes but do you know whats likely to happen? i highlighted it for you while the rest remain unchanged.

The academy needs a bidding points overhaul you should not be able to match a top 3 bid with a few picks in the 30's.

That being said if clubs think we will spend a shitton of resources and money just so bottom 4 clubs can reap the benefits they have another thing coming.

 

[sydney_gws]

They

So giving up first round picks means that you suddenly had cap space for Cameron?

effectively traded tim Kelly for cameron, just via west coast, and a 1 year delay.

 

[SM]

They

effectively traded tim Kelly for cameron, just via west coast, and a 1 year delay.

Tim Kelly was a draftee, hardly on Cameron money.

 

[Bonz]

Answer is simple.

- No discount on selections.
- Points must be matched with selections from the same round, if you don't have enough points it comes off your future selections (to stop clubs holding first round selections for a king's ransom).

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Tim Kelly was a draftee, hardly on Cameron money.

Same way they got Dangerfield for 800k with the rest of his paycheck outside of the cap.

 

[Scotland]

Of course not because the amount of talent you produce in volume is so far ahead on what we produce, you would have priority to all these players in just 2 drafts.

2019
Luke Jackson
Liam Henry
Georgiades
Elijah Taylor
Chad Warner

2020
Logan Mcdonald
DGB
Health Chapman
Nathan O'Driscoll
Caleb Poulter

2019: 5 players, one of whom stayed in WA via NGA rules
2020: 5 players, picks two of whom were drafted by Freo

Pick 3 in 2019 and picks 4 and 6 in 2020 were drafted interstate. Too bad so sad for WC and Freo, should've finished lower on the ladder. Freo could've drafted Aaron Naughton at pick 9 in 2017 but took Brayshaw and Cerra at 2 and 5 instead. I'm sure they would've loved to have Naughton on top of those picks for some picks in the 20s or 30s.

2018 first WAFL player picked at 15, 2017 at 9, 2016 at 6, 2015 pick 8, 2014 pick 4. It's pretty common for there to be one, maybe two players to be taken in the first round out of the WAFL. Not every year is a Naitanui vs Rich vs Hill choice or Swallow and Bennell going 1-2. The last WA player we picked in the first round was Dom Sheed at 11 in 2013.

There is a big distinction between where you draft players from and where you pick them in the draft. We can draft from the WAFL each year, great, but who gets excited about 3rd and 4th round picks?

The biggest source of angst in this thread is that Sydney got Heeney and Mills at "3" while a top side, then got Braeden Campbell at "5" immediately after picking up Logan McDonald at pick 4. Last year GWS traded up in the draft to get a kid out of the NAB League without jeopardising also getting Tom Green. The clubs don't write the rules, but how can anyone say with a straight face 'we need academies to draft local talent' to go out of their way to get out of state talent first? The academies are great for junior development but if you game the system don't cry to me if the advantage at AFL level gets taken away.

Like most people I had never heard of Errol Gulden until Rd 1. If no one thought he was better than pick 32 then Sydney can have him for free as far as I'm concerned. Maybe Sydney would've matched a bid at pick 20 or 10 or whatever, don't know don't care - no one bid. Oscar Allen was highly rated and no one picked him in the top 20, it happens. The draft is an inexact science. But 3 extra top 5 picks in the space of a handful of years is taking the piss. When Hawthorn were garbage they picked Roughead, Franklin and Lewis 2-5-7. I imagine they would've been filthy to have multiple first round picks only to be told Franklin is off limits because he's indigenous and from Perth, Lewis is off limits because he's a Geelong Falcon...

All the AFL needs to do is apply the NGA rules to the Northern academies. No bidding in the first round and that's that.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Yawn. Move on and contribute or continue to go ad hominem. Your choice.

I'm merely responding to posts directed at me old chap.

 

[zyzzbruh]

No I have just literally said it multiple times over this thread and than when I try talking about how bs the acadmaies are a new person says ‘but but but what about Vic’.

Father son should be gone

GF should be moved

Academies severely changed

I strongly believe all these things

You didn't address the player retention issue tho.... Cap every club in the league having maximum 50% of their list from their home state...all of a sudden watch how the Vic clubs squirm and start putting money into interstate academies, and then actually have the need to thoroughly plan their list structure because they can't pluck every Victorian kid that comes through let alone pry them back easily... Just as every interstate club already faces today.

It's literally a fool proof way to have every club across the board having access to all talent in the country. And with such a cap not every player will beable to just return home at will either. Would give every club a fair playing field. I'll hold your beer whilst you try to protect your advantage with a irrational argument.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Can someone sum up all the reasonable solutions on how to even out the other imbalances in our game once they academies are gone or changed to be considered fair by Victorians?

I haven’t read much of the last few pages but I can only assume it’s rife with suggestions of the grand finals being played at the home ground of the highest ranking participant, ways to counteract the earning power players have living in footy states, alternative ideas to increase national participation so that the go home factor benefits every club, simplifying the fixture to eliminate marquee games that are currently given to Melbourne clubs that were big 30 years ago but largely irrelevant now etc.

Surely a well thought out discussion has taken place since I last checked and everyone wants every single inequality irradiated?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You build a house on a beach and then complain about the waves lapping at your door.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Probably because if it's a player from the Swans Academy, it's a player the Swans have invested time and money in, so why should GWS be given equal access? May as well just have a single NSW academy that both clubs fund.

Now you're getting it, just not quite there yet.

How about this, may as well just have a single NSW Academy that is funded by the AFL and all players go into the draft? See makes much greater sense when you follow the logical pathway to its natural conclusion.

 

[Iceman!]

You didn't address the player retention issue tho.... Cap every club in the league having maximum 50% of their list from their home state...all of a sudden watch how the Vic clubs squirm and start putting money into interstate academies, and then actually have the need to thoroughly plan their list structure because they can't pluck every Victorian kid that comes through let alone pry them back easily... Just as every interstate club already faces today.

It's literally a fool proof way to have every club across the board having access to all talent in the country. And with such a cap not every player will beable to just return home at will either. Would give every club a fair playing field. I'll hold your beer whilst you try to protect your advantage with a irrational argument.

Sorry that i did not address literally every single thing stopping the AFL from being a truly equal competition...

I have no issue with the AFL implementing rules around player movement.

I do however think the complete deflection from any discussion surrounding the academies in here is a bit funny.

I would give up home grand finals, father sons and would even cap the amount of players coming in through trade if it meant we could be adding players of Heeney, Mills, Blakey, Campbell class every other year.

 

[SM]

Now you're getting it, just not quite there yet.

How about this, may as well just have a single NSW Academy that is funded by the AFL and all players go into the draft? See makes much greater sense when you follow the logical pathway to its natural conclusion.

Reckon the AFL wouldn't be too keen on funnelling resources into something like that or they'd already do it..