Review The joke, the fools and the jester vs Suns

[Vader]

Because we won't take the game on and the opposition know this so take away the safe options out to hem us in.

I am not suggesting this as a winning game plan. But one that will at least promote movement across the ground with a young (and told older) playing group.

You learn more having fun than dealing with frustration.

Getting it deep I50 is a good idea. I don't have any issue with it. But right now it's just not feasible. We have enough trouble getting the ball into our half of the ground, let alone I50, let alone deep I50. Deep I50 is a good idea, it's just completely beyond our team as things currently stand.

 

[Mutineer]

Because we won't take the game on and the opposition know this so take away the safe options out to hem us in.

I am not suggesting this as a winning game plan. But one that will at least promote movement across the ground with a young (and told older) playing group.

You learn more having fun than dealing with frustration.

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Bang on.

 

[CrowBloke]

1) Firstly Betts vs Murphy. My answer is neither. Betts was done at the Crows, and won't be around for much longer anyway. Murphy is barely AFL standard and is an extremely limited player. My preference would be Stengle, but he's currently suspended after being busted for DUI.

2) As for Greenwood... Nothing he showed yesterday was an improvement on what he did when he was at the Crows.
3) The main sticking point on his contract was his demand for a 4-year contract. Money didn't seem to be an issue, but 4-years was his non-negotiable and he had other clubs willing to meet his terms. ...
4) The decision to let him go wasn't about what was right for the Crows in R3 2020, but what was right for the club in 2021, 2022 and 2023.

Thanks for the quick reply, appreciated.
1) I used Murphy as a comparison only because he played yesterday. I don't know a lot about Stengle --- is he a better option than, say, McAdam? Also, Betts is 34 this year, and granted a long contract when, what was he, 30/31?
2) 10 possessions, all contested. 8 clearances. 13 tackles.
(https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...s/news-story/008982abe3ded97f32a007ab134a8b65)
That's about average for when he was here, except tackles (he averages 6.3/game, suggesting he was fired up vs Crows). Those numbers in our side would have made him one of our best players.
3) I don't know. I still think they could have worked out a 4-year contract for him with performance-based clauses affecting the 3rd and 4th years. Maybe I was just hoping.
4) well, we won't know until 2022/23 what sort of player he becomes. He might blossom at the Suns and improve.
I'm biased, I think. I liked Greenwood. Great, clean hands in close, got the hard ball and found ways to extricate it and himself out of tight conditions --- just his contest and tackling would have been invaluable yesterday.

 

[Scorpus]

You sound like my u/13 coach.


Put the ball where your team mate will be, not where they are.

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I think it's why Jones is struggling.

He's playing an outside role and you can see him at stoppages floating around the outside, getting active, trying to read the play. But because the Crouch brothers are only interested in handballing directly to players (usually each other), they have no clue where Jones or other outside players will be

 

[CrowBloke]

Vader
Interestingly, Roo said " He’s 28 this year and not going to be playing in our next premiership side " (same article quoted).

So, Roo doesn't expect us to win a Flag in the next 4 years...??

Greenwood might jag a Flag with the Suns, and good luck to him if he does.

 

[Murray2503]

How can he put his mark on the club when we are so devoid of talent both on and off the field. The only thing he can do is keep playing the kids and the club and supporters live to accept the 10+ goal losses. I feel for him as he in a no win situation.

I feel for him too but he signed up for it knowing this was coming. If he didn't know he should have. I agree whoever came in was on a hiding to nothing and that's why no one of experience or proven quality applied. He can do what needs to be done in as quick a time as possible and hope the turnaround comes before he is sacked. Really comes down to whether he can coach or not. A good coach will turn it around quicker than a poor coach. He still needs to be judged regardless of tge cattle. He will be getting reinforcements end of the year onfield and off. He needs to improve once this occurs.

 

[CrowBloke]

Hated the lack of reaction after Keays kicked that nice goal on the run. What a dispirited group of players.

Yeah; it's really obvious, isn't it?
I noticed at the first bounce after half-time that the Suns players looked really lively, on their toes. That kid (Worrell? edit: Rowell, sorry) was hassling one of our blokes (Seed?) who did nothing. Just stood there, arms by his side, getting pushed and elbowed by a rookie. That's the behaviour of someone who knows they're beaten; a loser.
It's only one small example of the lethargy and lack of fighting spirit that's infected our players.

 

[CrowinNT]

You sound like my u/13 coach.


Put the ball where your team mate will be, not where they are.

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Reminds me of my Netball coaching days. Same applies

 

[GreyCrow]

I respect you, so I'll try to explain ...
1) Two/three/four wrongs don't make a right. All 4 cases are very different.
Betts: I was one of many who thought Betts was over-the-hill, but watching his second, third and fourth efforts for Carlton vs Geelong, the way he moved into position (a forward, who runs into space!!) from the R forward pocket to snap a goal from the L of the square seconds later --- wow, Eddie! --- made me wish he was mentoring our small forwards if not still playing for us. Betts was a big loss. He hasn't lost his mojo; the AFC, the GF loss, the camp etc all broke his spirit and he stopped playing with that cheeky fun, verve and flair that he displayed on the weekend. Betts' long contract seemed justified at the time it was signed. It's easy to look back and say with time-travel logic, with hindsight, that the Crows shouldn't have broken their own rules, but I blame the Club for the Betts situation. Not Betts. It's laughable that we're paying for Eddie to Eddie-fy Geelong.
Jenkins: I was a big Jenkins fan when he was being reviled for kicking so many over-the-back ("easy") goals, but he wore off on me because he just didn't improve, kept making the same mistakes, and was clearly positioning himself for a media job in a loose-cannon way, to the detriment of his job which was playing well and kicking goals. Not a team man.
I'd pick Greenwood over Jenkins for a long contract, all day, every day. Greenwood's efforts and skills in close make Jenkins look lazy and laborious. Again, the Club's mistake.
Gibbs: giving away so much to get Gibbs after he turned his back on us was a huge mistake. He was perceived to be the answer to our mid/half-back problems, but has been almost completely ineffective since being with the Crows, who knew about his off-field issues and chased him hard, anyway. Another big AFC mistake.
Walker: is a mystery to me and a shadow of the player he was. When he was re-signed, who predicted he would deteriorate so much as a player? Having said that, it's hard to be an effective forward on the back of our current mids' woeful delivery (28 x I50 total, yesterday!).
2) Each player's story is mutually exclusive. The Club's negotiators can be mindful of previous mistakes, without deciding Greenwood's fate based on the JJ mess, say. The Greenwood situation was badly handled. It was a failure of negotiating skills in being unable to retain him, because
--- he was improving (look at the way he waltzed out of clearances yesterday and the ease with which he broke the Crows half-hearted tackles, laying 13 tackles of his own --- thirteen! --- more than our 'best' 2 tacklers combined in the same game)
--- he still played with aggressive spirit and intent, and most importantly,
--- he really wanted to stay with the Crows, and said so.
Who would you have preferred to be playing for us vs the Suns yesterday, Betts (with his Carlton game) or Murphy (who got pushed/worked off the ball with ease)? Seedsman as a mid, or Greenwood?
My choices would be Betts and Greenwood, who could show our young talent a lot about skill and multiple efforts (Betts) and pressure/tackling/contested footy (Greenwood).
I don't know the ins and outs of the Greenwood contract, but I suspect it wasn't about $s as much as longevity, which = security for Greenwood. OK, offer him security, but only as a reward for performance. In my own business, I negotiate and make deals every week, and would have busted my gut to retain Greenwood without having my judgment decided by previous mistakes (the JJ contract, especially). Greenwood wanted four years --- did they offer him anything close to what he wanted with a performance-clause saying that his 3rd- and 4th- years' ongoing extensions had to be contingent on his performances in the first 2, which would have been a fair resolution? We'll never know.
Anyway, when I posted: " I'd have him back in our midfield-rotating-forward on a 4-year deal in a heartbeat", it was on the back of crushing disappointment at our last 2 losses, in fact the last two years, and looking ahead to at least 2 years of misery.
I probably should have said "I wish Greenwood was playing for us, yesterday".

Keeping Greenwood only happens if either both or one of the Crouches go

The issue, as I saw it , was about deciding on who drives our midfield the next 2-3 years

We also need to roll out draftees through there at some stage

We complained when we wernt playing the kids and now we romanticise Greenwood

Good player is Hugh but neither were we getting rid of the Crouches (even though we should have)

 

[CrowinNT]

Can someone explain Nick’s comments in the presser
He said the group would work through the post match analysis and hoping he doesn’t have to do most of the talking ?

 

[maxlilly]

I couldn't believe how many uncontested marks we dropped yesterday.
So many times we were in the clear but a dropped mark put us in pressure situations.
And we know how the Crows cope with a bit of pressure.

 

[Crow_Magnon]

I found it comforting that in this time of uncertainty, and after nearly all of our coaches have been turned over, we're still sticking like glue to our old faithful kick in strategy of "bomb it long and to the right".

Probably the reason Smith was mentioned. Brown simply runs 10 metres and kicks a 45 m pass directly the opposition most times. Smith may at least get it up near centre or the wing before it inevitably comes back! It's all part of our no-risk mindset - we need to change it up and start working for each other not only on kick-outs but across the board.

 

[feenix67]

The biggest issue with our midfield right now is that in close, we are handballing to where players are, not where we want them to be.

If you look at how the winning teams on the weekend went about it, you'll see midfielders handballing to space, forcing their team mates to get there, get the receive or ground ball, and work into open space.

Our midfield, in particular Matt, Brad and Smith (you could throw in Laird too), always handball DIRECTLY to where a player is. Often they're flat footed as a result. No dynamic movement and no breaking away from the packs.

The reason for that is that the giver (Brad or Matt) is not giving to create, he's giving to get rid of the ball. And the reason he's doing that is because he has no power to put in a couple of quick steps to get a little seperation.

Good midfielders get the ball and have enough leg speed and core strength to put in two or three steps to get seperation and give it off constructively. They also have enough core strength to withstand a bit of body pressure. Funnily enough, the two blokes we gave away last year (Hugh and CEY) were very good at absorbing pressure and drawing opposition players to them, and giving off constructively.

Brad and Matt are disciples of Dwayne's mantra of making it someone else's problem.

 

[GreyCrow]

Can someone explain Nick’s comments in the presser
He said the group would work through the post match analysis and hoping he doesn’t have to do most of the talking ?

"I'm already out of ideas"

 

[Vader]

Thanks for the quick reply, appreciated.
1) I used Murphy as a comparison only because he played yesterday. I don't know a lot about Stengle --- is he a better option than, say, McAdam? Also, Betts is 34 this year, and granted a long contract when, what was he, 30/31?
2) 10 possessions, all contested. 8 clearances. 13 tackles.
(https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...s/news-story/008982abe3ded97f32a007ab134a8b65)
That's about average for when he was here, except tackles (he averages 6.3/game, suggesting he was fired up vs Crows). Those numbers in our side would have made him one of our best players.
3) I don't know. I still think they could have worked out a 4-year contract for him with performance-based clauses affecting the 3rd and 4th years. Maybe I was just hoping.
4) well, we won't know until 2022/23 what sort of player he becomes. He might blossom at the Suns and improve.
I'm biased, I think. I liked Greenwood. Great, clean hands in close, got the hard ball and found ways to extricate it and himself out of tight conditions --- just his contest and tackling would have been invaluable yesterday.

I like Greenwood too, and I would have been very happy with them signing him to a 2-year contract, but 4 years just raised far too many red flags. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that they offered him a 2+1 contract, but weren't willing to go to 4. Four years was non-negotiable for Greenwood, who quite reasonably wanted to set himself financially before retirement. Greenwood had other suitors willing to offer him 4 years, so Adelaide said goodbye.

Greenwood has always been a contested bull in the centre clearances, and he no doubt feasted on tackling our slow midfielders. Yes, we would have been better off with him in the team yesterday, but signing him to a 4-year contract meant having to look beyond the short term, and the risk was just too high when it came to the latter years of the contract.

I don't blame Greenwood for demanding 4 years, to establish his own financial security. I also don't blame the Adelaide Football Club for refusing those demands. Greenwood moved on, to a club which was willing to give him what he wanted, and Adelaide freed up a position for selecting a younger player in the team. In the end if was a win-win situation, which was right for both sides.

Stengle has been selected ahead of McAdam to date. That said, I would be quite happy to see McAdam replace Murphy this week.

 

[Scorpus]

The reason for that is that the giver (Brad or Matt) is not giving to create, he's giving to get rid of the ball. And the reason he's doing that is because he has no power to put in a couple of quick steps to get a little seperation.

Good midfielders get the ball and have enough leg speed and core strength to put in two or three steps to get seperation and give it off constructively. They also have enough core strength to withstand a bit of body pressure. Funnily enough, the two blokes we gave away last year (Hugh and CEY) were very good at absorbing pressure and drawing opposition players to them, and giving off constructively.

Brad and Matt are disciples of Dwayne's mantra of making it someone else's problem.

Exactly.

Then you have Jones doing exactly what you want, except as he breaks free all his supporting midfielders are behind him so he gets caught with no options

 

[Vader]

Vader
Interestingly, Roo said " He’s 28 this year and not going to be playing in our next premiership side " (same article quoted).

So, Roo doesn't expect us to win a Flag in the next 4 years...??

Greenwood might jag a Flag with the Suns, and good luck to him if he does.

It's not an unreasonable statement for Roo to make. A full rebuild typically takes around 7 years to complete, and we're rebuilding virtually from the ground up, having many senior players on the way out and very little to show for the last 6 drafts.

I wish Greenwood all the best at GC.

 

[CrowBloke]

It looked to me like most of our guys were busting a gut

I didn't see it, but I wish I had . Suns had too many loose men. I recall eg Rowell (not 'Worrell', my bad, in a previous post) and Greenwood brushing our blokes aside. Too many tackles didn't stick, or broken. We're getting hammered in contested ball and marking contests. Hesitant, hanging back --- that's a lack of effort. Their mindset seems to be re-active. Suns players take off; Crows jog behind them. Horrible to watch.

I remember not so long ago it used to look like we had an endless supply of players in the right positions being next in line to back up or to be in a place for an escape route if it was needed, or tearing past for a handball, or free out in the open.

Aaaah, Rounds 1-6, and that PRELIM, vs Geelong at AO, 2017 just for starters, jeez that was great footy.
A lot of them "played" yesterday, too, but like ghosts of their former selves.

 

[Vader]

Can someone explain Nick’s comments in the presser
He said the group would work through the post match analysis and hoping he doesn’t have to do most of the talking ?

I think he wants them to explain WTF is going on, and why they're barely giving 20% effort on the field. He's doing his best, but he's getting nothing whatsoever from most of our senior players - and he wants to find out why.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Not to take anything away from the shitful display, but it is tough to believe we would see anything much from the group this year.

We know where we're at, and given the COVID, even if we were half decent, we'd be pushing shit up hill to make the finals - barely any home games, having to live in Qld for 5 weeks, then who the hell knows what.

It'd be pretty dispiriting. And tough to "keep you chin up" unless you actually had a sniff, and we don't. No easish home game to cling to, no home at all, really. I don't care to much about this season tbh. Get through it, and hope 2021 is back for real, so I can sort of understand our players not really being up for the fight.

 

[spenze]

Can someone explain Nick’s comments in the presser
He said the group would work through the post match analysis and hoping he doesn’t have to do most of the talking ?

Hoping for a few players to put their hands up to retire on the shit sandwich they have served up the last fortnight

 

[CrowBloke]

Many of the senior players have completely given up and stopped trying.

This! --- sure looks like.

 

[CrowBloke]

Keeping Greenwood only happens if either both or one of the Crouches go.
Good player is Hugh but neither were we getting rid of the Crouches (even though we should have)

Yeah, good point.
I loved Greenwood's spirit, that energetic cheerfulness, and his willingness to compete. To me, he played like he loved AFL footy, loved the team too.

 

[hey shorty]

Can someone explain Nick’s comments in the presser
He said the group would work through the post match analysis and hoping he doesn’t have to do most of the talking ?

I'd say he put it fairly on the senior players, who've been garbage

 

[hey shorty]

Yeah, good point.
I loved Greenwood's spirit, that energetic cheerfulness, and his willingness to compete. To me, he played like he loved AFL footy, loved the team too.

He did and still does.