The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[yebach]

It still seems like your argument here is that there are no shades of grey: That any involvement in bad actions or outcomes is equivalent; and here, specifically, that Saddam Hussein and John Howard are equally "bad". I don't have any strong opinion on the specific case, but I think the general point you're trying to make is obviously false. (To give you a concrete example, I'd say both Hitler and Trump were/are bad people, but I think we can make a distinction between how bad they were/are.)



Why do you say that? I mean, before Russia invaded, Ukraine was already doing better than Russia on most indices of freedom and democracy. For instance, in 2021 Reporters without borders gave Ukraine a press freedom score of 67 vs. 51 in Russia (now 61 vs. 34); the Economist Intelligence Unit gave Ukraine a democracy score of 5.6 vs. 3.24 for Russia (now 5.1 vs. 2.2); and Freedom House gave Ukraine a freedom score of 60 vs. 20 for Russia (now 50 vs. 16). Is this not sufficient evidence to conclude that Ukraine under Russian control would generally be worse for Ukrainians' prospects for freedom and democracy?



I'm struggling to see the connection to your argument here. Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviets, then run by the Taliban, then invaded by a bunch of other countries, and is now being run by the Taliban again. How does this tell us anything about the situation in Ukraine?



What's your source for this? I tried looking it up, and couldn't find anything reliable (the only relevant source I found was here, where Ukrainian troop deployments look pretty uniform across the country, other than the front lines; but I don't know anything about the quality of the site).



You're conflating two things here: Not wanting to die in a war, and not "believing" in a war. There are plenty of Ukrainian refugees in the city I live in, and I can tell you, they'd be pretty happy if Russia was driven out of their country and they got to go home. They just don't want to die themselves. (Fair enough too.)



Source? I had a look, and the best I could find was this: "Vladimir Putin's chief envoy on Ukraine told the Russian leader as the war began that he had struck a provisional deal with Kyiv that would satisfy Russia's demand that Ukraine stay out of NATO, but Putin rejected it and pressed ahead with his military campaign, according to three people close to the Russian leadership."

That would mean it was Russia, rather that "the west", that forced the war, wouldn't it?



Sure, but I don't think they need to be for us to form a reasonable opinion on whether one outcome is worse than another.



Sure, but whereas expressing that sentiment publicly here might have people rolling their eyes at you, expressing it publicly there will probably see you imprisoned. Just because the West is and has been responsible for some horrible stuff doesn't mean no one else is worse; or that the U.S. and its allies are always in the wrong.

Your post proves my point. Lots of shades of grey.
If we've come to a point where we accept a level of ' bad ' just because it's less 'bad' than our perceived opponents and don't question it. Then I think we're in trouble.

 

[BrisDog]

Your post proves my point. Lots of shades of grey.
If we've come to a point where we accept a level of ' bad ' just because it's less 'bad' than our perceived opponents and don't question it. Then I think we're in trouble.

We are in trouble. The fact that some/alot of MAGA style Trump voters, and the equivalent viewers/voters in Australia, are now warming to Putin’s authoritarian style and arguing the well used line ‘they are all the same’ or ‘they are as bad as each other’ is of deep concern to me and Australian Security Agencies, such as the current head of ASIO. He states our greatest threat now is from the far-right.

My opinion - these people have taken a shine to media types such as Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, the equivalent ‘Sky After Dark’ presenters and the deep, dark holes of the internet. The algorithm’s then kick in to support and ingrain these types of opinions without being exposed to objective view points on the vast array of issues that exist in our society.

Mobile phones and social media is slowly f**king our society, both on the far right and far left.

Locally, the traditional working class Labor voters, appear to be over the increased ‘Wokeism’ (I don’t like the term) and have reacted by looking at alternatives. Don’t be surprised if the current Coaltion opposition get a lot closer to power in 12 months than originally thought. Today’s polls suggest this much to my surprise. Labor will be relying on The Green’s preferences even more than usual.

 

[yebach]

I see no evidence of such a thing - seriously read his books if you are interested. He has lived an amazing life. Browder is very much his own man.

Thank you. I'll give it a read.

 

[Freshwater]

We are in trouble. The fact that some/alot of MAGA style Trump voters, and the equivalent viewers/voters in Australia, are now warming to Putin’s authoritarian style and arguing the well used line ‘they are all the same’ or ‘they are as bad as each other’ is of deep concern to me and Australian Security Agencies, such as the current head of ASIO. He states our greatest threat now is from the far-right.

My opinion - these people have taken a shine to media types such as Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, the equivalent ‘Sky After Dark’ presenters and the deep, dark holes of the internet. The algorithm’s then kick in to support and ingrain these types of opinions without being exposed to objective view points on the vast array of issues that exist in our society.

Mobile phones and social media is slowly f**king our society, both on the far right and far left.

Locally, the traditional working class Labor voters, appear to be over the increased ‘Wokeism’ (I don’t like the term) and have reacted by looking at alternatives. Don’t be surprised if the current Coaltion opposition get a lot closer to power in 12 months than originally thought. Today’s polls suggest this much to my surprise. Labor will be relying on The Green’s preferences even more than usual.

Agree, I reckon the media, especially the mainstream media likes to perpetuate a left-right narrative when there are dozens of ways to approach any political problem. But the real problem is authoritarianism, whether left or right, the media doesn’t want to have the real discussion. Some people seem to want authoritarian type ‘leaders’, and they want to be governed by them because of their lack of self responsibility and lack of any original thinking or ideas. They can see the world changing around them in ways they think or know are wrong, but can’t understand the way through it, so they want a ‘strong man’ to turn it back to what it was.
Any leader who has more that two terms at any level of leadership has an ego problem. Generally the American system is that diffused that one president can’t do that much damage. Congress has the same level of powers as the executive(president) and and the states are meant to have 90% of the power anyway, but this has been slowly usurped over time, but is still in their founding principles.

 

[Arkangel]

Your post proves my point. Lots of shades of grey.
If we've come to a point where we accept a level of ' bad ' just because it's less 'bad' than our perceived opponents and don't question it. Then I think we're in trouble.

I don't disagree with any of that.

In terms of incentives for politicians to be "bad" or otherwise, in a democratic system if we fail to care about or discriminate between levels of "badness", this can only advantage the very worst of the lot. We'd all like to have people of integrity and ethics in power; but in the absence of that, at least the lesser of two evils is… well, less evil.

 

[Next Waiting]

I don't disagree with any of that.

In terms of incentives for politicians to be "bad" or otherwise, in a democratic system if we fail to care about or discriminate between levels of "badness", this can only advantage the very worst of the lot. We'd all like to have people of integrity and ethics in power; but in the absence of that, at least the lesser of two evils is… well, less evil.

Was watching some program tonight and they interviewed some old American guy about the prospect of having to vote for either Trump or Biden.
Wasn't thrilled at either option but in the case where he has no alternative options, he would vote for Biden over Trump, even if Biden was dead.

 

[BrisDog]

What great news to start the day with - Trump is found guilty is a convicted felon.

Nigh nigh you fat drag queen.

Hopefully that pulls a couple of percentage points away from him and it is the end of the MAGA circus. I have my doubts though.

 

[grassman75]

You guys care way too much about American politics…i just laugh at them all.

Need to worry more about the state of affairs in our own country first

I haven’t followed the trump case at all, however i would assume he will appeal, win and become the next president….just to piss you and all the other lefties off Brissie

 

[Mofra]

What great news to start the day with - Trump is found guilty is a convicted felon.

Nigh nigh you fat drag queen.

Hopefully that pulls a couple of percentage points away from him and it is the end of the MAGA circus. I have my doubts though.

It's more likely Eric telling crowds they should win "because they're white" and Trump now on tape using the N word which will help.

His cult members don't care but the undecided voters might be swayed.

 

[BrisDog]

just to piss you and all the other lefties off Brissie

I’m definitely not a lefty Grassman. I just don’t like crooks and cults.

 

[Freshwater]

I reckon this may help Trump???
This election is obviously a tragedy for America with two appalling candidates (both seem to be real criminals) and two appalling parties. Maybe a good guy like Jimmy Carter or Eisenhower could never be atop a political party anymore, to get to the top you have to play dirty, unlawfully? But it’s also one of the strangest in that their people have seen 4 years with one guy and 4 years with the other. So at least their vote will be with informed knowledge of their time in office.

 

[Next Waiting]

What great news to start the day with - Trump is found guilty is a convicted felon.

Nigh nigh you fat drag queen.

Hopefully that pulls a couple of percentage points away from him and it is the end of the MAGA circus. I have my doubts though.

Does this mean he won't be able to buy a gun? And if not, should that also disqualify him from being Commander in Chief.....you know....directing guys with guns.

 

[BrisDog]

I reckon this may help Trump???

The polling I have seen this morning indicates he will lose 5-15% of independent voters with a conviction. Being independents-only, that is pretty modest. But if that turns out to be a 2-3% in total swing away from Trump that may be enough.

How Trump’s guilty verdict will impact the 2024 presidential election

Trump may lose some support, but polls from before the conviction indicate that the drop could be temporary.

abcnews.go.com

Also of note, residents of Florida who are convicted felons lose the right to vote - LOL!

 

[Senex]

As a seppo discovering this thread is wild


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[bresker]

Has anyone been following the rise of Robert Kennedy jr and his serious tilt as a third party candidate?

Who does RFK Jr pose the bigger threat to: Joe Biden or Donald Trump? – podcast

This week, Jonathan Freedland speaks to political analyst David Corn about which of the two frontrunners should be more worried by RFK Jr’s presidential campaign

www.theguardian.com

He’s as batshit crazy as Trump if not moreso. Full on conspiracy theorist .

Robert F Kennedy says a worm 'ate a portion' of his brain, 'then died'. What can a brain parasite do?

Robert F Kennedy Jr struggled with memory loss and brain fog so severe his friends were concerned he had a tumour. Instead, he says, doctors found a parasite.

www.abc.net.au

 

[BrisDog]

As a seppo discovering this thread is wild


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Where do you live Senex? Welcome aboard the wild ride!

 

[Next Waiting]

If he became President, would Australia grant him a visa for a presidential visit or would he be denied on character grounds

 

[Next Waiting]

To not be sentenced to a prison term would be an exception to the rule. This whole saga is just too good.

 

[BrisDog]

If he became President, would Australia grant him a visa for a presidential visit or would he be denied on character grounds

The hypotheticals are delicious. If the shoe was on the other foot the US would not let a regular Aussie in, that is for sure.

 

[Next Waiting]

While he's in prison I imagine he'll affiliate with and enjoy the protection of the Arian Brotherhood in gen pop.

 

[geoffjennings79]

You guys care way too much about American politics…i just laugh at them all.

Need to worry more about the state of affairs in our own country first

I haven’t followed the trump case at all, however i would assume he will appeal, win and become the next president….just to piss you and all the other lefties off Brissie

Unfortunately the state of US politics has a not-insignificant impact on the state of affairs here.

And the only political comment I'll make (not linked to yours or anyone else's posts btw) is in regards to Matt Canavan. His tweet regarding the outcome of the Trump case is the perfect example of this adage:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
(Although Canavan removed all doubt a long time ago. IMO of course! )

 

[Leon]

What great news to start the day with - Trump is found guilty is a convicted felon.

Nigh nigh you fat drag queen.

Hopefully that pulls a couple of percentage points away from him and it is the end of the MAGA circus. I have my doubts though.

Great result.

Absolutely despise Trump and his dead beat supporters.

 

[yebach]

I wonder what we would find if we looked into the dealings of our ex Prime Minister and other ministers,

 

[dogwatch]

Don't dismiss Trump's chance just yet.

Trump was just convicted of conspiracy and fraud. He could still win re-election | Lloyd Green

The ex-president lost a hush-money trial in New York. But if you think that will keep him from the Oval Office, think again

www.theguardian.com

 

[Freshwater]

There is obviously a few big issues in the US. Illegal immigration is hitting a tipping point, probably past. Cheap labour is great for middle class people to tend their gardens, raise their kids, build their homes etc. But the blue collar work force has been hollowed out. You could own your own home and raise a family in working class jobs. It has been undermined by cheap imported labour. The economic rationality of both the Republicans and Democrats since the 1980’s have caused this. Trump taps into this discontent. His ideas are not the answer, but either is the Democratic Party with their affirmative action and allowing the country to be flooded. What a horrible time for them to have to choose these two options so far from their founding principles.