The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Some Idiot]

I don't understand how the senile old man and the criminal businessman are both still around in politics.

 

[Mofra]

I don't understand how the senile old man and the criminal businessman are both still around in politics.

The US is cooked.
For the past few elections there have been 'donation tallies' shown alongside polling numbers. Democracy for $ale.

 

[BrisDog]

The Dem’s are taking their sweet time getting rid of Biden. George Stephanopolous asked him yesterday if he had watched his first debate, in which he replied: ‘I don’t think I did, no’. Seriously - WTF. ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ is the answer. Get rid of him. Save the world from a raping, thief.



We cannot have the anti-intellectualist Republican’s or independents ruling all levels of Government. Even the cult has taken over the Supreme Court.

Joe Biden saved American democracy once in 2020 by defeating Trump. He can save it a second time by standing down now, with his head held high, for a younger candidate.

 

[Doggy Dan]

There’s no point Joe stepping down unless Michelle is willing to step up. She might not have her heart in politics but she needs to make the sacrifice to protect her country. She’s the only on who can! Maybe she should take a quiet stroll through Arlington and reflect on the scores of American men and woman who have given much to protect the nation from tyranny.

 

[LittleG]

There’s no point Joe stepping down unless Michelle is willing to step up. She might not have her heart in politics but she needs to make the sacrifice to protect her country. She’s the only on who can! Maybe she should take a quiet stroll through Arlington and reflect on the scores of American men and woman who have given much to protect the nation from tyranny.

This is correct.

She steps up to the plate and I think Biden will step aside. Her country needs her.

I have had a massive upheaval in my life and my politics has shifted a long way to the right BUT Michelle is the only way forward I can see for the US. The alternative leads to civil war breaking out…. as the GOP are too focused on retention of power and not on the people they serve.

 

[BrisDog]

There’s no point Joe stepping down unless Michelle is willing to step up. She might not have her heart in politics but she needs to make the sacrifice to protect her country. She’s the only on who can! Maybe she should take a quiet stroll through Arlington and reflect on the scores of American men and woman who have given much to protect the nation from tyranny.

If Joe doesn’t stand down Trump will be President. That is a certainty.

Run Whitmer for Pres which gives them Michigan (she holds it by 10% as Gov) and Shapiro as VC which gives them Pennsylvania (holds by a similar margin) and they only need one more of Georgia and Nevada. An open convention would reinvigorate the base in my opinion.

 

[Freshwater]

The US is ‘cooked’ because the parties Democrats and Republicans are both about themselves and the party. Too much money too many corporate ideals. Years ago when my wife was listening to an Australian news story about how on a particular issue, the party at the time ‘allowed’ a conscience vote! My wife a bit naive but very honest person couldn’t get her head around the idea that voted in representatives would ever vote against their conscience to ‘tow’ the party line for most legislation. As long as, we the public, support our political parties or even left or right like we do our footy teams, we are ‘cooked’, I reckon it’s important to vote or support every single issue independently for what they’re worth. If you get called left or right or this or that, who cares. Left and right shift so much that ‘freedom of speech’ for example, was a left wing commitment for most of my life and now is apparently right wing?? I couldn’t give a flying f what small minds call it, I’ll support the idea not the label. And it’s like this on nearly everything, it shouldn’t be so party political, just whether individually you think it’s the right thing whether your ‘team’ supports it or not.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

The US is cooked.
For the past few elections there have been 'donation tallies' shown alongside polling numbers. Democracy for $ale.

Not for sale. Sold.

Citizens United V. The FEC. Another classic anti-democratic Supreme Court ruling.

There’s no point Joe stepping down unless Michelle is willing to step up. She might not have her heart in politics but she needs to make the sacrifice to protect her country. She’s the only on who can! Maybe she should take a quiet stroll through Arlington and reflect on the scores of American men and woman who have given much to protect the nation from tyranny.

There is literally zero chance of that happening.

One of the reasons that Trump was elected in the first place was the electorates aversion to dynastic rule at the time.

Im not sure that in the unlikely event of her deciding to run, that its the best idea to step over another woman of colour to get there. Seeing Biden out and about over the last few days reinforces the notion that he aint going anywhere and the party will ride or die on his back.

 

[Mofra]

The US is ‘cooked’ because the parties Democrats and Republicans are both about themselves and the party. Too much money too many corporate ideals. Years ago when my wife was listening to an Australian news story about how on a particular issue, the party at the time ‘allowed’ a conscience vote! My wife a bit naive but very honest person couldn’t get her head around the idea that voted in representatives would ever vote against their conscience to ‘tow’ the party line for most legislation. As long as, we the public, support our political parties or even left or right like we do our footy teams, we are ‘cooked’, I reckon it’s important to vote or support every single issue independently for what they’re worth. If you get called left or right or this or that, who cares. Left and right shift so much that ‘freedom of speech’ for example, was a left wing commitment for most of my life and now is apparently right wing?? I couldn’t give a flying f what small minds call it, I’ll support the idea not the label. And it’s like this on nearly everything, it shouldn’t be so party political, just whether individually you think it’s the right thing whether your ‘team’ supports it or not.

No in the US. They are literally holding mass book-burnings across the bible belt. School books bans are back in vogue, especially in Florida and Texas.
There is a real regression movement in the US

 

[Freshwater]

No in the US. They are literally holding mass book-burnings across the bible belt. School books bans are back in vogue, especially in Florida and Texas.
There is a real regression movement in the US

To ban or burn a book is just fear. You can never eliminate an idea no matter if it’s good, bad or indifferent by trying to cancel it. The only way is to expose it and let it be overcome by a better idea. People on all sides of the political divide struggle with freedom of expression.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

No in the US. They are literally holding mass book-burnings across the bible belt. School books bans are back in vogue, especially in Florida and Texas.
There is a real regression movement in the US

Project 2025 literally wants to take the US back to a time before the civil rights movement.

Its little wonder that Trump spent yesterday trying to distance himself from and denying knowing anything about it.

His problem is that he has publicly spoken at Heritage Foundation events many times and that the project is littered with his Cabinet secretaries, former staffers, hangers on and assorted freaks and lunatics.

Of course he's never met any of them.

 

[Mofra]

To ban or burn a book is just fear. You can never eliminate an idea no matter if it’s good, bad or indifferent by trying to cancel it. The only way is to expose it and let it be overcome by a better idea. People on all sides of the political divide struggle with freedom of expression.

There is a cultural aspect too. Australia isn't perfect but in terms of freedom of expression we're doing a lot better than the US right now.

The US has a strong evangelical base we simply don't have here, that helps a lot. Our nominal left/right parties seem closer to the centre than most of the politicians in the US.

 

[Mofra]

Project 2025 literally wants to take the US back to a time before the civil rights movement.

Its little wonder that Trump spent yesterday trying to distance himself from and denying knowing anything about it.

His problem is that he has publicly spoken at Heritage Foundation events many times and that the project is littered with his Cabinet secretaries, former staffers, hangers on and assorted freaks and lunatics.

Of course he's never met any of them.

He's a pathological liar, his words are worthless except to his most cult-like of followers. Unfortunately when you have large swathes of the US taught not to think and that the ultimate virtues are in faith and patriotism, reality no longer applies.

 

[Freshwater]

The USA was before its independence and for nearly 200 years after (say to WWII) a strong Christian country at its foundations with a birth not only at the height of the Enlightenment but based in its values too. Christianity help give birth to the Enlightenment and these to competing ideas actually help form a very free, wealthy, healthy society not without its challenges that were met with the ideals and the challenges overcome.
What is it about the small minded fundamentalist evangelical’s and I would also say the fundamentalist atheists (definitely not all, just the ones that don’t get this history) that have lost sight of the liberal principles that the nation flourished on for so long? Illiberalism from both sides here. If the Democrats didn’t want Trump why put Hilary Clinton against him in 2016? And if they don’t want him now why put Weekend at Bernie’s Biden against him now? Also the Democrats are a million miles away from say Barack Obama let alone JFK. BLM, DEI, extreme climate catastrophising, saying a man is a women or vice versa when clearly they are lying but being told it’s true, etc people are going to retreat from such nonsense. If they go to the criminal, liar, narcissistic ego maniac it just shows they are confused and are voting on what 4 years they liked better 2017-21 or 21-25. They’ve al least had the only real comparison I can ever remember in any election. So yes I do shudder at the fundamentalist Christian attitude to life, that like the fundamentalist Muslims puts more value on death than life. Like Richard Dawkins, the worlds most famous and influential atheist said “I may be an atheist, but I am a cultural Christian” I believe he means he takes the spirit and mercy and forgiveness and freedoms and that man is created in Gods image, is actually an amazing concept that created the human rights we have today even if their historical origin has been forgotten. And those rights are not given to us by kings or queens or governments, to know that they pre-existed, always have. The fundamentalists don’t get any of this, so many people don’t get any of this. It’s all a bit frustrating sometimes, but it’s so far from bad man here, good guys over there.

 

[Bulldog1954]

You need to walk those streets mate, I guarantee your sentiment will change. We are lucky here and wouldn't comprehend how bad it is. I'd rather clean up those streets to be safe for locals, tourists and for the homeless. That should be #1 priority, not the orange one

I was there last year.

What's your man Trump going to do? What's his policy apart from scaring people about immigrants? Maybe he can blame the central park 5 again?

 

[TMoney22]

I was there last year.

What's your man Trump going to do? What's his policy apart from scaring people about immigrants? Maybe he can blame the central park 5 again?

Then you should know. I think it's too far gone for anyone to fix.

Stop making this about Trump. The sanctuary cities have been allowed by one side. Yes homeless has always been a problem but nothing like the last 4 years. I don't get how biased people are on both sides. How can you not see the reality and be against it and speak about it. I'd like to see this thread talk about these issues more but anything that make the demos look bad you don't go there. That's what is dumb.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Then you should know. I think it's too far gone for anyone to fix.

Stop making this about Trump. The sanctuary cities have been allowed by one side. Yes homeless has always been a problem but nothing like the last 4 years. I don't get how biased people are on both sides. How can you not see the reality and be against it and speak about it. I'd like to see this thread talk about these issues more but anything that make the demos look bad you don't go there. That's what is dumb.

You literally said that only Trump wants to improve it, but then I'm not allowed to ask how? Again, what are the policies he has stated he plans on enacting if he wins that will improve it? Or is it all him wanting to bring back stop and frisk?

Also, while Trump loves to talk about violent crimes increasing, and largely blaming immigrants (his usual approach to appeal to the people who vote for him) stats have shown a decrease in violent crime.

 

[BrisDog]

Then you should know. I think it's too far gone for anyone to fix.

Stop making this about Trump. The sanctuary cities have been allowed by one side. Yes homeless has always been a problem but nothing like the last 4 years. I don't get how biased people are on both sides. How can you not see the reality and be against it and speak about it. I'd like to see this thread talk about these issues more but anything that make the demos look bad you don't go there. That's what is dumb.

TMoney22 - how many times have you been to the US and where did you spend the majority of your time over there?

 

[King Harold]

You literally said that only Trump wants to improve it, but then I'm not allowed to ask how? Again, what are the policies he has stated he plans on enacting if he wins that will improve it? Or is it all him wanting to bring back stop and frisk?

Also, while Trump loves to talk about violent crimes increasing, and largely blaming immigrants (his usual approach to appeal to the people who vote for him) stats have shown a decrease in violent crime.

One policy he come up with was to give police complete immunity.
Again just something that popped up in his head. ——- should work well. !

He’s right into immunity’s these days , it’s great you don’t have to adhere to any law.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

The USA was before its independence and for nearly 200 years after (say to WWII) a strong Christian country at its foundations with a birth not only at the height of the Enlightenment but based in its values too. Christianity help give birth to the Enlightenment and these to competing ideas actually help form a very free, wealthy, healthy society not without its challenges that were met with the ideals and the challenges overcome.

It's interesting to me that you draw the line of all things good and christian at WWII. Given what occurs occurs in the years immediately post war, after many veterans have returned to the status quo of segregation. It's a bit of a tell really.

There isn't a place on the planet that has a bigger discrepancy between the wealthy and the poor than evident in the US. Indeed it's dependant on having a underclass to keep its economy, service and agricultural industries afloat.

But it's not really a surprise given its a nation brought up on the myth of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and being able to make it. Or when you have a billionaire presidential candidate cosplaying as an everyman.

What it is in reality is a dog eat dog society where if you fall by the wayside it's just too bad and seen as a clear sign of your moral and personal failings. Veteran living on the streets with PTSD. Too bad. Got mental health issues. Too bad.

This is one of the are occasions where its correct to point out the both sidesism of the political classes failings. Its just the reality of a country that is run along the lines of a voracious corporation.

What is it about the small minded fundamentalist evangelical’s and I would also say the fundamentalist atheists (definitely not all, just the ones that don’t get this history) that have lost sight of the liberal principles that the nation flourished on for so long? Illiberalism from both sides here.

Are you serious? The influence that fundamental atheists (whatever they are) is infinitesimal compared to the stranglehold that the evangelicals have had on public and political discourse not to mention policy in the US.

I suspect that you and I have a very different definition of what it means to be liberal.

If the Democrats didn’t want Trump why put Hilary Clinton against him in 2016? And if they don’t want him now why put Weekend at Bernie’s Biden against him now?

Because political parties are trying to cast the widest net of potential net of voters possible.

And although she had her faults and could quite easily and in the end cleverly be portrayed as a continuum of previous dynasties. The reality was that she was by far the more qualified of the two candidates. Given she had a lifetime of public policy and senior government experience behind her candidacy. Unfortunately for her, that candidacy coincided with the arrival of the internet age where people now believe everything that fits their world view and have a growing mistrust for anyone who works in public policy, the sciences or anything that challenges peoples political and religious beliefs.

Trump on the other hand had a lifetime of bankrupting companies. Putting his name on any shonky product that would pay for the privilege only to walk when it inevitably went belly up and screwing pr0n stars soon after his wife gave birth to his son.

But sure Hillary bad.

Also the Democrats are a million miles away from say Barack Obama let alone JFK. BLM, DEI, extreme climate catastrophising, saying a man is a women or vice versa when clearly they are lying but being told it’s true, etc people are going to retreat from such nonsense.

Not sure if serious or just a FoxNews viewer.

The Democrats have been the voice of progressive (liberal) change in the US since the Southern Democrats switched sides with the introduction of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. Nothing at all has changed on that front. Most of the woke, dei trans gender or whatever other claptrap that you regularly rail against are grass roots movements that once they gain a critical mass of public opinion and approval amongst democratic voters tends to become party policy.

Thats how politics tends to work.

All things that anybody who advocates for personal freedom should support.

If they go to the criminal, liar, narcissistic ego maniac it just shows they are confused and are voting on what 4 years they liked better 2017-21 or 21-25. They’ve al least had the only real comparison I can ever remember in any election.

But they aren't.

The polls that have been conducted since the debate aren't showing a shift of Democrats to Republicans. They're showing a shift of Democrats into the undecided category. This is indicative that they are more likely to stay home polling day than switch sides. Let's not forget that Trump has never won the popular vote in his two tries and remains deeply unpopular outside of his base especially amongst women.

So yes I do shudder at the fundamentalist Christian attitude to life, that like the fundamentalist Muslims puts more value on death than life. Like Richard Dawkins, the worlds most famous and influential atheist said “I may be an atheist, but I am a cultural Christian” I believe he means he takes the spirit and mercy and forgiveness and freedoms and that man is created in Gods image, is actually an amazing concept that created the human rights we have today even if their historical origin has been forgotten. And those rights are not given to us by kings or queens or governments, to know that they pre-existed, always have. The fundamentalists don’t get any of this, so many people don’t get any of this. It’s all a bit frustrating sometimes, but it’s so far from bad man here, good guys over there.

Our rights are for the most part derived from the struggles of countless generations of people trying to free themselves from the tyranny of serfdom and oppression at the hands of the Church, Kings and Lords and landowners. In the European context many of those rights were enshrined in Magna Carta and then slowly filtered through society over the next 950 years. A struggle that continues as right wing governments take on the roll of Kings as they seek to monopolise power and wind back many of the reforms that ordinary people have worked so hard for over a millennium.

None of these rights were derived from a Devine being.

A Cultural Cristian Atheist. Ive never heard anything more ridiculous in my life.

Pick a lane and have the courage of your convictions.

My lane is one without any god nonsense.



Yeah, yeah. TL ; DR.

Sorry.

Not sorry.

 

[Freshwater]

It's interesting to me that you draw the line of all things good and christian at WWII.

I reckon not long after here WWII there is a loss of everyone assuming to be Christian and many of the Christian’s having that fundamentalist attitude. I could have drawn that line anywhere. But besides the initial Christian moment after WWII it fell away quickly and the fundamentalists got political. I wasn’t saying it was a good thing.
There is a great discrepancy between rich and poor and has always existed but seems much worse now, I read much about it. Again pre WWII the wealthy (not super wealthy) were generally living in the same towns as their poorer countrymen, their kids even used to go to the same schools. This is not so much any more. But I disagree that there was the working poor like back in the old world. n America you were free from so much of the stifling class systems across Europe. From Polish to Irish to Italians etc you had way more chance to live well in the freest country on Earth. And ultimately the rich poor divided should never matter if the poorer are still living well, which they could way more than any country in the past. Again since the last 50 years something dramatically has changed for the worse.
I wasn’t criticising Hilary as a person or potential president but that she was the worst candidate because of her unpopularity. The country had just elected a black man…twice! People are not as prejudiced as you think they are but they just didn’t like her, and it was total hubris that lead them to continue with her. And they’ll soon repeat the same mistake with Weekend at Bernie’s and learn nothing.
As for the Atheist Fundamentalist's just another name for the illiberal woke. Who catastrophise climate, tell us a man is a women, think DEI is an answer, racialise everything and everyone. All these ideas are against the ideas of liberalism, I listen to people like Barri Weis, Bill Maher, Sam Harris etc who are from that old left who slap their foreheads at this woke nonsense. If you hate Trump as much as you say, keep supporting that nonsense and you’ll get Trump. I also believe Trump is everything you say he is, so don’t give the other side reason to vote him in by supporting that woke nonsense.

 

[King Harold]

I reckon not long after here WWII there is a loss of everyone assuming to be Christian and many of the Christian’s having that fundamentalist attitude. I could have drawn that line anywhere. But besides the initial Christian moment after WWII it fell away quickly and the fundamentalists got political. I wasn’t saying it was a good thing.
There is a great discrepancy between rich and poor and has always existed but seems much worse now, I read much about it. Again pre WWII the wealthy (not super wealthy) were generally living in the same towns as their poorer countrymen, their kids even used to go to the same schools. This is not so much any more. But I disagree that there was the working poor like back in the old world. n America you were free from so much of the stifling class systems across Europe. From Polish to Irish to Italians etc you had way more chance to live well in the freest country on Earth. And ultimately the rich poor divided should never matter if the poorer are still living well, which they could way more than any country in the past. Again since the last 50 years something dramatically has changed for the worse.
I wasn’t criticising Hilary as a person or potential president but that she was the worst candidate because of her unpopularity. The country had just elected a black man…twice! People are not as prejudiced as you think they are but they just didn’t like her, and it was total hubris that lead them to continue with her. And they’ll soon repeat the same mistake with Weekend at Bernie’s and learn nothing.
As for the Atheist Fundamentalist's just another name for the illiberal woke. Who catastrophise climate, tell us a man is a women, think DEI is an answer, racialise everything and everyone. All these ideas are against the ideas of liberalism, I listen to people like Barri Weis, Bill Maher, Sam Harris etc who are from that old left who slap their foreheads at this woke nonsense. If you hate Trump as much as you say, keep supporting that nonsense and you’ll get Trump. I also believe Trump is everything you say he is, so don’t give the other side reason to vote him in by supporting that woke nonsense.

Have you changed your mind on Trump ?
I could trawl back on the thread but from memory you were fairly prolific with your defence of him.

 

[Freshwater]

Have you changed your mind on Trump ?
I could trawl back on the thread but from memory you were fairly prolific with your defence of him.

From very firsts posts I consciously tried to write why people choose him over the Dems. I ‘get’ these people it seems more than a lot of people on here. I work with them, they are in my family and close friendship circle. I have said often I am working class, not just from a working class family, I am still on the tools after nearly 4 decades in the workforce. I read constantly but love making things, it’s how my brain works best and I’m good at it. I have no time for the paternalism of modern government's. Self reliance is important. I am trying to say to those that hate Trump, if you keep supporting waky woke ideas you’ll end up with…Trump.

 

[King Harold]

That’s fine mate if you don’t want to answer , probably none of my business.

 

[Freshwater]

That’s fine mate if you don’t want to answer , probably none of my business.

My answer was in that post but it had your name above for some reason?