The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[stefcep]

What has happened 50 years ago is no longer releavnt.
I didn't say fifty years ago. I said in the last fifty years which takes us right up to today.

Trump's voter base is not the high income, wealthy, privileged degree educated inner city dwellers.
Neither is Harris'. Both of them do rely on wealthy privileged degree educated big money donors though.
The voter bases switched sides because the Democrats no longer want anything with the great unwashed deplorables.
There was a big switch during the civil rights era, but that is more than 50 years ago so is no longer relevant, but no significant switch recently.

Fact is there was a massive increase in border apprehensions under Trump.
There was an increase under Trump. I wouldn't call it massive. It was cruel and inhumane which got it a lot of publicity and made it seem more massive than it was. More apprehensions doesn't necessarily mean fewer crossings. In fact it was the Republicans who pointed to the huge jump in fentanyl being stopped at the border under Biden's watch and claimed it was because there was a huge jump in the amount of fentanyl coming in. They were wrong of course.

You only need to look at the respective voter bases profiles to realize the Democrats have abandoned the poor for inner city identity politics.


As for immigration According to factcheck.org, border apprehensions increased by 92% in October 2019 before COVID hit.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/10/trumps-numbers-october-2019-update/

Note this organization leans left so they play a sly word game where a " border apprehension" is also called a "border crossing". Hence the ridiculous claim that border crossing increased under Trump-(technically illegal immigrants crossed the border, but the number that were arrested increased by 92% under Trump).

 

[Mofra]

This is worth another reply- you do realize Trumps border was far more effective than the Swiss Cheese Porder control of Biden- actually Harris it was her watch? So who is the party that the Rich Bastards are funnelling their money into to make sure effective border controls never get passed? It aint the Republicans because less illegals go in under Trump!

You do realise Trump torpedoed the bipartisan border bill earlier this year, right?
He doesn't care about borders. He cares about getting elected.

In any case, the 'stronger' the border, the more illegal immigrants stay inside the US.

 

[bresker]

This is long, 25minutes, the first 12 minutes gets to it perfectly. I haven’t posted any YouTube content until I found the one that helps best describe what I am trying to argue for. Freedom of speech as the pinnacle among other ‘western’ values, that some still find a difficult concept. Sam Harris and Konstantin Kisin are modern clear outstanding thinkers of our crazy time. Not of the left or right really, definitely against woke at the far left and fascism of the far right and the authoritarians on both ends.
Sam Harris says “It’s not an accident that -Democracy
-Capitalism
and - Political Freedom
are the engine of our wealth and creativity, all the other alternatives suck. Ideologies that capture things from the top down and make an economy work this way is always a mistake. But that a tidal wave of religious conviction coming to the west, using our values of tolerance and openness and wanting to help and self criticism is using these ideas against us. He goes on to say the confusion with the criticism some prominent women who fled middle eastern draconian regimes have had from modern intellectual feminists is “as upside down and awful as anything in our racist past!” That English girls who are r*ped by grooming gangs in the UK present at the police station in horrible shape get told we can’t prosecute because we will look racist! And conclude that “if liberal won’t police, fascists will!”
Konstantin says that we spent centuries getting to the idea that we were equal before the law and should be judged by our character and that DEI is the opposite of this ideal, and will lead to chaos. And “if you ratchet up chaos people won’t give a shit who brings order”.

I've been thinking about this stuff for a few days. I've been watching YouTube with Peterson interviewing Tommy Robinson. Douglas Murray frothing at the mouth. The riots. The comments section below the cuddly dog whistles from Russell Brand.

All I can say is that the vast, vast majority of people in the UK rub along with each other just fine. There is no issue with free speech. There is no great replacement.

The grooming gangs represented a tiny, tiny minority of men with a Pakistani background. They happened , but they are being used as pure "reds under the bed" bogeymen.

The idea that people with a South Asian background are a threat to free speech is nonsense. Dangerous arrant nonsense. Big brained, suave racists are using dog whistles like "free speech," "grooming gangs" and "threat to democracy" to incite hatred.

Funny how the threats to "our way of life" come from people with brown skin. South Asians first came to the UK in the 50s, with their delicious food. Democracy has been fine since then.

There's plenty wrong with the UK. Unfortunately, fomenting hatred against a subset of people is what always happens in times of trouble. If the rioters in the UK actually protested against injustice I'd be with them.

Edit to add: How is DEI a threat to free speech ? If you don't like the program, you could certainly protest against it. Once again, I see the term "free speech" used in conjunction with "people who don't look like me."

 

[stefcep]

You do realise Trump torpedoed the bipartisan border bill earlier this year, right?
He doesn't care about borders. He cares about getting elected.

In any case, the 'stronger' the border, the more illegal immigrants stay inside the US.

Congress torpedoed it. He wasn't part of it.

All politicians care about being elected-if he's not elected he can't actually do anything

I don't understand your second point- open borders mean less illegal immigration? Since when?

 

[stefcep]

I've been thinking about this stuff for a few days. I've been watching YouTube with Peterson interviewing Tommy Robinson. Douglas Murray frothing at the mouth. The riots. The comments section below the cuddly dog whistles from Russell Brand.

All I can say is that the vast, vast majority of people in the UK rub along with each other just fine. There is no issue with free speech. There is no great replacement.

The grooming gangs represented a tiny, tiny minority of men with a Pakistani background. They happened , but they are being used as pure "reds under the bed" bogeymen.

The idea that people with a South Asian background are a threat to free speech is nonsense. Dangerous arrant nonsense. Big brained, suave racists are using dog whistles like "free speech," "grooming gangs" and "threat to democracy" to incite hatred.

Funny how the threats to "our way of life" come from people with brown skin. South Asians first came to the UK in the 50s, with their delicious food. Democracy has been fine since then.

There's plenty wrong with the UK. Unfortunately, fomenting hatred against a subset of people is what always happens in times of trouble. If the rioters in the UK actually protested against injustice I'd be with them.

What is wrong with a nation having a uniform identity, culture, language and way of life? What is wrong with immigrants assimilating rather than expecting the host to accommodate them? Would that not be more likely to result in social cohesion rather than division. Why shouldn't shouldn't the host nation people be able to express that without being accused of being racists?

More importantly why isn't the government and the public service open and up front to the people about its immigration policy?

 

[bresker]

What is wrong with a nation having a uniform identity, culture, language and way of life? What is wrong with immigrants assimilating rather than expecting the host to accommodate them? Would that not be more likely to result in social cohesion rather than division. Why shouldn't shouldn't the host nation people be able to express that without being accused of being racists?

More importantly why isn't the government and the public service open and up front to the people about its immigration policy?

Most of the people - the great majority - you are talking about don't break any laws or cause any harm to anyone. If someone performs an action, and it's not causing harm, it's none of your business.

Most white people hang out with other white people.

People get along. Britain is a melting pot, like America and Australia. Some people want to return to a mythical homogeneous Britain, as if that'll solve the problems of inequality.

I agree, the government should be open about their policy - people don't make enough babies , and in a system predicated upon relentless economic growth, mass markets need consumers. Hence immigration.

 

[Freshwater]

I've been thinking about this stuff for a few days. I've been watching YouTube with Peterson interviewing Tommy Robinson. Douglas Murray frothing at the mouth. The riots. The comments section below the cuddly dog whistles from Russell Brand.

All I can say is that the vast, vast majority of people in the UK rub along with each other just fine. There is no issue with free speech. There is no great replacement.

The grooming gangs represented a tiny, tiny minority of men with a Pakistani background. They happened , but they are being used as pure "reds under the bed" bogeymen.

The idea that people with a South Asian background are a threat to free speech is nonsense. Dangerous arrant nonsense. Big brained, suave racists are using dog whistles like "free speech," "grooming gangs" and "threat to democracy" to incite hatred.

Funny how the threats to "our way of life" come from people with brown skin. South Asians first came to the UK in the 50s, with their delicious food. Democracy has been fine since then.

There's plenty wrong with the UK. Unfortunately, fomenting hatred against a subset of people is what always happens in times of trouble. If the rioters in the UK actually protested against injustice I'd be with them.

The South Asians aren’t the threat to free speech, the Government is. And because of free speech we can have good natured debate on a variety of topics and cultural issues. They are sensitive issues but not reporting brutal crimes against women because it’s culturally sensitive is not acceptable.
Konstantin and Sam are the perfect people for that, because they are not ‘dog whistling’ or stirring up strife but trying to understand it. That 25 minutes was just perfect and no one who wasn’t blinded to one end of the spectrum or the other could not go away from it disagreeing with their views on our current madness. They were showing us how a lot of governments are creating the vacuum for people like Trump because they are moving away from value's we took thousands to get to.

 

[stefcep]

Most of the people - the great majority - you are talking about don't break any laws or cause any harm to anyone. If someone performs an action, and it's not causing harm, it's none of your business.

Most white people hang out with other white people.

People get along. Britain is a melting pot, like America and Australia. Some people want to return to a mythical homogeneous Britain, as if that'll solve thr problems of inequality.

On the contrary, its actually is MY business. I am a citizen. The government has an obligation to act in the interests of its citizens. When they don't its my duty to protest and do my best to have them removed from office.

You've also contradicted yourself. A melting pot doesn't occur when most whites-who are most of the population- hang out with other whites. That's a divided society.

The only inequality that matters is economic. You solve that be providing opportunity, not by importing more third world immigrants.

 

[stefcep]

The South Asians aren’t the threat to free speech, the Government is. And because of free speech we can have good natured debate on a variety of topics and cultural issues. They are sensitive issues but not reporting brutal crimes against women because it’s culturally sensitive is not acceptable.
Konstantin and Sam are the perfect people for that, because they are not ‘dog whistling’ or stirring up strife but trying to understand it. That 25 minutes was just perfect and no one who wasn’t blinded to one end of the spectrum or the other could not go away from it disagreeing with their views on our current madness. They were showing us how a lot of governments are creating the vacuum for people like Trump because they are moving away from value's we took thousands to get to.

As someone whose parents left Eastern Europe, like Kisl- its disturbing how similarly Western governments are suppressing any public opinion that isn't in accord with their social and economic agendas. They use words like "extremist" to label dissenting opinions, and now are arresting people for what they call "hate speech". Its 1984 in real life which of course was based on Stalin's rule.

 

[H Dolphin]

Most of the people - the great majority - you are talking about don't break any laws or cause any harm to anyone. If someone performs an action, and it's not causing harm, it's none of your business.

Most white people hang out with other white people.

People get along. Britain is a melting pot, like America and Australia. Some people want to return to a mythical homogeneous Britain, as if that'll solve the problems of inequality.

I agree, the government should be open about their policy - people don't make enough babies , and in a system predicated upon relentless economic growth, mass markets need consumers. Hence immigration.

None of those 3 countries now are a melting pot. Only 1 has ever been, the US until comparatively recently. Australia has never been a melting pot, unless you call the intermarriage of the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish pre 1973 with a bit more added from eastern and southern Europeans post WW11, melting, multiculturism saw that off. Despite the ideal that British Subjects from wherever in the World they came could live in Great Britain until the late 1940s, pre 1960s, homogeneity was no myth in Britain.

 

[_Cerberus_]

Congress torpedoed it. He wasn't part of it.

All politicians care about being elected-if he's not elected he can't actually do anything

I don't understand your second point- open borders mean less illegal immigration? Since when?

So those Republicans within his own camp, that came out and publicly confessed that Trump told them to nuke the deal, are just liars then?

 

[Mofra]

So those Republicans within his own camp, that came out and publicly confessed that Trump told them to nuke the deal, are just liars then?

It's incredible the level of cognitive dissonance required to continually support Trump.

 

[Mofra]

I don't understand your second point- open borders mean less illegal immigration? Since when?

The video explains it.

Circular migration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[King Harold]

It's incredible the level of cognitive dissonance required to continually support Trump.

I almost admire their devotion.
It’s hard to think of a more dislikable human being, but they’re up for the fight.

 

[Freshwater]

It's incredible the level of cognitive dissonance required to continually support Trump.

There is definitely rusted on MAGA’s. And of course they have their reasons and you’ll understand some but not others, that politics. What percentage that is, who knows.
But he wins or loses the election by the swinging voters, the voters that have to say him or them. And it’s interesting that there is people that don’t see any issue with the other side? So one eyed. That they are somehow good? I’ve never been more disappointed in all our major parties the world over because we are forgetting what made us flourish.
And as Konstantin and Sam Harris are pointing out is, it chaos is not policed people will vote for anyone to balance the ledger in their mind whether he’s a prick or not.

 

[stefcep]

So those Republicans within his own camp, that came out and publicly confessed that Trump told them to nuke the deal, are just liars then?

Who knows? But he wasn't part of Congress.

 

[stefcep]

The video explains it.

Circular migration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not really.

The key claim is that its good for the immigrant to cycle between home and host, because they can earn a higher income working in their host nation, and get better value for their money by spending it in their poorer home country. I see it at my work-Indians taking advantage of what we have here, and spending their money in India. Good for them, absolute shite for the host nation because the money leaves its economy and doesn't support local business.

Anyway how is that related to illegal immigration increasing with stronger borders?

 

[Thunderoad]

Trump is just plain old boring at this point.

He's been peddling his MAGA vaudeville act on repeat for nine odd years now.

The same victimhood, the same petty grievances, the same narcissism, the same thirst for retribution, the same lines and the same cheap grift.

So, so boring.

 

[VitalDread]

Watching the DNC the last few days has given me so much hope USA will do the right thing
Getting that young vote that were considering not voting is so important for the Dems

 

[Floridog]

What is wrong with a nation having a uniform identity, culture, language and way of life? What is wrong with immigrants assimilating rather than expecting the host to accommodate them? Would that not be more likely to result in social cohesion rather than division. Why shouldn't shouldn't the host nation people be able to express that without being accused of being racists?

More importantly why isn't the government and the public service open and up front to the people about its immigration policy?

I'm just curious as to how far along you are with assimilating into the native culture of your country?

 

[wayniac]

Claim is correct

LOL, did you write the script for Yes Minister?

Let's put some spin on the job statistics, nobody knows the difference between 16 Million and 15.8 Million. It's only a city the size of Stockton.

Wait, Stockton has 320,000 people.

Yes, but they have new jobs, well a few do.

OK the BBC will run with that.

 

[stefcep]

I'm just curious as to how far along you are with assimilating into the native culture of your country?

True blue, dinky di, you beaut Aussie, mate.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

What is wrong with a nation having a uniform identity, culture, language and way of life?

And who exactly gets to define these things?

Im pretty sure I wouldn't want it to be you and you wouldn't want it to be me.

So I presume it's the same people who have had a strangle hold on power in this country since the arrival of the first fleet in 1788.

What is wrong with immigrants assimilating rather than expecting the host to accommodate them?

Generations of migrants have done and will continue to do exactly this.

Cultural diversity has made what was once a backwater of a failing empire into an infinity better place than the complacent, sheep riding, bland, meat and 3 veg, backwards looking monoculture that it was until the the last vestiges of the White Australia policy were removed with the introduction of the The Racial Discrimination Act of 1975.

There was time not so long ago when a night out for some "chow food" at Poons was considered the height of haute cuisine and culture in this town.

Would that not be more likely to result in social cohesion rather than division.

Ask any indigenous Australian about their experience of 250 years of assimilation, social cohesion and inclusion and how thats turned out for them and their entire culture.

Why shouldn't shouldn't the host nation people be able to express that without being accused of being racists?

They can express whatever they like, its a free country.

However, these people shouldn't get all offended when it's pointed out that assimilation policies are inherently racist.

More importantly why isn't the government and the public service open and up front to the people about its immigration policy?

Government policy on migration is quite public.

Its not a question of how many but who, right?

 

[stefcep]

And who exactly gets to define these things?

Im pretty sure I wouldn't want it to be you and you wouldn't want it to be me.

So I presume it's the same people who have had a strangle hold on power in this country since the arrival of the first fleet in 1788.

Yes, of of course! Why wouldn't it be? They created the nation that is Australia.

Generations of migrants have done and will continue to do exactly this.

Cultural diversity has made what was once a backwater of a failing empire into an infinity better place than the complacent, sheep riding, bland, meat and 3 veg, backwards looking monoculture that it was until the the last vestiges of the White Australia policy were removed with the introduction of the The Racial Discrimination Act of 1975.

There was time not so long ago when a night out for some "chow food" at Poons was considered the height of haute cuisine and culture in this town.

Yes but those immigrants were also white Europeans. They assimilated.


And apart from food-which ALWAYS comes up in these pro-immigration debates- what else can you name?

Ask any indigenous Australian about their experience of 250 years of assimilation, social cohesion and inclusion and how thats turned out for them and their entire culture.

Technologically advanced cultures prevail over less advanced ones throughout history. Always was,always will be.

They can express whatever they like, its a free country.

However, these people shouldn't get all offended when it's pointed out that assimilation policies are inherently racist.

No they are not inherently racist. Its not racists to be in favour of selective immigration if it is more beneficial to your nation.

Government policy on migration is quite public.

Its not a question of how many but who, right?

Its a question of both. Neither policy has been articulated. In fact, our government has actively avoided even acknowledging the elephant in the room, until recently when the elephant grew so big their own voters couldn't find a roof over their heads anymore.

 

[bresker]

Governments of both colours allowed mass migration & will continue to allow it. They'll tell you they're only bringing in "the brightest and the best" and keeping out those awful boat people, but your eyes and ears know this isn't true. I have no problem with it. I'm a migrant , it would be bad form if I complained. I imagine it's the same in the US.

You can't put the genie back in the rose coloured bottle and fantasise about a homogeneous land where the milkman knew your name and whistled a happy tune . It's gone.

I took my kids to the mosque open day , we got a look round the place and had some lovely food. I've also got lots of experience teaching Lebanese, Iraqi, and Turkish kids. I didn't get the impression they wanted to white ant the country from within. To help with assimilation the AFL could send some ambassadors to their schools; they are lost to soccer.

Housing is an issue only in that we can't build them quick enough. There are a huge amount of empty homes in the towns I service for work. Dereliction is theft & vandalism .