Analysis The Rebuilds of Geelong and Richmond and their Future Prospects

[Kobe Gryant]

Settle down, Cumberland kicked 3 goals in 1 Q in his 3rd match and 5 in his 5th.
Not saying he's going to do a Cumberland and struggle to back that up, but one week at a time.

What's going on with him anyway?

I must admit, he's one of the few youngsters at Tigerland that I've seen that screamed star in waiting. Looked like he was a good second to Gibcus in that department.

I've heard Dimma wasn't a fan of his, but what's happening now?

 

[FootyLad0]

Settle down, Cumberland kicked 3 goals in 1 Q in his 3rd match and 5 in his 5th.
Not saying he's going to do a Cumberland and struggle to back that up, but one week at a time.

Settle yourself, it was a pun about his huge mark he took and old mate telling us about the "youf" of Richmond last year.

I am a big fan of Cumberland but he's fallen off the face of the Earth. Maybe a move back to QLD might help him.
Can't believe Lions didn't grab him out of the academy and let Tigers take him, he's exactly the kind of utility they need right now.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Settle down, Cumberland kicked 3 goals in 1 Q in his 3rd match and 5 in his 5th.
Not saying he's going to do a Cumberland and struggle to back that up, but one week at a time.

Thankfully Dempsey is a much more rounded player and isn't a liability when he's not kicking goals. He'll likely end up a midfielder and is one of our hardest runners without the ball.

Cumberland can clearly kick goals. But the new coach not even giving him a look in with no Lynch or Martin shows he's miles off it and has massive flaws in his game.

 

[FootyLad0]

Thankfully Dempsey is a much more rounded player and isn't a liability when he's not kicking goals. He'll likely end up a midfielder and is one of our hardest runners without the ball.

Cumberland can clearly kick goals. But the new coach not even giving him a look in with no Lynch or Martin shows he's miles off it and has massive flaws in his game.

Dempsey i believe is one of the best endurance guys at the club so he's got the tank, it's the body strength he needs to grow.

I reckon he's got heaps of potential but coaches keep stifling him by playing him then pulling him out just as quickly.
Lions should have grabbed him out of their academy, he clearly needs confidence. Maybe a position change or a move back to QLD would help?

 

[Footy Smarts]

Dempsey i believe is one of the best endurance guys at the club so he's got the tank, it's the body strength he needs to grow.

I reckon he's got heaps of potential but coaches keep stifling him by playing him then pulling him out just as quickly.
Lions should have grabbed him out of their academy, he clearly needs confidence. Maybe a position change or a move back to QLD would help?

Dempsey's still got a lot of improvement and development. But there's so much to work with in all facets of the game.

With Cumberland I think it's well past time to admit it's not just a one off coach. Why did Brisbane pass on him? Why did Hardwick drop him? Why did McQualter barely play him? Why is Yze not even playing him when Martin and Lynch are missing?

One of those could be a mistake. 4 of them is a pattern. Barring a significant turn around he'll be delisted come year's end.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Thankfully Dempsey is a much more rounded player and isn't a liability when he's not kicking goals. He'll likely end up a midfielder and is one of our hardest runners without the ball.

Cumberland can clearly kick goals. But the new coach not even giving him a look in with no Lynch or Martin shows he's miles off it and has massive flaws in his game.

Yep, only thing holding Dempsey back from the midfield right now is his slender build.

Been mentioned a bit on our board, but one of the players last year was asked about something scary, and they said "Ollie Dempsey 5kgs heavier".

He'll end up doing what we're seeing with Heeney right now. Midfield, then drift forward in transition.

 

[Grrr]

What's going on with him anyway?

I must admit, he's one of the few youngsters at Tigerland that I've seen that screamed star in waiting. Looked like he was a good second to Gibcus in that department.

I've heard Dimma wasn't a fan of his, but what's happening now?

It's a mystery to me. Practice match 2 weeks ago he lit it up kicked 3 goals in the last half and had 3 direct goal assists, 6 of the last 8 goals and is not given a look in.

Has all the talent in the world but his 'body language' let's him down, so it goes. Bizarre. Defensively poor according to Dimma, yet has 8 tackles in an AFL game, not good enough. Kicked 6 after being dropped, (when he was our best forward that game), and is not promoted. Would rather play Rioli Jnr, who hasn't kicked 1 goal in his last 5 matches or Mansell who tries hard. Campbell at least has class. He'll get his turn soon enough. I don't get on my high horse often in regard to players, but this is strange.

 

[Grrr]

Settle yourself, it was a pun about his huge mark he took and old mate telling us about the "youf" of Richmond last year.

I am a big fan of Cumberland but he's fallen off the face of the Earth. Maybe a move back to QLD might help him.
Can't believe Lions didn't grab him out of the academy and let Tigers take him, he's exactly the kind of utility they need right now.

He's exactly the sort of utility we need right now.

 

[Grrr]

Thankfully Dempsey is a much more rounded player and isn't a liability when he's not kicking goals. He'll likely end up a midfielder and is one of our hardest runners without the ball.

Cumberland can clearly kick goals. But the new coach not even giving him a look in with no Lynch or Martin shows he's miles off it and has massive flaws in his game.

I've not seen enough other than highlights of Dempsey but he looks impressive, very good mover.

In regard to Cumberland, I'm not a big one for listening to the negative aspects of a player, more the positive and what them can do. By the time Cumberland came Dimma was all about defence.

It took Toby Greene took until his 4th year to kick 15 goals in a season. Charlie Cameron took 6 years to kick more than 29 goals in a season. Not saying Cumberland has their talent, but he has plenty of it. Green and Cameron had a fair few flaws in their games as well, but they were backed in. Look at Stengle, all over the shop until he was backed in in a good environment. Just took a while to mature. It's round 2 and the VFL hasn't really started so he has time now, if he's good enough.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I've not seen enough other than highlights of Dempsey but he looks impressive, very good mover.

In regard to Cumberland, I'm not a big one for listening to the negative aspects of a player, more the positive and what them can do. By the time Cumberland came Dimma was all about defence.

It took Toby Greene took until his 4th year to kick 15 goals in a season. Charlie Cameron took 6 years to kick more than 29 goals in a season. Not saying Cumberland has their talent, but he has plenty of it. Green and Cameron had a fair few flaws in their games as well, but they were backed in. Look at Stengle, all over the shop until he was backed in in a good environment. Just took a while to mature. It's round 2 and the VFL hasn't really started so he has time now, if he's good enough.

Cumberland is 23. He has never played more than 9 games in a season and is currently a long way back in the pecking order given he didn't play when Lynch and Martin were both out.

By the time he turned 23 Greene had played 98 games and was AA. From the start of 2015 when he was 20, Charlie Cameron played every game when available. Stengle played every game when available in 2020 as a 21 year old despite the drink driving conviction.

These are not comparable players.

 

[Grrr]

Cumberland is 23. He has never played more than 9 games in a season and is currently a long way back in the pecking order given he didn't play when Lynch and Martin were both out.

By the time he turned 23 Greene had played 98 games and was AA. From the start of 2015 when he was 20, Charlie Cameron played every game when available. Stengle played every game when available in 2020 as a 21 year old despite the drink driving conviction.

These are not comparable players.

Cumberland did an ACL in his first preseason '20 and played 7 injury interrupted VFL games in his comeback in '21.
So that was his first 2 seasons.

He then played 11 VFL games and kicked 24 goals before debuting rd. 17. Kicked 19 goals in those 8 games.
Good numbers and a real future talent we thought. He was 21, the same as Dempsey, but Dempsay had played 28 VFL games, not coming of a knee reco.

Last year Hardwick got into him, on national TV and no doubt in private. Didn't do a lot for his confidence when the coach singles you out, deserved or underserved. A few weeks later Hardwick quit, so you might say a bit underserved. As Balta said before rd.1 Hardwick was 'erratic'.

We will see how he responds, different coach. The reason why I compared Cumberland to Green and Cameron, was because in the early stages of their careers, not age, neither had Cumberland's injury history, but games played, they were inconsistent and had flaws in their games, like many young players.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Cumberland did an ACL in his first preseason '20 and played 7 injury interrupted VFL games in his comeback in '21.
So that was his first 2 seasons.

He then played 11 VFL games and kicked 24 goals before debuting rd. 17. Kicked 19 goals in those 8 games.
Good numbers and a real future talent we thought. He was 21, the same as Dempsey, but Dempsay had played 28 VFL games, not coming of a knee reco.

Last year Hardwick got into him, on national TV and no doubt in private. Didn't do a lot for his confidence when the coach singles you out, deserved or underserved. A few weeks later Hardwick quit, so you might say a bit underserved. As Balta said before rd.1 Hardwick was 'erratic'.

We will see how he responds, different coach. The reason why I compared Cumberland to Green and Cameron, was because in the early stages of their careers, not age, neither had Cumberland's injury history, but games played, they were inconsistent and had flaws in their games, like many young players.

I respect that you're supporting your team's player.

But "he's got time"? He's had a full preseason with a new coach and couldn't even make the extended squad for the practice match. The coach didn't need to wait for VFL performances to pick Campbell, Banks or MRJ.

Putting him in the same sentence as Greene and Cameron just looks completely delusional.

 

[Grrr]

I respect that you're supporting your team's player.

But "he's got time"? He's had a full preseason with a new coach and couldn't even make the extended squad for the practice match. The coach didn't need to wait for VFL performances to pick Campbell, Banks or MRJ.

Putting him in the same sentence as Greene and Cameron just looks completely delusional.

How does that happen. MRJ does nothing at VFL level and is picked, and does nothing. Mansell has a great preseason and was injured for 3 weeks and still gets picked. What did he do nothing, except miss a sitter. Campbell had a great preseason evidently, at least he looks like a player. Cumberland nearly wins a game of his own back in the practice match and nothing. The talent is there, those numbers don't lie, but what is missing is anyones guess, unless you are inside at Richmond.

Hardwick's theory was you can't play Martin and Bolton, two unaccountable types, with a similar type. Seems to me the reason why, but give me firepower over defensive ability any day. Richmond are the only side in the league that plays purely defensive forwards, and Mansell and M. Rioli would not make any side in the league. It will right itself, providing Cumberland finds consistency up forward, which is kind of hard when the season is minutes old.

I am not using Green and Cameron as comparable talents, but after 2 years of football they had done nothing much on a consistent basis. Even supremely talented players don't always come in and dominate, you have to back them in and leave them there when they have poor games, which small forwards often do, because the rewards come.

 

[Fadge]

I am not using Green and Cameron as comparable talents, but after 2 years of football they had done nothing much on a consistent basis. Even supremely talented players don't always come in and dominate, you have to back them in and leave them there when they have poor games, which small forwards often do, because the rewards come.

You confused me when you interchanged 'Green' with 'Greene', but in revisiting your original post, it is clear you're referring to Toby Greene.

So you're saying 'after two years of football, Toby Greene had done nothing on a consistent basis'.

You do realise that Toby Greene played midfield in his early years and was runner-up in the GWS best and fairest in his first year?

That Toby Greene?

 

[Footy Smarts]

You confused me when you interchanged 'Green' with 'Greene', but in revisiting your original post, it is clear you're referring to Toby Greene.

So you're saying 'after two years of football, Toby Greene had done nothing on a consistent basis'.

You do realise that Toby Greene played midfield in his early years and was runner-up in the GWS best and fairest in his first year?

That Toby Greene?

Charlie Cameron also finished top 10 in the B&F for Adelaide in his second season on the list (2015). But yeah Cumberland struggling to make the emergencies in his 5th season is the same thing...

 

[Pomsta]

A better comparison for Cumberland would be Ollie Henry. Henry was consistently dropped by Collingwood due to his lack of defensive effort and being too selfish. Geelong pick him up and leave him on the ground and say just kick goals. He's still selfish and defensively unaccountable but he kicks goals because that's what he does well and doesn't have to think as much about chasing a guy 100m up the ground. Cumberland is the same but is asked to do too many things that he's not great at at the detriment of his natural game.

 

[Footy Smarts]

A better comparison for Cumberland would be Ollie Henry. Henry was consistently dropped by Collingwood due to his lack of defensive effort and being too selfish. Geelong pick him up and leave him on the ground and say just kick goals. He's still selfish and defensively unaccountable but he kicks goals because that's what he does well and doesn't have to think as much about chasing a guy 100m up the ground. Cumberland is the same but is asked to do too many things that he's not great at at the detriment of his natural game.

Come on now.

Henry's last VFL game was just after his 20th birthday. Cumberland is 23 and still stuck in the VFL.

You think Chris Scott would play a guy who is "selfish and defensively unaccountable"? Really? I think otherwise.

 

[Mr Meow]

Come on now.

Henry's last VFL game was just after his 20th birthday. Cumberland is 23 and still stuck in the VFL.

You think Chris Scott would play a guy who is "selfish and defensively unaccountable"? Really? I think otherwise.

We're getting some real straw clutching comparisons lately.

Short term it was win-win with Collingwood getting Mitchell who was essential for squeezing out that flag. Long term they'd love to still have Henry. As would Richmond.

 

[Daka]

The Cats had some good young players on the weekend but they are still heavily relient on there best players firing like we would be.
Danger doesn't play they lose to the Saints at home.

 

[Footy Smarts]

We're getting some real straw clutching comparisons lately.

Short term it was win-win with Collingwood getting Mitchell who was essential for squeezing out that flag. Long term they'd love to still have Henry. As would Richmond.

Think we're going to do the Abletts next? I heard their first few years were both inconsistent.

 

[Mr Meow]

The Cats had some good young players on the weekend but they are still heavily relient on there best players firing like we would be.
Danger doesn't play they lose to the Saints at home.

Best of both worlds.

We would've sorely missed Holmes, Dempsey or Bruhn's impact much like Dangerfield, Cameron or Stewart's.

This was the model you suggested is the best way to bring kids up to speed and ready for the handover.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Practice match 2 weeks ago he lit it up kicked 3 goals in the last half and had 3 direct goal assists, 6 of the last 8 goals and is not given a look in.

Cumberland nearly wins a game of his own back in the practice match and nothing.

I love that you just drop this amazing performance in a practice match in. Pretty harsh. How could he not have been picked? What is the coach thinking?

So I checked the squad against Collingwood for the practice match. Squad of 26 plus 4 emergencies and Nankervis, Vlastuin, Banks and Mansell all out. Still no Cumberland named even as an emergency. He wasn't in the first 34 players named at Richmond. So you're referring to a VFL practice match.

Take a look at the superstars he went up against. Yeah I wonder why that game didn't shoot him into contention.

VFL team selected to take on Richmond

The Club’s VFL side will take on Richmond in their first official practice match of 2024 on Tuesday, heading to Punt Road for the matinee clash.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

 

[Fadge]

Come on now.

Henry's last VFL game was just after his 20th birthday. Cumberland is 23 and still stuck in the VFL.

You think Chris Scott would play a guy who is "selfish and defensively unaccountable"? Really? I think otherwise.

And I reckon the only reason he was playing VFL was because Collingwood's season was over and he had one foot out the door.

 

[Fadge]

I love that you just drop this amazing performance in a practice match in. Pretty harsh. How could he not have been picked? What is the coach thinking?

So I checked the squad against Collingwood for the practice match. Squad of 26 plus 4 emergencies and Nankervis, Vlastuin, Banks and Mansell all out. Still no Cumberland named even as an emergency. He wasn't in the first 34 players named at Richmond. So you're referring to a VFL practice match.

Take a look at the superstars he went up against. Yeah I wonder why that game didn't shoot him into contention.

VFL team selected to take on Richmond

The Club’s VFL side will take on Richmond in their first official practice match of 2024 on Tuesday, heading to Punt Road for the matinee clash.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Hang on...

I just realised there's a Silvagni on Collingwood's VFL list!

 

[Taper]

I don't see it but finals is definitely on the cards.
I reckon we need De Koning to desperately break out and become a star defender. I think right now, he's doing what many 23yr old kpp's do, struggling with consistency until they hit 75-100 games.

Holmes is on the verge of breaking out as it is but in order to bridge the gap on those teams who have a quartet of star mids entering 100-150 games, Cats need a bit more from the midfield. Had we snagged Parish, that would have really bolstered our chances. Just seem to be one elite mid short at the minute.

It's fun though. Never quite going out of contention and seemingly remaining in the mix (like Sydney)

Not just midfield but ruck too.
Defence and forward lines are both very strong.

Also, it's been a good ride for a long time for our supporter base.

Never finished below 12th.
Haven't won a wooden spoon since 1958.
Haven't finished bottom 4 since 1986.
Haven't sacked a coach since 1988.