List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 7

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tiger_tough said:
Yeah, hopefully we've learnt our lesson. Our drafting of mids, particularly early on in the draft has been atrocious for a long time now. It has set us back.
Click to expand...
Personally don’t think it’s been that bad

Not ideal but not absolutely terrible either

Even guys like Conca who some consider a “bad” pick isn’t as bad as people like to act like it was
Still managed 150 games and actually showed to be a capable midfielder when he went to Freo it was just when he was with us he was pushed out by other guys who suited the midfield mix better

The only two who I have as standout disappointments are C Ellis and RCD but if you look at the pick in itself without layers of information that simply didn’t exist at the time the reasoning behind picking them was sound
 
Muddiemoose said:
Personally don’t think it’s been that bad

Not ideal but not absolutely terrible either

Even guys like Conca who some consider a “bad” pick isn’t as bad as people like to act like it was
Still managed 150 games and actually showed to be a capable midfielder when he went to Freo it was just when he was with us he was pushed out by other guys who suited the midfield mix better

The only two who I have as standout disappointments are C Ellis and RCD but if you look at the pick in itself without layers of information that simply didn’t exist at the time the reasoning behind picking them was sound
Click to expand...
To reply to both of you, I do sort of think we've been bad at drafting decent midfielders.

If you consider a strong midfielder a guy who can get it around 25 or more times every week, how many have we drafted in recent memory, those pure midfield types?

Aside from Cotchin who is now retired, I can't really think of one.

  • Dusty yes, but he is more of a fwd/mid, he really only spent 2017 and 2018 as more of a pure midfielder getting 25-35 a week. Was also drafted a long time ago.
  • Bolton, a great pick for where we got him, but like Dusty is more of a fwd/mid.
  • Edwards, became a midfielder after also being a fwd/mid, and we didn't see him play a full/long career as a pure midfielder. He had a few good games there around 2015, blossomed there 2017-2020, then fell off a cliff.

  • Prestia, we traded for him.
  • Taranto, we traded for him.
  • Hopper, we traded for him.

  • Ross, not a high pick but certainly looked like one in 2019, has since then been turned into a flanker and now a winger, so no longer counts as a midfielder unless Yze aims to put him back.
  • Graham, pure inside mid initially like Ross that also wasn't a top pick and also looked great early doors, that has sadly turned out kind of average and has been stuffed around with position too.

Outside of Dow (pretty crap), Sonsie (looking shaky), RCD (horrible and now gone), what other midfielders have we drafted in recent memory? Conca yes, also a very long time ago now.

As you can see, not only do we not seem to draft pure midfielders well, we very rarely seem to at ALL. It's something we need to fix.

Can we learn anything from Collingwood? Their key position stocks are a combination of OK and woeful outside of Darcy Moore, and they're nothing special at half-back, and have bang-average rucks, but they have a very good midfield combined with a very good small-forward group. Obviously the right game style too.

Based on this, and I've said it for quite a few years now, you really need to focus on your midfield, it's where games are won especially in finals. Look at the Coleman medallist... barely registered a possession across three finals yet the Blues were in it up to their necks from the start of an Elimination final right up until quarter time of a Prelim.

I digress.

Yes, Richmond needs to do better at drafting midfielders ASAP.
 
RobsJourney said:
To reply to both of you, I do sort of think we've been bad at drafting decent midfielders.

If you consider a strong midfielder a guy who can get it around 25 or more times every week, how many have we drafted in recent memory, those pure midfield types?

Aside from Cotchin who is now retired, I can't really think of one.

  • Dusty yes, but he is more of a fwd/mid, he really only spent 2017 and 2018 as more of a pure midfielder getting 25-35 a week. Was also drafted a long time ago.
  • Bolton, a great pick for where we got him, but like Dusty is more of a fwd/mid.
  • Edwards, became a midfielder after also being a fwd/mid, and we didn't see him play a full/long career as a pure midfielder. He had a few good games there around 2015, blossomed there 2017-2020, then fell off a cliff.

  • Prestia, we traded for him.
  • Taranto, we traded for him.
  • Hopper, we traded for him.

  • Ross, not a high pick but certainly looked like one in 2019, has since then been turned into a flanker and now a winger, so no longer counts as a midfielder unless Yze aims to put him back.
  • Graham, pure inside mid initially like Ross that also wasn't a top pick and also looked great early doors, that has sadly turned out kind of average and has been stuffed around with position too.

Outside of Dow (pretty crap), Sonsie (looking shaky), RCD (horrible and now gone), what other midfielders have we drafted in recent memory? Conca yes, also a very long time ago now.

As you can see, not only do we not seem to draft pure midfielders well, we very rarely seem to at ALL. It's something we need to fix.

Can we learn anything from Collingwood? Their key position stocks are a combination of OK and woeful outside of Darcy Moore, and they're nothing special at half-back, and have bang-average rucks, but they have a very good midfield combined with a very good small-forward group. Obviously the right game style too.

Based on this, and I've said it for quite a few years now, you really need to focus on your midfield, it's where games are won especially in finals. Look at the Coleman medallist... barely registered a possession across three finals yet the Blues were in it up to their necks from the start of an Elimination final right up until quarter time of a Prelim.

I digress.

Yes, Richmond needs to do better at drafting midfielders ASAP.
Click to expand...
Think you are conflating two separate things in this post

You are criticising our midfield recruitment (fair enough agree to disagree that’s fine)

But comparing us to Collingwood’s list strategy and that is two separate things since our lists are in different places

Collingwood’s midfield is one of if not the oldest in the comp and bar a kiss on the dick generational talent father son in the same period that you are critical of our midfield recruitment how exactly has Collingwood drafted better in that department?
They have been trying to top up with midfielders from outside a lot more than what we have (Treloar, Tom Mitchell, T Adams, J Crisp) all regulars in the pies midfield over the past 5 years and recruited from outside

Only one they actually drafted in recent years is Degoey and he was the 2014 draft

Since than they have literally drafted zero notable afl midfielders

It’s easy to focus on us because we watch every single pick of ours and who makes it and who doesn’t but every single club in the comp have a similar strike rate

It’s just that we don’t take notice of the one the other clubs miss because we aren’t invested

But like I said
Sit down and take a look over the pies, or any other club’s recruiting over the same period and look at the players taken, what picks used and who made it you’ll see we are in step with the rest of the comp

Comparing us now to Collingwood now isn’t a like for like comparison

A better one would be comparing Collingwood now to us 4 - 5 years ago when our lists are in the same phase

Or our list right now to Collingwood’s in 2 - 3 years time when their core has aged out and will enter a similar transition period to what we are in right now
 

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Muddiemoose said:
Personally don’t think it’s been that bad

Not ideal but not absolutely terrible either

Even guys like Conca who some consider a “bad” pick isn’t as bad as people like to act like it was
Still managed 150 games and actually showed to be a capable midfielder when he went to Freo it was just when he was with us he was pushed out by other guys who suited the midfield mix better

The only two who I have as standout disappointments are C Ellis and RCD but if you look at the pick in itself without layers of information that simply didn’t exist at the time the reasoning behind picking them was sound
Click to expand...
Conca, RCD, Dow, Sonsie, Ross, Graham, Ellis etc etc. Pretty ****ing putrid overall.
 
tiger_tough said:
Conca, RCD, Dow, Sonsie, Ross, Graham, Ellis etc etc. Pretty ******* putrid overall.
Click to expand...
Guess it depends on your definition of putrid and expectation of the player relative to the pick used to draft them with

Still early to call Dow and Sonsie

RCD and Ellis didn’t make it

Ross looks like he will be a 150 game ish player taken with pick 43

Graham 200 game plus player taken pick 53

Conca was a par relative to the pick used but not a total waste notching up over 150 sr game’s during his career

Is pretty decent and you would be hard pressed to find better drafting elsewhere

Go have a look at all the top midfielders in the comp and how many have come outside the top 10 picks in the draft
Also take note of how old they are given they didn’t just walk in as start up top tier players the day they got drafted either

That Bolton guy who we have lighting up our midfield is pretty decent but he seems to get forgotten about during these discussions for some reason
 
tiger_tough said:
Conca, RCD, Dow, Sonsie, Ross, Graham, Ellis etc etc. Pretty ******* putrid overall.
Click to expand...

I’ve said this before on other similar topics, but we need to add context.

As Muddie said, Conca played 150 games. That’s not the sign of a bad player. Was also taken in 2010 under a different recruitment regime

RCD and Dow were - despite being in the first round - selected with picks in the 20s (ie second round talent). Jury still out on Dow but at that pick you’re either going high risk high reward or low risk low reward. I’ve asked the question previously of both picks, who would have taken at the time ahead of those two?

Sonsie - too early to tell. Look good year one but regressed year two. Not the only player that’s ever done that.

Ross - had a good season, can’t write him off yet.

Graham - I mean, a pick 50+ who played in two premierships which would have been three if he didn’t do his shoulder in a preliminary final.

Ellis - a definite miss.

It’s not a record to write home about, but it’s also not putrid. Considering what picks were used, and what team they were drafted into, I’d say it’s an okay record.
 
RobsJourney said:
To reply to both of you, I do sort of think we've been bad at drafting decent midfielders.

If you consider a strong midfielder a guy who can get it around 25 or more times every week, how many have we drafted in recent memory, those pure midfield types?

Aside from Cotchin who is now retired, I can't really think of one.

  • Dusty yes, but he is more of a fwd/mid, he really only spent 2017 and 2018 as more of a pure midfielder getting 25-35 a week. Was also drafted a long time ago.
  • Bolton, a great pick for where we got him, but like Dusty is more of a fwd/mid.
  • Edwards, became a midfielder after also being a fwd/mid, and we didn't see him play a full/long career as a pure midfielder. He had a few good games there around 2015, blossomed there 2017-2020, then fell off a cliff.

  • Prestia, we traded for him.
  • Taranto, we traded for him.
  • Hopper, we traded for him.

  • Ross, not a high pick but certainly looked like one in 2019, has since then been turned into a flanker and now a winger, so no longer counts as a midfielder unless Yze aims to put him back.
  • Graham, pure inside mid initially like Ross that also wasn't a top pick and also looked great early doors, that has sadly turned out kind of average and has been stuffed around with position too.

Outside of Dow (pretty crap), Sonsie (looking shaky), RCD (horrible and now gone), what other midfielders have we drafted in recent memory? Conca yes, also a very long time ago now.

As you can see, not only do we not seem to draft pure midfielders well, we very rarely seem to at ALL. It's something we need to fix.

Can we learn anything from Collingwood? Their key position stocks are a combination of OK and woeful outside of Darcy Moore, and they're nothing special at half-back, and have bang-average rucks, but they have a very good midfield combined with a very good small-forward group. Obviously the right game style too.

Based on this, and I've said it for quite a few years now, you really need to focus on your midfield, it's where games are won especially in finals. Look at the Coleman medallist... barely registered a possession across three finals yet the Blues were in it up to their necks from the start of an Elimination final right up until quarter time of a Prelim.

I digress.

Yes, Richmond needs to do better at drafting midfielders ASAP.
Click to expand...
I agree with you about our drafting of mids and was spewing that we didn't take Hobbs, he was just the sort of ball winning inside mid that we needed, however, we did address that need by trading in Taranto and Hopper.

Collingwood's midfield is bog average though with very little, ie: non existent, depth. Outside of Pendlebury (who played mostly HB earlier in the year)and Mitchell, who is the 'in and under' ball winner. De Goey rotates through there but is primarily a mid/forward, as does Crisp but the rest are ball receivers. Now that they've lost Adams (who was injured a lot of the time and a butcher of the ball) an injury to one or both of Pendlebury or Mitchell would see them really struggle.

What the Pies did was copy our manic pressure all over the ground that we displayed during our successes and hurt oppos on the rebound with speed, run and carry. It covered their deficiencies in all of the KP's on the ground, from defence to ruck to forwards and as you said, really only Moore as an AA KPP.

The fact that they won 8 games during the H&A season by 14pts or under (and only lost 1 game within that margin) helped them immensely, they then went on to win their 3 finals by 7pts, 1pt and 4pts respectively. Obviously umpiring bias had no affect on these results.

Compare those stats in close games for the Tigers during the H&A season where we had 3 wins and 4 losses by 14pts or under, again, umpiring bias had no affect on these results.. If we had the same ratio as the Pies then we would've finished on 13 wins and played finals. Conversely, if the Pies had a ratio like ours then they would have finished on 14 wins and outside the top 4.
 
Muddiemoose said:
Personally don’t think it’s been that bad

Not ideal but not absolutely terrible either

Even guys like Conca who some consider a “bad” pick isn’t as bad as people like to act like it was
Still managed 150 games and actually showed to be a capable midfielder when he went to Freo it was just when he was with us he was pushed out by other guys who suited the midfield mix better

The only two who I have as standout disappointments are C Ellis and RCD but if you look at the pick in itself without layers of information that simply didn’t exist at the time the reasoning behind picking them was sound
Click to expand...

Conca was a poor kick given the sheer volume of talent that went after him. Caddy, Heppell, Prestia, Lynch, Smith, Guthrie, Cripps, Darling, Howe, Parker, McDonald. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but sheesh a lot of guns went after him. He was a B grade player at best.

Ben Lennon? Loads of good players went after him too.

Agree on Ellis and RCD. Wasted picks and we are probably struggling for mature talent now because of it.
 
Muddiemoose said:
Personally don’t think it’s been that bad

Not ideal but not absolutely terrible either

Even guys like Conca who some consider a “bad” pick isn’t as bad as people like to act like it was
Still managed 150 games and actually showed to be a capable midfielder when he went to Freo it was just when he was with us he was pushed out by other guys who suited the midfield mix better

The only two who I have as standout disappointments are C Ellis and RCD but if you look at the pick in itself without layers of information that simply didn’t exist at the time the reasoning behind picking them was sound
Click to expand...
what about all the picks we've used from and including the 2018 draft ? thats 5 drafts in total,i cant think of 1 name off the top of my head other than TT thats done anything and had any impact whatso ever,the overwhelming majority have been & are, spuds.
jury is still out on Gibcus,was ok in 1st year.
 
lumpinee said:
what about all the picks we've used from and including the 2018 draft ? thats 5 drafts in total,i cant think of 1 name off the top of my head other than TT thats done anything and had any impact whatso ever,the overwhelming majority have been & are spuds
Click to expand...
Bit rough on a few like Jack Ross Cumbo and Ryan

And it’s far to early to make any real claims about our 2021 crop who are only 2nd year players this year but all shown enough to suggest they could be very good players for us
(Gibcus, Clarke, Brown and Sonsie)

Seems like you have an unrealistic expectation of how kids develop and expect them to be best 22 within the first year or two

Not even shai Bolton broke into the 22 consistently until his 3rd/4th year

Need to look at the actual picks we had available as well
 

Naismith becomes a Tiger​

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
By Richmond Media - Just now
Article-2-.png



www.richmondfc.com.au

Naismith becomes a Tiger

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
www.richmondfc.com.au www.richmondfc.com.au
 
4tune8 said:
I agree with you about our drafting of mids and was spewing that we didn't take Hobbs, he was just the sort of ball winning inside mid that we needed, however, we did address that need by trading in Taranto and Hopper.

Collingwood's midfield is bog average though with very little, ie: non existent, depth. Outside of Pendlebury (who played mostly HB earlier in the year)and Mitchell, who is the 'in and under' ball winner. De Goey rotates through there but is primarily a mid/forward, as does Crisp but the rest are ball receivers. Now that they've lost Adams (who was injured a lot of the time and a butcher of the ball) an injury to one or both of Pendlebury or Mitchell would see them really struggle.

What the Pies did was copy our manic pressure all over the ground that we displayed during our successes and hurt oppos on the rebound with speed, run and carry. It covered their deficiencies in all of the KP's on the ground, from defence to ruck to forwards and as you said, really only Moore as an AA KPP.

The fact that they won 8 games during the H&A season by 14pts or under (and only lost 1 game within that margin) helped them immensely, they then went on to win their 3 finals by 7pts, 1pt and 4pts respectively. Obviously umpiring bias had no affect on these results.

Compare those stats in close games for the Tigers during the H&A season where we had 3 wins and 4 losses by 14pts or under, again, umpiring bias had no affect on these results.. If we had the same ratio as the Pies then we would've finished on 13 wins and played finals. Conversely, if the Pies had a ratio like ours then they would have finished on 14 wins and outside the top 4.
Click to expand...
All very good analysis. Can we get that pressure back with these new plodders in the middle?

My only counterpoint is that all of Pendlebury, Sidebottom, De Goey, Adams (yes now gone, and yes he butchered the ball but his role was forcing it forward rather than precision, much like most of our players in the dynasty did), Mitchell, Crisp, N Daicos, can get the ball 30 times, and they can often have multiple of them do it all in the same game. We simply do not see that in our midfield. People say it's not about numbers but you need your midfield finding the footy, absolutely.

I will say, as a biased Richmond supporter who really does have a case against the umps (you only need to look at the free kick ladders since and including 2017 where we are dead last every season or close to), and someone who should despise Collingwood, I thought Brisbane had a better run with the umps in the Grand Final. Only that final moment was really a bit WTF, but in those crazy final moments I'm sure everyone on the field - including the umps - was having an out-of-body experience; it would have been nuts so I doubt the umps had a hand in anything that day.
 

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AstuteTiger said:

Naismith becomes a Tiger​

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
By Richmond Media - Just now
Article-2-.png



www.richmondfc.com.au

Naismith becomes a Tiger

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
www.richmondfc.com.au www.richmondfc.com.au
Click to expand...
Great result. Provided his body is OK, he's genuinely quite a bit better footballer than Soldo.
 
AstuteTiger said:

Naismith becomes a Tiger​

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
By Richmond Media - Just now
Article-2-.png



www.richmondfc.com.au

Naismith becomes a Tiger

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
www.richmondfc.com.au www.richmondfc.com.au
Click to expand...
farrk, they photoshopped bradtke's 6XL guernsey onto him
 
AstuteTiger said:

Naismith becomes a Tiger​

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
By Richmond Media - Just now
Article-2-.png



www.richmondfc.com.au

Naismith becomes a Tiger

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
www.richmondfc.com.au www.richmondfc.com.au
Click to expand...
just watched the interview

fmd we are going to play him with nank going off that
 
AstuteTiger said:
Surely it will start as Nank and Ryan. Naismith should be backup unless he shines in the preseason and overshadows Ryan.
Click to expand...
they will prob start nank and naismith going off that
 
AstuteTiger said:

Naismith becomes a Tiger​

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
By Richmond Media - Just now
Article-2-.png



www.richmondfc.com.au

Naismith becomes a Tiger

Richmond has signed Sam Naismith as a delisted free agent.
www.richmondfc.com.au www.richmondfc.com.au
Click to expand...
Guy's got knees like I have now...welcome and good luck hitting those oppo bodies!
 
tiger_tough said:
All of Nank, Naismith, Ryan, Kozi, Miller, Colina and Hayes-Smith are going to line up round 1.
Click to expand...
Would still make Pickett take a few centre bounces imo
 
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