Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[ShanDog]

No from what I saw, they say that the analysis they have read finds that psychosocial intervention has less supporting evidence than puberty blockers.

Yep, so very similar - no significant evidence that they work. But the conclusion she came to from that was ridiculous. One is talk therapy, the other is blocking puberty which - once again for those with heads in the sand - is absolutely not reversible and comes with significant potential side effects for life.

 

[The Tilt]

Analysis of the Cass report:



Many flaws discussed including lack of explanation for exclusion and inclusion of data - even from within the same study.

The recommendation in the Cass report of alternative psychosocial interventions for gender incongruence, which has no supporting evidence (low quality and inadequate reporting of what little research exists), while puberty blockers have some evidence of effectiveness. This is from the review's own findings.

Covers the fact that the Cass review's preliminary findings led to rolling back of gender affirming care for trans children in the NHS, while the full report says that the review "is not about rolling back people's rights to healthcare".

Scientific flaws covered first, then finishes off discussing inclusion of input from an anti-trans group with 600 members, as mentioned by Gralin and others, to show that the flaws in the output of the review have a root in biased input from openly anti-trans groups.

A third of interviewed healthcare professionals identified with the view "there is no such thing as a trans child". Self-selected group with no attempt to exclude biased healthcare professionals.

"Inherently and blatantly biased" according to one review of the Cass Report.

Another highlights issues with "scientific substantiation in the review, calling into question the robustness of the evidence the review bases its claims on".

Misrepresented or changed data.

eg: A study cited by Cass but with entirely incorrect numbers. ASC represented as increasing from 1.8% to 15.1% instead of 13.8% to 15.1%. Typo? Deliberate fudge with plausible deniability? Who knows. Assume the worst from the anti-trans zealots.

Besides that study, "no consistent co-occurrence of ASC (autism) and gender dysphoria is reported". It is a shame if ShanDog does not want to be here to discuss this as it was one of his biggest supporting claims for his "something's wrong here!" vibe.

Incredible.

Just so hard to know who to trust here.
a) Eminent paediatrician, former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health who has conducted a four year expert review, mostly consisting of the highest available standard of evidence (systematic reviews) supported by leading researchers; or
b) Random activist I found on Youtube.

 

[ShanDog]

It is a slur.

You then said you didn't want to take part. I mentioned you so I thought it was reasonable to @ you for a reply.

Complete nonsense.
I'm sure it can be said in a way that is meant to be deliberately hurtful, much like many things can be. That doesn't elevate it to the level of a slur which should never be uttered.

But I'm fine to agree to disagree on that.

 

[Gralin]

Yep, so very similar - no significant evidence that they work. But the conclusion she came to from that was ridiculous. One is talk therapy, the other is blocking puberty which - once again for those with heads in the sand - is absolutely not reversible and comes with significant potential side effects for life.

If it's not reversible then how do they use it to delay puberty?

 

[Chief]

Complete nonsense.

But saying "trans women aren't women" is by default meant as a slur. Hardly anybody uses it in any other way.

I'm sure it can be said in a way that is meant to be deliberately hurtful,

That's about the only way that phrase is used.

If you want to present a definition of "woman" and "man", then explain why you think the former doesn't apply to trans women, that's not a big problem.

 

[Chief]

Yep, so very similar - no significant evidence that they work.

Only if you mess around with your definitions of "evidence" so that puberty blockers fall just short of the tape.

Meanwhile psychosocial interventions haven't left the starting line, but the Cass report prefers them? Might as well recommend leeches.

 

[ShanDog]

If it's not reversible then how do they use it to delay puberty?

You can't undo years of growth without pubescent hormones. The YOUNG kids who use puberty blockers to stop them getting puberty well before they are supposed to are only on them until puberty is not a problem. Delaying puberty vs stopping it is very different.

There's a wealth of info out there about the issues puberty blockers can cause for those using them to treat gender dysphoria. I'm not making an argument, I'm staying what is already known. I suggest reading it.

 

[Gralin]

You can't undo years of growth without pubescent hormones. The YOUNG kids who use puberty blockers to stop them getting puberty well before they are supposed to are only on them until puberty is not a problem. Delaying puberty vs stopping it is very different.

There's a wealth of info out there about the issues puberty blockers can cause for those using them to treat gender dysphoria. I'm not making an argument, I'm staying what is already known. I suggest reading it.

Puberty blockers are not "irreversible" as you keep saying

You're not discussing in either good faith or facts when writing that

You talk about everyone elses raging biases yet act like you have none yourself.

The cass report said there wasn't enough evidence about puberty blockers to make an argument yet here you are suggesting that there is enough evidece

 

[ShanDog]

Only if you mess around with your definitions of "evidence" so that puberty blockers fall just short of the tape.

You're obfuscating. It doesn't matter to which nth degree one method or another works more when we are talking about a lack of significant evidence for either - it doesn't affect the point I made in any way.

Meanwhile psychosocial interventions haven't left the starting line, but the Cass report prefers them? Might as well recommend leeches.

And you're making the same mistake.

If you have the choice between two treatments which have essentially the same chance of 'success', then why on earth would you choose the one that alters an adolescent's body chemistry and comes with significant side effects? Knowing what we know, that would be the decision of a quack.

 

[Gralin]

One treatment is conversion therapy

Anyway I'm out this is just going to go in the same circles it always does

 

[ShanDog]

Puberty blockers are not "irreversible" as you keep saying

You're not discussing in either good faith or facts when writing that

You talk about everyone elses raging biases yet act like you have none yourself.

Bullshit. You are flat out wrong. I'm not engaging with you on this any more. Read the material. I'm not going around in circles about something that is clear.

The cass report said there wasn't enough evidence about puberty blockers to make an argument yet here you are suggesting that there is enough evidece

Not enough evidence as to their efficacy for a treatment of gender dysphoria. Are these reports too complicated for you? Or are you lying?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

But saying "trans women aren't women" is by default meant as a slur. Hardly anybody uses it in any other way.

Catherine McGregor (whom I admire very much) says she is not a woman, but a trans woman.
We don’t hear too much from trans men insisting on being called men and wanting to compete with and against men in contact, endurance and sports requiring speed and strength. Why is that? Surely the same “rules” should apply.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

And what do you mean it's a shame if I don't want to be here? I very much have wanted to be, up until I was incorrectly threadbanned and then told the phrase 'trans women aren't women' was a slur.

And before you have a crack, you brought this up good Sir. I was fine with the dirty laundry being kept inside.

The thread ban was correct.

 

[ShanDog]

The thread ban was correct.

I'm sure you think that

 

[ShanDog]

Besides that study, "no consistent co-occurrence of ASC (autism) and gender dysphoria is reported".

Where did you get this from in the video? I flicked through and couldn't find it.

The higher rates of autism (as well as other psychiatric conditions) among those with gender dysphoria is pretty well established. You'll find that info everywhere from studies in the Nature journal to the websites of Autism support websites too.

 

[Chief]

Just so hard to know who to trust here.
a) Eminent paediatrician, former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health who has conducted a four year expert review, mostly consisting of the highest available standard of evidence (systematic reviews) supported by leading researchers; or
b) Random activist I found on Youtube.

Don't make yourself look silly.

If you want to comment, watch the video and see that she is discussing an analysis by an expert.

It's not her own direct analysis because, as she said, this isn't her direct field and she waited for someone more qualified to comment. Analyses she read showed a number of pretty big flaws, and a big mis-match in the review's findings compared to the NHS's over the top response.

So, she's looking far more credible than a snarky poster on a football forum.

If you want reassurance that your bigotry is well founded, listen to this:

BBC World Service - More or Less, Is misinformation being spread about a review of trans youth medicine?

Investigating claims that the Cass Review ignored 98% of valuable evidence

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Chief]

Where did you get this from in the video? I flicked through and couldn't find it.

From 6 minutes.

 

[ShanDog]

From 6 minutes.

Yeah I listened through that - where does it say there's no consistent co-occurrence of ASD and gender dysphoria?

 

[Chief]

Yeah I listened through that - where does it say there's no consistent co-occurrence of ASD and gender dysphoria?

So if I have it right, this analysis says the Taylor et al study wrongly reported the Morandini et al study, and the Cass review took Taylor and reported that it shows co-morbidity with ASC.

The Taylor numbers are wildly wrong (13.8% Morandini compared to Cass repeating the Taylor 1.8% figure), and as the Cass review has nothing else but Taylor, the data is not consistent and the conclusion can't be drawn.

This looks like a missed opportunity if they draw a conclusion when the data is wrong, and they could have used the profile of the report to initiate better studies.

This video points people to the full text of this analysis, where it seems other errors in the Cass report that are harder to explain are explained in full.

 

[ShanDog]

View attachment 2022203

So if I have it right, this analysis says the Taylor et al study wrongly reported the Morandini et al study, and the Cass review took Taylor and reported that it shows co-morbidity with ASC.

The Taylor numbers are wildly wrong (13.8% Morandini compared to Cass repeating the Taylor 1.8% figure), and as the Cass review has nothing else but Taylor, the data is not consistent and the conclusion can't be drawn.

This looks like a missed opportunity if they draw a conclusion when the data is wrong, and they could have used the profile of the report to initiate better studies.

This video points people to the full text of this analysis, where it seems other errors in the Cass report that are harder to explain are explained in full.

Ah, I was listening and not watching the video to catch that line in the text.

Seems like the report the YouTuber is talking about is saying that the Cass review doesn't report a consistent link between autism and gender dysphoria except for in one study. Kind of a nothing burger statement to be honest, and a weird one to bring up since there's lots of data to conclude that the rates of autism among gender dysphoria people is much higher than the rest of the population.

 

[Chief]

Kind of a nothing burger statement to be honest,

They drew a conclusion based on a wildly inaccurate number. Seems like a hugeburger to me.

and a weird one to bring up since there's lots of data to conclude that the rates of autism among gender dysphoria people is much higher than the rest of the population.

The question then is, why did Cass not reference that data?

This analysis says there is no consistency on this across studies. What is the current consensus? Doesn't seem to be one.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But saying "trans women aren't women" is by default meant as a slur. Hardly anybody uses it in any other way.

That's about the only way that phrase is used.

This is subject to opinion and that creates problems.

This allows the assumption that anyone who uses this term is by default a transphobe (and that is counterproductive to the debate), when that's not true. It's fair opinion that many who use this term aren't using it with the intent to slur.

They're using it because they genuinely don't believe trans women are women, they're purely looking at it from biological perspective.

 

[Chief]

This is subject to opinion and that creates problems.

This allows the assumption that anyone who uses this term is by default a transphobe (and that is counterproductive to the debate), when that's not true. It's fair opinion that many who use this term aren't using it with the intent to slur.

They're using it because they genuinely don't believe trans women are women, they're purely looking at it from biological perspective.

Which is why they should explain rather than throwing it out as a one-liner and expecting everyone not to assume they're being hateful.

 

[ShanDog]

The question then is, why did Cass not reference that data?

This analysis says there is no consistency on this across studies. What is the current consensus? Doesn't seem to be one.

No idea. When you google the phrase "autism and transgender rates", what do you make of the results?

 

[Chief]

No idea. When you google the phrase "autism and transgender rates", what do you make of the results?

I'll le you know, but is a Google search going to give me a full overview of all of the data available?