Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[wannabejack]

Russia warned they didnt want Nato close to Moscow, for many years and many times over. easy to youtube putin warning about this exact thing. But Nato did Nato things and this is the end result. yes or no?

Here we go again.
Early into his first term as an elected president in 2000-2004, Putin radiated optimism about what he believed would be a Euro-centric, or even an Atlantic-centric, future for Russia and some of its post-Soviet neighbors. It might be difficult to fathom today, but, in the early 2000s, Putin discussed Russia’s possible accession to NATO with Lord Robertson and reportedly Bill Clinton, and pursued a partnership with the alliance. Around the same time, Putin continued his predecessor’s policy of harmonizing Russia’s laws and regulations with the EU’s—even viewing Ukraine’s would-be membership in the bloc as a “positive factor.” “Of course, Russia is a very diverse country, but we are part of Western European culture,” Putin said in 2000. “No matter where our people live, in the Far East or in the south, we are Europeans.”

 

[Vassp]

Estonia (NATO), 640 Km to Moscow
Latvia (NATO), 583 Km to Moscow
Ukraine, 450 Km to Moscow

How close is close?

the closer the less time long-range missiles take to hit targets.

 

[Vassp]

Here we go again.
Early into his first term as an elected president in 2000-2004, Putin radiated optimism about what he believed would be a Euro-centric, or even an Atlantic-centric, future for Russia and some of its post-Soviet neighbors. It might be difficult to fathom today, but, in the early 2000s, Putin discussed Russia’s possible accession to NATO with Lord Robertson and reportedly Bill Clinton, and pursued a partnership with the alliance. Around the same time, Putin continued his predecessor’s policy of harmonizing Russia’s laws and regulations with the EU’s—even viewing Ukraine’s would-be membership in the bloc as a “positive factor.” “Of course, Russia is a very diverse country, but we are part of Western European culture,” Putin said in 2000. “No matter where our people live, in the Far East or in the south, we are Europeans.”

I'm against all wars, there is more behind this one than meets the eye is what I'm saying.

 

[wannabejack]

I'm against all wars, there is more behind this one than meets the eye is what I'm saying.

No, what you were saying is that it's NATO's fault that russia invaded and is committing genocide in Ukraine.

 

[wannabejack]

the closer the less time long-range missiles take to hit targets.

Estonia (NATO), 338 km to St. Petersburg
Finland (NATO), 461 km to St. Petersburg
Ukraine, 850 km to St. Petersburg

 

[Vassp]

No, what you were saying is that it's NATO's fault that russia invaded and is committing genocide in Ukraine.

WHAT IM SAYING IS FYI that i hate all wars, and there is more to this than meets the eye. please read my post without your BIAS.

 

[Vassp]

Estonia (NATO), 338 km to St. Petersburg
Finland (NATO), 461 km to St. Petersburg
Ukraine, 850 km to St. Petersburg

I Believe Putin was talking about Moscow.

 

[Zidane98]

the closer the less time long-range missiles take to hit targets.

Laughable. At the speeds cruise / ballistic missiles travel 133kms in distance makes no discernible difference to the result. We're talking a matter of seconds here. Launches are detected immediately anyway, this is what is responded to in a war.


Also, Ukraine is not a NATO member while Baltic states are.

 

[Zidane98]

WHAT IM SAYING IS FYI that i hate all wars, and there is more to this than meets the eye. please read my post without your BIAS.

No you don't. You hate all wars except for the ones Russians are waging. Pretty obvious from your postings.

 

[faible]

Russia warned they didnt want Nato close to Moscow, for many years and many times over. easy to youtube putin warning about this exact thing. But Nato did Nato things and this is the end result. yes or no?

 

[Vassp]

No you don't. You hate all wars except for the ones Russians are waging. Pretty obvious from your postings.

Are you for real? please don't make stuff up, what is in your mind and what I think are totally different -thank god for that!

Also the closer the range the less time for impact, thought that is obvious?

 

[Zidane98]

Here we go again.
Early into his first term as an elected president in 2000-2004, Putin radiated optimism about what he believed would be a Euro-centric, or even an Atlantic-centric, future for Russia and some of its post-Soviet neighbors. It might be difficult to fathom today, but, in the early 2000s, Putin discussed Russia’s possible accession to NATO with Lord Robertson and reportedly Bill Clinton, and pursued a partnership with the alliance. Around the same time, Putin continued his predecessor’s policy of harmonizing Russia’s laws and regulations with the EU’s—even viewing Ukraine’s would-be membership in the bloc as a “positive factor.” “Of course, Russia is a very diverse country, but we are part of Western European culture,” Putin said in 2000. “No matter where our people live, in the Far East or in the south, we are Europeans.”

Also Putin in 2003 signed and ratified a treaty with Ukraine on the border between the two nations and Ukranian sovereignty. It's still on the Kremlin website lol

President Vladimir Putin signed a law ratifying the Treaty between Russia and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian State Border

en.kremlin.ru

Also Putin in 2008

Vladimir Putin, Is That You?

Russia's President Vladimir Putin was once an ardent defender of Ukraine's borders. Don't believe it? Watch the video.

www.rferl.org

 

[wannabejack]

the closer the less time long-range missiles take to hit targets.

I guess it goes both ways as proven by russia with its missiles killing innocent men, women and children and the destruction of towns and villages.

 

[Zidane98]

Are you for real? please don't make stuff up, what is in your mind and what I think are totally different -thank god for that!

Also the closer the range the less time for impact, thought that is obvious?

The time difference between impact is mere seconds for the 133kms difference in range between Baltic states to Moscow & Ukraine to Moscow.

Trying to argue that makes a real and discernible difference in a nuclear missile exchange is laughable.

 

[The Terrible Thinker]

the closer the less time long-range missiles take to hit targets.

Most cruise missiles go 800 Km/h, ballistic missiles go 1,000 to 3,000 Km/h. I don't think time is relevant in this situation at these ranges anyway.

 

[Zidane98]

Most cruise missiles go 800 Km/h, ballistic missiles go 1,000 to 3,000 Km/h. I don't think time is relevant in this situation at these ranges anyway.

In any case one doesn't wait for impact to return fire. Launch detection & verification is far more important than a measly 133kms like some are trying to claim.

 

[Andre]

Russia warned they didnt want Nato close to Moscow, for many years and many times over. easy to youtube putin warning about this exact thing. But Nato did Nato things and this is the end result. yes or no?

This all falls apart as soon as you see Russia did nothing against Sweden, Finland or NATO in general, for them joining. Finland who actually added hundreds of Km's of NATO border with Russia on joining. If Russia had pulled troops from Ukraine to, at a minimum, reinforce the border with Finland, this might have some validity as an argument, but they've stripped military bases around it to go to Ukraine.

Unless you are saying that actually being in NATO makes you safe from Russian aggression, in which case, being so anti-war, you must want Ukraine in ASAP?

 

[Zidane98]

This all falls apart as soon as you see Russia did nothing against Sweden, Finland or NATO in general, for them joining. Finland who actually added hundreds of Km's of NATO border with Russia on joining. If Russia had pulled troops from Ukraine to, at a minimum, reinforce the border with Finland, this might have some validity as an argument, but they've stripped military bases around it to go to Ukraine.

Unless you are saying that actually being in NATO makes you safe from Russian aggression, in which case, being so anti-war, you must want Ukraine in ASAP?

1343km to be exact.

To go along with the 200km Norway / Russia border to the north.


Tankies generally just try and handwave this off by saying anyone attacking Russia wouldn't do so through Finland.


Ignoring the fact that the USSR attacked Finland across the very same border prior to WW2.


It is an absolute fact that if Putin was really concerned about NATO he would definitely build up & militarise a nearly 1500km border with the alliance.

 

[rank and file]

Russia invaded Ukraine illegally, yes or no.
Russia getting 10,000 soldiers from North Korea escalated the war, yes or no.

Russia invaded Ukraine illegally you say for the thousandth time.
Bot like behaviour.

 

[faible]

This all falls apart as soon as you see Russia did nothing against Sweden, Finland or NATO in general, for them joining. Finland who actually added hundreds of Km's of NATO border with Russia on joining. If Russia had pulled troops from Ukraine to, at a minimum, reinforce the border with Finland, this might have some validity as an argument, but they've stripped military bases around it to go to Ukraine.

Unless you are saying that actually being in NATO makes you safe from Russian aggression, in which case, being so anti-war, you must want Ukraine in ASAP?

Plot twist: Vassp believes Russia should rightly invade Finland in response to NATO expansion.

 

[Zidane98]

The best way for nations to not seek NATO protection is if Russia acts responsibly as a international world power and accepts that the era of imperialistic dreams is over - for good.

Russia should be looking to restore its NATO security partnership again.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Russia invaded Ukraine illegally you say for the thousandth time.
Bot like behaviour.

Indeed and of course you would agree with me on that.
Now think IF Pixie Putin had engaged his brain before he invaded Ukraine he wouldn't be facing the threats he is now, but because he didn't engage his brain he is.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The best way for nations to not seek NATO protection is if Russia acts responsibly as a international world power and accepts that the era of imperialistic dreams is over - for good.

Russia should be looking to restore its NATO security partnership again.

It won't do that all the while Putin runs the country, and the consequences it faces while he runs the country.

 

[Zidane98]

It won't do that all the while Putin runs the country, and the consequences it faces while he runs the country.

It wasn't always that way with him in the 00s. I think he got Tsar like ambitions in his head about a new Russian empire when he took 4 years off the presidency. Anyone who disagreed with that was seen as a threat to Putin back then and still to this very day.

 

[Vassp]

The time difference between impact is mere seconds for the 133kms difference in range between Baltic states to Moscow & Ukraine to Moscow.

Trying to argue that makes a real and discernible difference in a nuclear missile exchange is laughable.

Again you love putting words in my mouth, seconds are seconds, and seconds could mean the difference between interception or failure to intercept.

Anyway, I said ...so you know- and stop making crap up pls, why is the USA supplying long-range missiles to Ukraine- if it wants to de-escalate the war? Shouldn't they be looking to a peaceful end to the war?