Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I'm not here to suggest what Putin should have or should not have done.
Putin is the representative of the Russian capitalist oligarchy.

Whatever Putin did, it would have represented a conspiracy against both the Russian and the Ukrainian working class.

The working class has to build a party which understands that both the Putin and the Zelensky regimes must be overthrown in a common struggle to stop the war.

Had Putin not invaded it is likely zelensky would have collapsed anyway (my recall was that he was unpopular due to failing to deal with corruption issues)

 

[Zidane98]

Another rapid unintended detonation Rostov area

 

[Mobbs]

Can't link on phone, but if you google Oleg Borisenko, you can find a Wagnerite who opposes Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Already on probation for antiwar views, he was recently I'm hot water being spotted with the trident on his casual clothes while skating.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Anzacpaul]

Challenge you Caspar.

Debate me on any topic you like.

Prove that I'm an idiot and you're not.

expect to hear crickets.

No one needs to prove that you're an idiot, it's on display.

 

[Andre]

Saw references to a couple of ATMs getting set alight a day or two ago. Didn't read too much into it. But the cases of arson are starting to become a bit too numerous to ignore.

I'd love to see the people of Russia get a bit more patriotic and fight to take their country back in the way Ukrainian people have been, however I'm not sure seemingly random acts of anarchic vandalism is the best way to go about it. Of course, a collaborative uprising is barely even possible due to the level of oppression the RF expresses nationwide - the means might need to be more abstract. Maybe there's some method here, or maybe it's just random acts.

The frustration is growing, but as you note, the police state is too all seeing to risk public displays. The Russian economy is already in trouble with their reserves running down and the simultaneous need to raise interest rates to fight inflation and lower interest rates to stimulate scarce non-war spending.

These incidents add to the already numerous issues with maintenance of planes, sewers, heating etc. that aren't being done due to lack of people (conscripted or in military production) and replacement parts (sanctions). None will individually break Putin/the Russian state, but they all accelerate the economic collapse that very tiny bit more. The thing with very tiny, is enough very tiny effects together ends up having a big effect.

 

[IlovethePies]

No one needs to prove that you're an idiot, it's on display.

Yeah, admit, I opened myself up for that one.

You've got the usual band of morons/extreme right wing mouthpieces giving you a like.

But Paulie, you're just a woos, because all you do is come on here and try to deliver a few cheap shots, without ever saying what your opinion is.

 

[Mobbs]

From youtube daily traffic data, though the writer I couldn't identify:



️ "YouTube is blocked in Russia" — the site is almost not working, and the platform's traffic in Russia has fallen by 80%

Traffic volume has fallen to a record low of 20% and the slowdown continues to intensify. Experts note that this is "essentially a blocking of YouTube in Russia."


If youtube barely works in Russia, prepare for bots on the search for a new home.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mobbs]

From Denys Davydov tg. He's clearly just quoted another source, but he didn't state which. I might find more on the Russian newspaper sites but the concentrate more around nsk etc.

Stalin Drawing Competition Held in Irkutsk

The Oktyabrsky District Committee of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation in Irkutsk celebrated the 145th anniversary of Stalin's birth. The schoolchildren who participated in the event recited poems about the leader of the Soviet Union and presented his portraits that they had painted themselves.

"We are seeing a very good trend. The younger generation is starting to take a greater interest in their history and respect Stalin. Despite the fact that there is anti-Stalin propaganda and anti-Soviet propaganda in our country, the younger generation is slowly beginning to see the light,"
said Komsomol member Nikita Kalinin, talking about the class hours dedicated to Stalin that Komsomol members held in schools.

According to him, the children prepared about 40 drawings for the competition.

The event was organized by the “Our Stalin” society, whose official pages state that its tasks are “dissemination of reliable and truthful knowledge about Stalin and his era,” “collection and storage of Stalin’s works,” “participation in the patriotic and moral education of the younger generation of Irkutsk residents,” and others.

Edit: Found a link at Siberian Realities newspaper website:

Иркутск: школьники нарисовали портреты Сталина

Дети нарисовали их на посвященных диктатору классных часах

www.sibreal.org

 

[Zidane98]

Stalin carved up Europe into East & West in collaboration with the Nazis.

Yet he is a hero in Russia.

 

[Andre]

Stalin carved up Europe into East & West in collaboration with the Nazis.

Yet he is a hero in Russia.

As various experts on Russia have said, you can trace a lot of Russia's (/Putin's) actions to the fact, that being on the winning side in WWII, they never had to face consequences for everything they, under Stalin's command, did with the Nazi's (and on their own like starve Ukraine with the Holodomor). This continued with no introspection after the collapse of the USSR, about the purges, and suppression of parts of Eastern Europe post-WWII. It was just quietly pretend it didn't happen.

If/when the Putin regime finally is finished, if it isn't just another ex-KGB / FSB guy in charge, they need some sort of truth and reconciliation commission. Until Russia and Russians face and admit the many mistakes / atrocities they've made the last 100 years or so, no country will be able to trust another Russian leader won't be trying the same shit in 10 or 20 years. Whilst such a commission wouldn't guarantee ongoing trust, it'd be a strong first step to restoring trust, by starting the long overdue change in Russian (general population) attitude of what their country is and how it sits in the world.

If you asked most people in the UK these days if they should look to be an Empire again most would assume you've hit the Christmas drinks early, Russian attitudes are still trapped in the 19th / early 20th century.

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Aussie in exile]

Russia is getting more desperate every day.
Just give Ukraine more weapons to finish the job off.

 

[Andre]

Don’t worry, they’ll be old enough to die int the trenches soon enough. Russia doing there best to ensure they have an uneducated future diminishing workforce, unable to drag them into the 21st century anytime soon.

 

[barreness]

Stalin carved up Europe into East & West in collaboration with the Nazis.

Yet he is a hero in Russia.

Bet you wouldn't say that to someone who was in concentration camps liberated by the red army.

A more conspiratorial mind than mine would think you're trying to lessen nazi crimes. The fact is Europe was carved up between the US and the USSR after(thankfully) defeating the Nazis

 

[barreness]

As various experts on Russia have said, you can trace a lot of Russia's (/Putin's) actions to the fact, that being on the winning side in WWII, they never had to face consequences for everything they, under Stalin's command, did with the Nazi's (and on their own like starve Ukraine with the Holodomor). This continued with no introspection after the collapse of the USSR, about the purges, and suppression of parts of Eastern Europe post-WWII. It was just quietly pretend it didn't happen.

lol, you missed something

De-Stalinization (Russian: десталинизация, romanized: destalinizatsiya) comprised a series of political reforms in the Soviet Union after the death of long-time leader Joseph Stalin in 1953, and the thaw brought about by ascension of Nikita Khrushchev to power,[1] and his 1956 secret speech "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences", which denounced Stalin's cult of personality and the Stalinist political system.

Monuments to Stalin were removed, his name was removed from places, buildings, and the state anthem, and his body was removed from the Lenin Mausoleum (known as the Lenin and Stalin Mausoleum from 1953 to 1961) and buried
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization

If/when the Putin regime finally is finished, if it isn't just another ex-KGB / FSB guy in charge, they need some sort of truth and reconciliation commission. Until Russia and Russians face and admit the many mistakes / atrocities they've made the last 100 years or so, no country will be able to trust another Russian leader won't be trying the same shit in 10 or 20 years. Whilst such a commission wouldn't guarantee ongoing trust, it'd be a strong first step to restoring trust, by starting the long overdue change in Russian (general population) attitude of what their country is and how it sits in the world.

If you asked most people in the UK these days if they should look to be an Empire again most would assume you've hit the Christmas drinks early, Russian attitudes are still trapped in the 19th / early 20th century.

Britain has been under the delusions of empire for the last 80 years, it's only now that the commoners are realising as they slip into poverty

 

[Mobbs]

Interesting little video explaining a bit more about the Ursa Major which sank in the Mediterranean very recently.

 

[IlovethePies]

As various experts on Russia have said, you can trace a lot of Russia's (/Putin's) actions to the fact, that being on the winning side in WWII, they never had to face consequences for everything they, under Stalin's command, did with the Nazi's (and on their own like starve Ukraine with the Holodomor). This continued with no introspection after the collapse of the USSR, about the purges, and suppression of parts of Eastern Europe post-WWII. It was just quietly pretend it didn't happen.

If/when the Putin regime finally is finished, if it isn't just another ex-KGB / FSB guy in charge, they need some sort of truth and reconciliation commission. Until Russia and Russians face and admit the many mistakes / atrocities they've made the last 100 years or so, no country will be able to trust another Russian leader won't be trying the same shit in 10 or 20 years. Whilst such a commission wouldn't guarantee ongoing trust, it'd be a strong first step to restoring trust, by starting the long overdue change in Russian (general population) attitude of what their country is and how it sits in the world.

If you asked most people in the UK these days if they should look to be an Empire again most would assume you've hit the Christmas drinks early, Russian attitudes are still trapped in the 19th / early 20th century.

This is the most outrageous post of historical falsification I have seen in a whiile.

Putin totally repudiates the October Revolution. He has called it a disaster for Russia.

The USSR suffered no consequences for being on the ""winning side"???

Try 28 million dead, you ignoramus.

Of course they (the Stalinist bureaucracy) had no introspection about the collapse of the Soviet Union...the Stalinist bureaucrats were the very ones who engineered it, in order to transform themselves into propery owning capitalist oligarchs.

Then, as part of their repulsive propaganda campaign, they did pretend to care about the suppression of Eastern Europe. They said that this was due to the Communist dictatorship (which they themselves had supported when it was convenient). Claiming with the most disgusting hypocricy to care about the ruthless Stalinist repression in Eastern Europe, they claimed now to be "fighting for democracy" by bringing back capitalism.

You are, whether or not you understand, typing in historical revisionism of the most disgusting nature.

 

[Andre]

This is the most outrageous post of historical falsification I have seen in a whiile.

Putin totally repudiates the October Revolution. He has called it a disaster for Russia.

The USSR suffered no consequences for being on the ""winning side"???

Try 28 million dead, you ignoramus.

Of course they (the Stalinist bureaucracy) had no introspection about the collapse of the Soviet Union...the Stalinist bureaucrats were the very ones who engineered it, in order to transform themselves into propery owning capitalist oligarchs.

Then, as part of their repulsive propaganda campaign, they did pretend to care about the suppression of Eastern Europe. They said that this was due to the Communist dictatorship (which they themselves had supported when it was convenient). Claiming with the most disgusting hypocricy to care about the ruthless Stalinist repression in Eastern Europe, they claimed now to be "fighting for democracy" by bringing back capitalism.

You are, whether or not you understand, typing in historical revisionism of the most disgusting nature.

As usual you missed the point. No one, including all of us against what Russia is doing now, don't dispute Russia carried a terrible burden during the Second World War. My point, was they inflicted a lot of suffering on others and fellow Russians during the war, due to collaboration with the Nazi's and Stalin's purges afterwards. Of course it doesn't really matter what I posted, in some way it'd end up having been the fault of the Capitalist West, with only a global socialist revolution by the working classes solving the issue.

 

[IlovethePies]

As usual you missed the point. No one, including all of us against what Russia is doing now, don't dispute Russia carried a terrible burden during the Second World War. My point, was they inflicted a lot of suffering on others and fellow Russians during the war, due to collaboration with the Nazi's and Stalin's purges afterwards. Of course it doesn't really matter what I posted, in some way it'd end up having been the fault of the Capitalist West, with only a global socialist revolution by the working classes solving the issue.

^I have replied to this post in the Backdrop thread.

 

[IlovethePies]

lol, you missed something

De-Stalinization (Russian: десталинизация, romanized: destalinizatsiya) comprised a series of political reforms in the Soviet Union after the death of long-time leader Joseph Stalin in 1953, and the thaw brought about by ascension of Nikita Khrushchev to power,[1] and his 1956 secret speech "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences", which denounced Stalin's cult of personality and the Stalinist political system.

Monuments to Stalin were removed, his name was removed from places, buildings, and the state anthem, and his body was removed from the Lenin Mausoleum (known as the Lenin and Stalin Mausoleum from 1953 to 1961) and buried
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization

Kruschev's secret speech in 1956 whicvh admitted only a few of the crimes of Stalin was an attempt by the Stalinist bureaucracy after Stalin's death to legitimise themselves by distancing themselves from Stalin.

As the subsequent events in Europe showed (Hungarian Revolution drowned in blood, Prague spring, etc ) the Stalinist regime was exactly of the same nature as under Stalin.

"De Stalinisation" was a propaganda lie to try to present the dictatorship within the Soviet Union and across Eastern Europe in a better light.

This was due to the growing crisis of the Stalinist national dictatorships which had absolutely no connection with socialism, and the never ending opposition to their rule.

 

[IlovethePies]

Stalin carved up Europe into East & West in collaboration with the Nazis.

Yet he is a hero in Russia.

Actually Stalin carved up Europe not with the Nazis but with Churchill and Truman at Potsdam
Merry Xmas, to a person lacking knowledge. (wish to be polite in the festive season)

 

[rank and file]

Interesting little video explaining a bit more about the Ursa Major which sank in the Mediterranean very recently.

Russian dark fleet getting picked off will grind it to a halt.
I think at the moment Russsia is to big to fail.
Feel sorry for the NK lads,never got told.

Merry Xmas Mobbs

 

[Mobbs]

Agitated by Fico's visit to Moscow, Slovakians gathered to protest the relationship between their Prime Minister and the Russian regime.

Protests took place in Bratislava in response to Robert Fico's visit to Putin

According to media reports, thousands of people gathered outside the Slovak government building yesterday to protest Fico's visit.

Those present held, among other things, Ukrainian flags and posters with inscriptions in support of Ukraine, and also called Fico a traitor.

Former Prime Minister of Slovakia Eduard Heger said during the demonstration that it is up to the protesters to ensure that Slovakia as a country does not have a bad image, unlike the Slovak government.

 

[Zidane98]

Bet you wouldn't say that to someone who was in concentration camps liberated by the red army.

A more conspiratorial mind than mine would think you're trying to lessen nazi crimes. The fact is Europe was carved up between the US and the USSR after(thankfully) defeating the Nazis

I'd love to see you repeat the absolute pro Russian lies you post on here in Kyiv to Ukrainians who had had their children kidnapped and gone through Russian filtration camps.

 

[Zidane98]