Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

Lord you just don’t ****ing get it.

Russian guys with the IQ of an brick shot at the passenger aircraft, just like other Russian guys with the IQ of bricks shot a missile at MH17.

Get it? Russians were responsible for shooting at it, and then diverted it elsewhere hoping it would crash into the Caspian Sea leaving no evidence behind.

Not NATO, not Ukraine, not the capitalists in Washington/Brussels, not the roadhouse selling pies in Wagga Wagga. No one else to blame except the Russian ****wits who shot at it.

Thats where your Russian propaganda shines like a bright beaming lighthouse.

This is completely nonsensical.

What interest would Russia have in deliberately crippling a passenger aircraft with an anti missile defence system?

You and you're co-thinkers here are the ones wearing tin foil hats.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Explain how this is Russian propaganda.

I clearly state that the Putin regime is responsible.

Just because I point out the equal culpability of Ukraine/NATO, you revert to your usual smear campaign.

It all goes back to the "unprovoked war" narrative. According to the imperialist propaganda (and the extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists whose views are reflected in what you post here), Putin is a monstrous, evil, fascist who one day woke up and decided he wanted to conquer Ukraine. There was no other reason he did this, than his own insanely evil nature.

Therefore, according to this fantasy, everything that happens is the fault of one man...

Even if NATO gives Zelensky a tactical nuclear weapon and he instigates WW3 by dropping it on Moscow, it will still just be the fault of Putin, according to you and those like you.

Again I say to you if Putin hadn't illegally invaded Ukraine there wouldn't be the position there is now.
Lets face facts. Putin is responsible for the deaths of 3/4 million Russian soldiers.
Putin, yes the same man is responsible for the death of Ukrainian soldiers and Ukrainian civilians.
This is all about Putin's ego combined with his little man syndrome.

 

[wannabejack]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/28/world/video/putin-apology-azerbaijan-airlines-plane-crash-ukraine-motive-digvid

"To much evidence to ignore or deny"

"What Putin is setting up here, is the blame Ukraine for it’s aggression defence."

 

[Frank Grimes]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/28/world/video/putin-apology-azerbaijan-airlines-plane-crash-ukraine-motive-digvid

"To much evidence to ignore or deny"

"What Putin is setting up here, is the blame Ukraine for it’s aggression defence."

The "Look at what you made me do! How could you do this to me?!" defence (aka the wife beater justification).

 

[Visions]

The "Look at what you made me do! How could you do this to me?!" defence (aka the wife beater justification).

Or the rape defence. “She was wearing a provocative outfit so was asking for it.”

Russian propaganda trolls will do anything to apportion blame elsewhere.

 

[IlovethePies]

Justin Crump, an intelligence, security and defense expert and the CEO of risk advisory company Sibylline, told BBC Radio 4 on Thursday that the plane being fired at by Russia is “the best theory that fits all the available facts that we know of.” Crump added that Russian air defenses were active in Grozny around the time that the plane was damaged.

“I don’t think this is deliberate at all,” he noted, pointing out that Russia is “very worried” about longer-range active Ukrainian drones that are “very often not getting shot down.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/26/asia/kazakhstan-plane-crash-questions-intl/index.html

 

[Visions]

This is completely nonsensical.

What interest would Russia have in deliberately crippling a passenger aircraft with an anti missile defence system?

You and you're co-thinkers here are the ones wearing tin foil hats.

No one is saying it was deliberate.

It doesn’t mean they aren’t solely to blame for shooting it down, unlike you with you never ending trolling linking it to NATO, etc.

When a drunk driver kills a pedestrian crossing the road, it wasn’t deliberate but you don’t blame the person who was serving him alcohol, or the car manufacturer for putting the car in his hands, solely on the driver themselves!

 

[Zidane98]

Or the rape defence. “She was wearing a provocative outfit so was asking for it.”

Russian propaganda trolls will do anything to apportion blame elsewhere.

It has to be Ukraine's fault. Never Russia's fault.

 

[IlovethePies]

No one is saying it was deliberate.

It doesn’t mean they aren’t solely to blame for shooting it down, unlike you with you never ending trolling linking it to NATO, etc.

When a drunk driver kills a pedestrian crossing the road, it wasn’t deliberate but you don’t blame the person who was serving him alcohol, or the car manufacturer for putting the car in his hands, solely on the driver themselves!

Totally flawed analogy.

The circumstances of a drunk individual making the personal choice to drive a car cannot be compared with the circumstances of a war zone.

Ukraine is attacking Russian civilian centres with drones.

Russia is inevitably going to attempt to intercept them.

Two actions: 1) launching drone attacks and 2) firing defensive missiles both of which tend to occur because there is a war zone.

Who is responsible for this warzone?

The US/NATO governments and the Russian government.

I can't help it if you believe in fairy tales like "unprovoked wars" and as a result you lose the ability to reason.

 

[Visions]

Totally flawed analogy.

The circumstances of a drunk individual making the personal choice to drive a car cannot be compared with the circumstances of a war zone.

Yes it can. Very similar. Drunk deadshit Russian muppets manning an AA station making the personal choice to shoot down a plane. They didn’t have to.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Totally flawed analogy.

The circumstances of a drunk individual making the personal choice to drive a car cannot be compared with the circumstances of a war zone.

Ukraine is attacking Russian civilian centres with drones.

Russia is inevitably going to attempt to intercept them.

Two actions: 1) launching drone attacks and 2) firing defensive missiles both of which tend to occur because there is a war zone.

Who is responsible for this warzone?

The US/NATO governments and the Russian government.

I can't help it if you believe in fairy tales like "unprovoked wars" and as a result you lose the ability to reason.

How about Russia taking responsibility by failing to make the area a no fly zone if they had air defence set up in the area and know Ukraine were flying drones in the area?

The responsibility is mostly with Russia's incompetence of allowing civillian planes fly in the air space of a war zone.

 

[rank and file]

How about Russia taking responsibility by failing to make the area a no fly zone if they had air defence set up in the area and know Ukraine were flying drones in the area?

The responsibility is mostly with Russia's incompetence of allowing civillian planes fly in the air space of a war zone.

How about declaring a no fly zone over over Ukraine,would've stop Russia in its tracks years ago.

 

[Zidane98]

Totally flawed analogy.

The circumstances of a drunk individual making the personal choice to drive a car cannot be compared with the circumstances of a war zone.

Ukraine is attacking Russian civilian centres with drones.

Russia is inevitably going to attempt to intercept them.

Two actions: 1) launching drone attacks and 2) firing defensive missiles both of which tend to occur because there is a war zone.

Who is responsible for this warzone?

The US/NATO governments and the Russian government.

I can't help it if you believe in fairy tales like "unprovoked wars" and as a result you lose the ability to reason.

Ukraine isn't attacking civilian centers, that's an outrageous lie only a blatant pro Russian troll could possibly post.

Your leader Adolf Putin is to blame. Murdered 298 civilians on MH17, refused responsibility and has done it again as a result.

 

[wannabejack]

Russian explanations for Azeri plane crash were delusional, says Azerbaijan’s President - Euromaidan Press

Aliev says Azerbaijan Airlines Flight JS-8432 was shot down from the ground near Russia's Grozny.

euromaidanpress.com

Aliyev [president of Azerbaijan] also revealed that Russia’s ‘Carpet’ operation, which requires immediate landing or evacuation of all non-military and non-rescue aircraft from the declared area, was announced only after the AZAL aircraft had already sustained damage.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Totally flawed analogy.

The circumstances of a drunk individual making the personal choice to drive a car cannot be compared with the circumstances of a war zone.

Ukraine is attacking Russian civilian centres with drones.

Russia is inevitably going to attempt to intercept them.

Two actions: 1) launching drone attacks and 2) firing defensive missiles both of which tend to occur because there is a war zone.

Who is responsible for this warzone?

The US/NATO governments and the Russian government.

I can't help it if you believe in fairy tales like "unprovoked wars" and as a result you lose the ability to reason.

I repeat again and you continually ignore it is that this is all down Putin's ego, little man syndrome.
Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine is the cause of civilians deaths in Ukraine and Russia nobody else, as without his illegal invasion there wouldn't be civilian deaths

 

[IlovethePies]

How about declaring a no fly zone over over Ukraine,would've stop Russia in its tracks years ago.

The whole point is that tragic accidents will inevitably occur in war zones.

So if you are looking to determine who is fundamentally responsible for this tragedy, you must determine who is responsible for this war.

And if you reject fairy tales like the narrative of Putin launching an "unprovoked war", you will sheet home the blame where it really lies: to the Ukraine and NATO alliance who did everything possible they could to provoke a confrontation with Russia, and with Putin for making the catastrophic decision to invade Ukraine.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The whole point is that tragic accidents will inevitably occur in war zones.

So if you are looking to determine who is fundamentally responsible for this tragedy, you must determine who is responsible for this war.

And if you reject fairy tales like the narrative of Putin launching an "unprovoked war", you will sheet home the blame where it really lies: to the Ukraine and NATO alliance who did everything possible they could to provoke a confrontation with Russia, and with Putin for making the catastrophic decision to invade Ukraine.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine illegally?

 

[Mobbs]

Maybe they thought it was Santa Claus.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes it can. Very similar. Drunk deadshit Russian muppets manning an AA station making the personal choice to shoot down a plane. They didn’t have to.

Still a stupid analogy, filled with racist stereotypes as well.

 

[Zidane98]

Still a stupid analogy, filled with racist stereotypes as well.

Russian is a nationality, not a race.

Just goes to show how deeply intertwined you are with Russian propaganda & lies. Ukrainians & Russians are both slavic.

Your claim of racism is moronic & dishonest in the extreme.

Standards are dropping over at the internet research agency it seems.

 

[Zidane98]

This from one of Putin's chief propagandists.


Imagine anyone trying to claim the war was about NATO and the US.

 

[Zidane98]

Azerbaijan calls out Putin over shootdown




Russia initially tried to claim that an oxygen cylinder exploded and / or also claimed a bird strike as the cause behind the Azerbaijan airlines tragedy.


Imagine if the pilots couldn't have hung on and the plane crashed in the Caspian sea. Russia's culpability would have remained undetected until wreckage and / or black box recovery. Russia of course wouldn't have assisted with this being the guilty party.

 

[wannabejack]

...

And if you reject fairy tales like the narrative of Putin launching an "unprovoked war", you will sheet home the blame where it really lies: to the Ukraine and NATO alliance who did everything possible they could to provoke a confrontation with Russia, and with Putin for making the catastrophic decision to invade Ukraine.

Putin has always been more concerned about the loss of control over russia’s perceived sphere of influence than about a NATO threat to russia.
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022 because he believed that NATO was weak and because his efforts to regain control of Ukraine by other means had failed.

Before russia’s invasion of Crimea (2014) Ukraine was non-aligned. This is forgotten by those who argue that Putin’s goal is Ukraine’s neutrality.
Ukraine's parliament voted to drop the country's non-aligned status and work towards NATO membership on December 23 2014. russia’s illegal annexation (invasion) of Crimea and its military intervention in eastern regions of Ukraine is what pushed Ukraine closer to NATO.
NATO didn’t come looking for Ukraine to join. russia's actions pushed Ukraine to seek NATO membership.

 

[Zidane98]

Putin has always been more concerned about the loss of control over russia’s perceived sphere of influence than about a NATO threat to russia.
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022 because he believed that NATO was weak and because his efforts to regain control of Ukraine by other means had failed.

Before russia’s invasion of Crimea (2014) Ukraine was non-aligned. This is forgotten by those who argue that Putin’s goal is Ukraine’s neutrality.
Ukraine's parliament voted to drop the country's non-aligned status and work towards NATO membership on December 23 2014. russia’s illegal annexation (invasion) of Crimea and its military intervention in eastern regions of Ukraine is what pushed Ukraine closer to NATO.
NATO didn’t come looking for Ukraine to join. russia's actions pushed Ukraine to seek NATO membership.

Ukraine's constitution didn't allow joining any alliance until 2019. Yet Putin invaded / attacked / occupied Ukranian territory simply because it did not want to be a Russian puppet state any longer. NATO was off the table in 2014 completely. Vatniks will argue NATO was a partner of Ukraines which is true. What is also true is Russia was also a NATO partner up until 2020. NATO has many security partnerships with non members. This is not unusual at all.


This is the main reason Ukraine did not join CSTO when it was a Russian puppet state. And also the reason why Ukraine did not apply to join NATO until 2022.

 

[Zidane98]

Drunkvedev strikes