Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Mobbs]

And the Russians have found an unexpected benefit from the pollution washing up on the sea coast from the the tanker disasters.

Sand was previously collected for removal of the spilled oil. Someone's clearly seen an opportunity to go full Russia, and has started stealing unaffected sand for potential sale. [SOTA TG]

Residents of Anapa suspect that sand is being stolen from their beaches under the guise of cleaning them

Now the fuel oil on the beaches has hardened, and now it is sifted through a sieve, and not simply collected with shovels into bags, as was the case before.

However, local residents and volunteers note that clean sand far from the surf line continues to be collected in bags or even taken away by excavators – allegedly for sale.

This is also stated in the comments on the channel of the Governor of Krasnodar Krai:

"Why do they take clean sand from Anapa beaches in trucks, not oiled sand, but clean sand? There are many videos of how they take away completely clean sand, soon there will be no sand left on the beaches at all, they are raking clean sand in the noise."

The authorities have not yet provided an explanation for the situation.

Russia stealing land? Say it isn't so!

 

[Couch Coach]

Russians can't even withdraw from Syria properly:

• Syrians won't give ships access to Tartus port
• The ships that Russia does have don't work
  • "Alexander Otrakovsky ship has suffered from malfunctions in its water desalination system, and its second and third fuel tanks are reportedly leaking."
  • Ursa Major ship "sunk in the Mediterranean Sea between Spain and Algeria" and "A Russian cargo ship that sank on Tuesday in the Mediterranean Sea was the target of an “act of terrorism”, according to the vessel’s owner."
• "russian soldiers have been ordered to burn non-operational military vehicles that require repairs"

russian Ships Off Tartus Face Technical Failures and Denied Port Access | Defense Express

Denied port access and ship failures expose the cracks in russia’s strategy

en.defence-ua.com

Ukrainian intel: Russian fuel tanks leak on warship near Syria's coast - Euromaidan Press

Syrian post-Assad authorities deny Russian access to the port of Tartus.

euromaidanpress.com

Russian cargo ship sinks in Mediterranean Sea after explosion

The Ursa Major had been transporting two cranes to the city of Vladivostok when it was seen heavily leaning to one side while 106 kilometres from south-eastern Spain.

www.abc.net.au

Russian cargo ship’s owner says sinking in Mediterranean was ‘act of terrorism’

Three explosions caused Ursa Major to sink off Spanish coast, says company linked to Russian defence ministry

www.theguardian.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Trump starting to apply pressure on Zelensky to lower the conscription age in order to "stabilise the front" and create the best possible starting conditions to negotiate a deal.

" [Mike]Waltz (Trump's national security pick) said that [the Trump admin's] first steps would be to open dialogue with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin — to whom the US has not spoken directly since the war began — and to ask Kyiv to mobilise more men in order to stabilise Ukraine’s front lines ahead of negotiations."

'This isn’t just about munitions, ammunition or writing more cheques. It’s about seeing the front lines stabilise so that we can enter into some type of deal.”

Hmmm....doesn't look like things are going well on the front for Zelensky....front needs to be "stablised" with more cannon fodder before a deal can be struck...

Trump to urge Zelenskyy to lower Ukraine’s conscription age to 18

Incoming US president plans to speak with Russia’s Vladimir Putin within weeks, says new national security adviser

www.ft.com

 

[Anzacpaul]

Trump starting to apply pressure on Zelensky to lower the conscription age in order to "stabilise the front" and create the best possible starting conditions to negotiate a deal.

" [Mike]Waltz (Trump's national security pick) said that [the Trump admin's] first steps would be to open dialogue with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin — to whom the US has not spoken directly since the war began — and to ask Kyiv to mobilise more men in order to stabilise Ukraine’s front lines ahead of negotiations."

'This isn’t just about munitions, ammunition or writing more cheques. It’s about seeing the front lines stabilise so that we can enter into some type of deal.”

Hmmm....doesn't look like things are going well on the front for Zelensky....front needs to be "stablised" with more cannon fodder before a deal can be struck...

Trump to urge Zelenskyy to lower Ukraine’s conscription age to 18

Incoming US president plans to speak with Russia’s Vladimir Putin within weeks, says new national security adviser

www.ft.com

Why would you think Trump has any required expertise in anything (outside of bankruptcy and sexual assault), to advise another nation on how to conduct their defense, especially when Trump has a hold of Putin's pant's pocket?

 

[Couch Coach]

Trump starting to apply pressure on Zelensky to lower the conscription age in order to "stabilise the front" and create the best possible starting conditions to negotiate a deal.

" [Mike]Waltz (Trump's national security pick) said that [the Trump admin's] first steps would be to open dialogue with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin — to whom the US has not spoken directly since the war began — and to ask Kyiv to mobilise more men in order to stabilise Ukraine’s front lines ahead of negotiations."

'This isn’t just about munitions, ammunition or writing more cheques. It’s about seeing the front lines stabilise so that we can enter into some type of deal.”

Hmmm....doesn't look like things are going well on the front for Zelensky....front needs to be "stablised" with more cannon fodder before a deal can be struck...

Trump to urge Zelenskyy to lower Ukraine’s conscription age to 18

Incoming US president plans to speak with Russia’s Vladimir Putin within weeks, says new national security adviser

www.ft.com

Trump's going to resolve it in 24 hours isn't he (Jan 22)?
Oh wait it's now 100 days for good old Captain bone spurs who has no understanding of military strategy except for calling all the dead and injured suckers.

 

[IlovethePies]

Why would you think Trump has any required expertise in anything (outside of bankruptcy and sexual assault), to advise another nation on how to conduct their defense, especially when Trump has a hold of Putin's pant's pocket?

What does that mean for Zelensky?

 

[IlovethePies]

Trump's going to resolve it in 24 hours isn't he (Jan 22)?
Oh wait it's now 100 days for good old Captain bone spurs who has no understanding of military strategy except for calling all the dead and injured suckers.

...so what does that mean for Zelensky?
His regime is currently on life support from Washington.

 

[Couch Coach]

...so what does that mean for Zelensky?
His regime is currently on life support from Washington.

 

[IlovethePies]

So you think Europe will be able to replace US aid if it is cut off by Trump?

EU governments are currently in a debt crisis and economic stagnation approaching a recession.

Europe will not be able to replace US military aid to Ukraine without radically slashing its social expenditure (health, education, retirement pensions etc). This cannot be carried out democratically.

Your vision of the future leads to dictatorship not just in Russia, but across all of Europe as well, along with a never ending war in Ukraine.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[wannabejack]

Trump starting to apply pressure on Zelensky to lower the conscription age in order to "stabilise the front" and create the best possible starting conditions to negotiate a deal.

" [Mike]Waltz (Trump's national security pick) said that [the Trump admin's] first steps would be to open dialogue with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin — to whom the US has not spoken directly since the war began — and to ask Kyiv to mobilise more men in order to stabilise Ukraine’s front lines ahead of negotiations."

'This isn’t just about munitions, ammunition or writing more cheques. It’s about seeing the front lines stabilise so that we can enter into some type of deal.”

Hmmm....doesn't look like things are going well on the front for Zelensky....front needs to be "stablised" with more cannon fodder before a deal can be struck...

Trump to urge Zelenskyy to lower Ukraine’s conscription age to 18

Incoming US president plans to speak with Russia’s Vladimir Putin within weeks, says new national security adviser

www.ft.com

So who’s going to supply the weapons for these hundreds of thousands of new soldiers?

 

[IlovethePies]

So who’s going to supply the weapons for these hundreds of thousands of new soldiers?

Exactly my point

The war in Ukraine is an impasse. There is no way out for anyone. It cannot and will not be ended by Trump, or Europe or Putin.

It will lead either to nuclear war or revolution.

 

[Couch Coach]

So you think Europe will be able to replace US aid if it is cut off by Trump?

EU governments are currently in a debt crisis and economic stagnation approaching a recession.

Europe will not be able to replace US military aid to Ukraine without radically slashing its social expenditure (health, education, retirement pensions etc). This cannot be carried out democratically.

Your vision of the future leads to dictatorship not just in Russia, but across all of Europe as well, along with a never ending war in Ukraine.

The US is a debt crisis as well, US$36.34T in total at the moment!

That's US$36,340,000,000,000 or ~$106,000 per citizen.
The US government faces a shutdown risk regularly.

Victoria by contrast is forecast to hit ~$25,000 per person (2026/2027) and a lot of Victorians are worried.
The whole of the USA debt is 4 times the load of a disfunctional Victoria.



Only 1 country in Europe has a debt per capita higher than the US, Switzerland at ~US$151K.
The average debt per capita is ~$25K.

Anyway this is the Ukraine thread not the US is broke thread.

 

[wannabejack]

Exactly my point

The war in Ukraine is an impasse. There is no way out for anyone. It cannot and will not be ended by Trump, or Europe or Putin.

It will lead either to nuclear war or revolution.

But isn’t this what you’ve wanted, not a nuclear war, but a revolution of the working class.

 

[IlovethePies]

The US is a debt crisis as well, US$36.34T in total at the moment!

That's US$36,340,000,000,000 or ~$106,000 per citizen.
The US government faces a shutdown risk regularly.

Victoria by contrast is forecast to hit ~$25,000 per person (2026/2027) and a lot of Victorians are worried.
The whole of the USA debt is 4 times the load of a disfunctional Victoria.

View attachment 2202731

Only 1 country in Europe has a debt per capita higher than the US, Switzerland at ~US$151K.
The average debt per capita is ~$25K.

Anyway this is the Ukraine thread not the US is broke thread.

You keep inadvertenly reinforcing my arguments.

Yes, the US is in debt to such an extent that it will never be able to pay it back.

This is why the ruling class in the US is turning to dictatorship (ie Trump), and to intensifying war.

As far as war goes, Trump's only disagreement with the Democrats is that the war should primarily be aimed at China, and therefore the war in Ukraine is a waste of US resources.

The threat of US withdrawal of aid from Ukraine is sending the ruling classes in Europe into panic. They are determined to pursue the war against Russia, but they realise that they won't be able to do it through normal parliamentary means.

Hence the turn to far right forces, to be seen in Germany, Austria, France, Italy etc.

 

[IlovethePies]

But isn’t this what you’ve wanted, not a nuclear war, but a revolution of the working class.

No, you have misread everything of mine if that is what you genuinely think.

Revolution by the working class is the only way to prevent nuclear war, and I want to prevent nuclear war.

 

[Aussie in exile]

So who’s going to supply the weapons for these hundreds of thousands of new soldiers?

The US to boost it's arm's industry

 

[Couch Coach]

The US to boost it's arm's industry

You're not suggesting the USA are prolonging international conflicts to create more wealth are you