List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[Danger in Texas]

How would we know a 20 year old ruck Nick Bryan won't make it without seeing him get a decent shot at AFL, when he's played he's been only used as a chop out ruck and spent time up forward where all the ball gets directed at two metre Peter or warming the bench, dominates the VFL rucks quite a few who are AFL listed.

Yeah I don’t see any reason why a young, athletic, skilled but still raw ruck should be written off

That said, with Draper around, I think he finds himself at another club

 

[Mutineer]

Yeah I don’t see any reason why a young, athletic, skilled but still raw ruck should be written off

That said, with Draper around, I think he finds himself at another club

Can't see the Bombers willingly moving him on when their only other genuine ruck depth is a 31 year old Andrew Phillips.

If they do I would hope we have interest given the ages of ROB and Strachan..

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Strong disagree

I've seen Butter put up more of a fight .....there's a reason he's been "in case of emergency" this year ....some of Bryan's efforts have been unacceptable at AFL level

A player that has all the skills & coordination ....but not the heart required of a big man

 

[rabidcrow]

Kids are raised and play all their junior careers, playing attacking football .....what you hear Coaches say most, is they need to teach draftee's the defensive side of footy

So DIT, the attacking style is already ingrained .....getting the balance right between defense and attack is what's being taught now

Sorry, I ommitted .....Roos also built MELB on the back of defense, when he took over as Coach of what was then a basket case .....I'd say MELB are a pretty attacking side now, wouldn't you ?

Problem is ....supporters hear all this, but still lack the patience of a rebuild ......"yeah, lets bottom out, get some talent ....but what do you mean ..we have to lose games ??"
Nah, that's unacceptable

We also hear 50 games is when we start to see a players potential impacting games - but usually there are 10-14 100 game players around them to help bring that out of them. Unfortunately for us we are usually playing 3-5, which means we are far more vulnerable to set backs


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[WaynesWorld19]

We also hear 50 games is when we start to see a players potential impacting games - but usually there are 10-14 100 game players around them to help bring that out of them. Unfortunately for us we are usually playing 3-5, which means we are far more vulnerable to set backs


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And usually those experienced players are the sides stars .....movers & shakers ....sadly just Tex this year

Doedee has fumbled his way to an ordinary year, and Sloane out ......I don't see Laird as being a leader TBH

 

[LoBu]

My latest playstation trade dream scenario:



Still think it's unders for Rankine, but its also ideal.

 

[Danger in Texas]

I've seen Butter put up more of a fight .....there's a reason he's been "in case of emergency" this year ....some of Bryan's efforts have been unacceptable at AFL level

A player that has all the skills & coordination ....but not the heart required of a big man

Seems very harsh, considering he’s probably not quite ready physically for AFL level in regards to his build

We’ll come back to this one in a couple of years

 

[MRB37]

Kids are raised and play all their junior careers, playing attacking football .....what you hear Coaches say most, is they need to teach draftee's the defensive side of footy

So DIT, the attacking style is already ingrained .....getting the balance right between defense and attack is what's being taught now

Sorry, I ommitted .....Roos also built MELB on the back of defense, when he took over as Coach of what was then a basket case .....I'd say MELB are a pretty attacking side now, wouldn't you ?

Problem is ....supporters hear all this, but still lack the patience of a rebuild ......"yeah, lets bottom out, get some talent ....but what do you mean ..we have to lose games ??"
Nah, that's unacceptable

That's not what the coaches are saying though, all they've said all year is "We're a defensive first team", they talk about contest, pressure and defence.

It's entirely possible they're doing what you're saying, but that's not what they're telling anyone.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

That's not what the coaches are saying though, all they've said all year is "We're a defensive first team", they talk about contest, pressure and defence.

It's entirely possible they're doing what you're saying, but that's not what they're telling anyone.

The public narrative has to reflect the team focus now .....they'll set a new focus & narrative next year IMHO

 

[jackster83]

The public narrative has to reflect the team focus now .....they'll set a new focus & narrative next week IMHO

EFA. They are all over the place like a toddler with a bow and arrow set.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

EFA. They are all over the place like a toddler with a bow and arrow set.

Genuine LOL's

 

[Thetrader15]

My latest playstation trade dream scenario:

View attachment 1457127

Still think it's unders for Rankine, but its also ideal.

Only a few dreams in here...

McAdam -> 16 -> Rankine won't happen twice
Pick 23 for a contracted Hopper...tell him he's dreaming

Other than that, it looks great. I think Geelong might offer more than pick 60 for Crouch TBH. Maybe their 3rd rounder.

 

[Soggy2112]

That's not what the coaches are saying though, all they've said all year is "We're a defensive first team", they talk about contest, pressure and defence.

It's entirely possible they're doing what you're saying, but that's not what they're telling anyone.

The theory behind building a defence first game plan initially is sound. It’s what Fagan did when he took over at Brisbane and what Roos/Goodwin did at Melbourne. Brisbane’s numbers in particular are fascinating:

Points For:
2016 - 80.45 (14th)
2017 - 85.32 (13th)
2018 - 82.95 (11th)
2019 - 91.09 (1st)
2020* - 87.06 (3rd)
2021 - 96.86 (1st)
2022 - 99.89 (1st)

Points Against:
2016 - 130.55 (18th)
2017 - 114.82 (18th)
2018 - 93.14 (15th)
2019 - 77 (7th)
2020* - 69.71 (7th)
2021 - 72.68 (5th)
2022 - 79.61 (8th)

*multiplied by 1.25 to adjust for shorter quarters.

You can see when Fagan took over he focussed on bringing scores against down, even though he ultimately built an attacking minded game plan which is the highest scoring, it wasn’t until year 3 that he started to build that up.

Unfortunately the reality is that we are only just bottoming out in terms of age and experience, whatever game plan Nicks implements it’s not going to win, and therefore it’s going to look shit as the players will simply not be good enough to execute. I also don’t think we can possibly know what game plan will succeed for this group in 5 years time, as we don’t know what our list will look like.

However, if Nicks is trying to build a base of contest and defensive pressure, we rank 3rd in contested possessions, 2nd in clearances, and 1st in tackles, so it’s hard to argue with that. In fairness to him, if a team has a solid base of winning contested ball, winning clearance, and applying pressure without the ball, it’s far easier to develop a sound game plan around that.

This is not to say that Nicks is perfect, his selection is baffling at times, and does not suit our long term development, and it’s concerning to see the way some of our youth have progressed in their ability to move the ball, e.g. Schoenberg’s kicking efficiency and score involvements have dropped significantly, at a time we should be starting to see him break out. But the adage of it’s never as good or as a bad as it seems rings true here.

 

[MRB37]

The theory behind building a defence first game plan initially is sound. It’s what Fagan did when he took over at Brisbane and what Roos/Goodwin did at Melbourne. Brisbane’s numbers in particular are fascinating:

Points For:
2016 - 80.45 (14th)
2017 - 85.32 (13th)
2018 - 82.95 (11th)
2019 - 91.09 (1st)
2020* - 87.06 (3rd)
2021 - 96.86 (1st)
2022 - 99.89 (1st)

Points Against:
2016 - 130.55 (18th)
2017 - 114.82 (18th)
2018 - 93.14 (15th)
2019 - 77 (12th)
2020* - 69.71 (12th)
2021 - 72.68 (14th)
2022 - 79.61 (11th)

*multiplied by 1.25 to adjust for shorter quarters.

You can see when Fagan took over he focussed on bringing scores against down, even though he ultimately built an attacking minded game plan which is the highest scoring, it wasn’t until year 3 that he started to build that up.

Unfortunately the reality is that we are only just bottoming out in terms of age and experience, whatever game plan Nicks implements it’s not going to win, and therefore it’s going to look s**t as the players will simply not be good enough to execute. I also don’t think we can possibly know what game plan will succeed for this group in 5 years time, as we don’t know what our list will look like.

However, if Nicks is trying to build a base of contest and defensive pressure, we rank 3rd in contested possessions, 2nd in clearances, and 1st in tackles, so it’s hard to argue with that. In fairness to him, if a team has a solid base of winning contested ball, winning clearance, and applying pressure without the ball, it’s far easier to develop a sound game plan around that.

This is not to say that Nicks is perfect, his selection is baffling at times, and does not suit our long term development, and it’s concerning to see the way some of our youth have progressed in their ability to move the ball, e.g. Schoenberg’s kicking efficiency and score involvements have dropped significantly, at a time we should be starting to see him break out. But the adage of it’s never as good or as a bad as it seems rings true here.

The fundamental problem I have with it is this. He said when he started that the offence comes from the defence. Which means his focus is and always will be on defending because in his mind the game revolves around that. It's pressure, it's contest, it's defence. It's obviously how you stop teams scoring on you, but it's a huge part of how you score yourself.

So if we're not kicking goals his focus likely doesn't go "how can we score more? Do we add more firepower in the midfield/forward line?" etc it'll go "we need to defend better", which sounds like an oxymoron, but if you think the best path to offense is your defence it's where you'll go every time.

In our minds we go "We want to see Newchurch, he's got electric pace and could add a POD in our forward line to add some scoring power". The coaches go "we score from defending and if he's not doing defending consistently then we can't play him". And again, if your focus is always defence first you're going to stifle a lot of offensively minded players. Like listen to Godden when Newchurch (not to make it all about him) kicked 4.3 and had 20 touches. Everything had a negative tone to it because he was doing things they didn't value, even though he played well, scored goals, handed a few out they couldn't enjoy it for what it was. McHenry, Murphy, they do the fundamentals he wants, so they get picked, even though they can't score all that much themselves they hit his basic football beliefs and it's just a matter of time until that defense starts leading to goals.

 

[LoBu]

The fundamental problem I have with it is this. He said when he started that the offence comes from the defence. Which means his focus is and always will be on defending because in his mind the game revolves around that. It's pressure, it's contest, it's defence. It's obviously how you stop teams scoring on you, but it's a huge part of how you score yourself.

So if we're not kicking goals his focus likely doesn't go "how can we score more? Do we add more firepower in the midfield/forward line?" etc it'll go "we need to defend better", which sounds like an oxymoron, but if you think the best path to offense is your defence it's where you'll go every time.

In our minds we go "We want to see Newchurch, he's got electric pace and could add a POD in our forward line to add some scoring power". The coaches go "we score from defending and if he's not doing defending consistently then we can't play him". And again, if your focus is always defence first you're going to stifle a lot of offensively minded players. Like listen to Godden when Newchurch (not to make it all about him) kicked 4.3 and had 20 touches. Everything had a negative tone to it because he was doing things they didn't value, even though he played well, scored goals, handed a few out they couldn't enjoy it for what it was. McHenry, Murphy, they do the fundamentals he wants, so they get picked, even though they can't score all that much themselves they hit his basic football beliefs and it's just a matter of time until that defense starts leading to goals.

From what I gather is not about defence per se, but about turnovers and scoring from turnovers.

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[LoBu]

Only a few dreams in here...

McAdam -> 16 -> Rankine won't happen twice
Pick 23 for a contracted Hopper...tell him he's dreaming

Other than that, it looks great. I think Geelong might offer more than pick 60 for Crouch TBH. Maybe their 3rd rounder.

McAdam and Cameron would be a good combo for Brisbane though!
They probably wants points though for Ashcroft.

Pretty sure Geelong don't have a third.

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[Sanders]

I don't think they care about BigFooty, but they definitely do read social media comments

What they really care about, what they read very, very closely is the attendance figures

 

[Sanders]

The club wouldn't give two shits about this board. There's maybe 40 people who regularly post.

They can see what fans are thinking (as embarassing as it is) through a bunch of other means.

Of course they don’t care about the people here and their opinions:

However it is an opinion maker for journalists and media personalities who scour here for more meat than trivial fan cheering on socials

When something is said here it’s nothing, when someone prominent hives and promotes that same opinion into mainstream media then it has an effect.

 

[Dangerousfield]

And how are those sides going ? .....Hawthorn is playing very attacking footy, ESS getting canned because on the weekend they couldn't defend a kick-in .....GWS also playing attacking, of course, given who's coaching them

3 weeks in a row, the GWS Coach in the 4th Qtr has thrown the magnets in the air, and destroyed any chance of a successful result .....fact is GWS are not defensively minded enough

Highly likely tanking, won't win again this year, move up the draft to pick 3

 

[Sanders]

On the contrary, he is .....in his first year, some of the crows play was compared to the orange tsunami .....he had a more experienced team at that stage

you consistently say things you know aren’t true. Odd

You can have all the skill in your team, but without a Finals edge .....you end up with the Crows circa 2017

Sounds terrible. Anything but that

 

[Sanders]

Remember when every supporter was very happy to dump Stengle ..... I mean, he was never going to amount to anything, other than being another failed Crows small forward ......

There you go again, saying things you know aren’t true

 

[Dangerousfield]

And how are those sides going ? .....Hawthorn is playing very attacking footy, ESS getting canned because on the weekend they couldn't defend a kick-in .....GWS also playing attacking, of course, given who's coaching them

Going quite well, you may not have noticed but we lost to all of three of those examples and all three have a lot more talent on their lists than we do.

After the Hawks game I did a comparison player for player on both lists rating them on what they've actually shown, not some pie in the sky hoped for career. Sadly Hawks list galloped ahead of our list very quickly, have a look at Hawks starting back six, none of ours would displace any of them! Reckon Essendon's would compare way above ours as well. GWS are having a reset but they have a lot of high end talent still in their prime.

So your point here is what exactly given we lost to all three and us with bugger all injuries?

 

[Bearded Clam]

Highly likely tanking, won't win again this year, move up the draft to pick 3

unbelievable that a team with so much talent can possible end up lower on the ladder than the crows at the moment..

disgustingly deliberate tanking.

the AFL, if it was Adelaide that had GWS’s current list, would already have tanking sanctions drafted and ready for announcing at the seasons end.

but because its one of their project franchises.. nothing will be even mentioned.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Don’t we play North at home lol?

he’s talking about GWS tanking.. not adelaide

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Frederick please

Sure