List Mgmt. “It’s a form of tanking” the Richmond rebuild

[Rich01]

So many draft experts in here

 

[Freddy Swift]

I didn’t say that. It’s a deep draft, but that’s about it. The talent at the top end isn’t any better than previous seasons tho. There is a reason why WCE happily slipped from 3 to 12+14. Probably the value will come picks 30 onwards in this one compared to others. Also lacks a clear standout no1 like other years or a handful of elites

I’d hardly say WCE ‘happily’ slipped from 3 to 12+14. From what I read their fans were bloody furious about it.

Why don’t you just admit you hate Richmond and it wouldn’t matter what they did, you would find fault in it?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I’d hardly say WCE ‘happily’ slipped from 3 to 12+14. From what I read their fans were bloody furious about it.

Why don’t you just admit you hate Richmond and it wouldn’t matter what they did, you would find fault in it?

How is saying this is a deep draft but not a strong draft hating Richmond?? There are pros and cons to a draft like this.

WCE list management saw more value in 12+14 than 3 which should tell you a lot about this draft. Nobody would do that deal unless they felt the quality at 12+14 was similar.

Pros are you have less chance of stuffing up your picks, but cons are you are probably not going to be drafting that dusty Martin elite type player. You are more likely going to draft just good players or solid players, but it’s looking more assured and less risky which isn’t a bad thing with how many picks you have.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How is saying this is a deep draft but not a strong draft hating Richmond?? There are pros and cons to a draft like this.

WCE list management saw more value in 12+14 than 3 which should tell you a lot about this draft. Nobody would do that deal unless they felt the quality at 12+14 was similar.

Pros are you have less chance of stuffing up your picks, but cons are you are probably not going to be drafting that dusty Martin elite type player. You are more likely going to draft just good players or solid players, but it’s looking more assured and less risky which isn’t a bad thing with how many picks you have.

Stupid argument, but what we should expect I guess.

Carlton's list management saw more value in 3 than 12 + 14.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Stupid argument, but what we should expect I guess.

Carlton's list management saw more value in 3 than 12 + 14.

Higher picks are always worth more the earlier into the draft. For a team to willingly give over pick 3 for 12+14 is pretty clear what caliber of players are available early on in this draft. There is no super or elite tier in this draft. It is a very even spread crop.

You always pay a premium to move up to those sort of spots. Pick 12+14 would only ever get the job done if the top end lacked a premium tier. WCE hold all the cards in this scenario, not Carlton.

Carlton probably have their eye on who they believe to be a slightly better player, where as WCE see probably two similar players available at 12+14.

If the consensus was there was an elite few at the top, there is zero chance WCE are entertaining the trade

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I didn’t say that. It’s a deep draft, but that’s about it. The talent at the top end isn’t any better than previous seasons tho. There is a reason why WCE happily slipped from 3 to 12+14. Probably the value will come picks 30 onwards in this one compared to others. Also lacks a clear standout no1 like other years or a handful of elites

A clear standout o1 pick is a sign of a strong draft exactly how?

You are the only person who seems to be saying this draft lacks a handful of elites. Clubs seem to be salivating over th top 8-10 players as well as being prepared to give up big future draft capital for picks in the mid teens. North reported to have offered their F1 pick(expected value around pick 4-6) for a pick that will end up being the 15th or 16th in the 2024 draft. And that trade was rejected. So that confirms you are talking absolute hogwash.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Higher picks are always worth more the earlier into the draft. For a team to willingly give over pick 3 for 12+14 is pretty clear what caliber of players are available early on in this draft. There is no super or elite tier in this draft. It is a very even spread crop.

You always pay a premium to move up to those sort of spots. Pick 12+14 would only ever get the job done if the top end lacked a premium tier. WCE hold all the cards in this scenario, not Carlton.

Carlton probably have their eye on who they believe to be a slightly better player, where as WCE see probably two similar players available at 12+14.

If the consensus was there was an elite few at the top, there is zero chance WCE are entertaining the trade

How about trying something new & basing your post on facts.

Eagles used 14 to trade for Baker. Their trading out 3 was forced by the fact they had committed to Baker & he demanded Richmond were adequately compensated.

Carlton traded their 2025 rd 1 & 2 picks + their 2024 rd 1 pick + Owies for pick 3. They didn't do that because they believe there are no elite players at the top of the draft.

You are making comically foolish claims here.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

A clear standout o1 pick is a sign of a strong draft exactly how?

You are the only person who seems to be saying this draft lacks a handful of elites. Clubs seem to be salivating over th top 8-10 players as well as being prepared to give up big future draft capital for picks in the mid teens. North reported to have offered their F1 pick(expected value around pick 4-6) for a pick that will end up being the 15th or 16th in the 2024 draft. And that trade was rejected. So that confirms you are talking absolute hogwash.

So clubs are salivating over the top 8-10 players, yet the club with pick 3 in the draft happily traded it out for picks 12-14? Yep, I’ll let you work that one out for a moment.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

How about trying something new & basing your post on facts.

Eagles used 14 to trade for Baker. Their trading out 3 was forced by the fact they had committed to Baker & he demanded Richmond were adequately compensated.

Carlton traded their 2025 rd 1 & 2 picks + their 2024 rd 1 pick + Owies for pick 3. They didn't do that because they believe there are no elite players at the top of the draft.

You are making comically foolish claims here.

Eagles could have used other assets for baker. Could have also opted for a future first and kept 3 instead. owies was reportedly close to delisted and steak knives so don’t make me laugh about Owies.

WCE were more than happy to hand over whoever was at pick 3 for pick 12+14. Please tell me how many teams historically have done that?? And especially in very strong top end drafts with elite players?? Essentially non existent for a reason.

As usual when you can’t argue you get emotional. You know I am right which is why you are getting wound up in your posts.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

So clubs are salivating over the top 8-10 players, yet the club with pick 3 in the draft happily traded it out for picks 12-14? Yep, I’ll let you work that one out for a moment.

They traded pick 3 out for Liam Baker and pick 12, & have been derided for doing so by their own fans & others who do not think they got an adequate return for pick 3 - precisely because people know the calibre of player availble at the top of the draft.

You can't dig your way out of a hole. It just gets deeper.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

They traded pick 3 out for Liam Baker and pick 12, & have been derided for doing so by their own fans & others who do not think they got an adequate return for pick 3 - precisely because people know the calibre of player availble at the top of the draft.

You can't dig your way out of a hole. It just gets deeper.

So for a 26yo who has never been an AA or even top 50 player in the AFL and pick 14 is what they got in return for pick 3. Yeah, amazing stuff.

their fans are angry because it’s probably one of a handful of times in recent history a club has done such a lopsided trade, it’s rarely seen, but the only way it makes any sense is WCE list management is well aware the top end lacks an elite group so it’s acceptable in their eyes to trade back.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Eagles could have used other assets for baker. Could have also opted for a future first and kept 3 instead. owies was reportedly close to delisted and steak knives so don’t make me laugh about Owies.

WCE were more than happy to hand over whoever was at pick 3 for pick 12+14. Please tell me how many teams historically have done that?? And especially in very strong top end drafts with elite players?? Essentially non existent for a reason.

As usual when you can’t argue you get emotional. You know I am right which is why you are getting wound up in your posts.

Your position does not make sense.

Baker demanded Richmond were adequately compensated. Eagles were not using an F1 for Baker, it could be pick 1. All your points are answered. But your strange position does not allow at all for why CARLTON would tade 2 x rd 1 picks + a rd 2 pick + Owies to get pick 3. Why did they do that if there are no elite players available at pick 3? Did they have a recruitment meeting & say it would be cool to have pick 3 because there is often a good player available there, and let's not worry about there being no elite players available at that pick this year?

I can & have explained Eagles position with reference to widely reported facts. You have zero explanation for why the Blues would trade 2 x rd 1 + 1 x rd 2 picks + a player who played 23 senior games in a finals team in 2024 to get a pick where there are no elite players available. And you will never be able to explain it without changing the no elite players available bit.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

So for a 26yo who has never been an AA or even top 50 player in the AFL and pick 14 is what they got in return for pick 3. Yeah, amazing stuff.

their fans are angry because it’s probably one of a handful of times in recent history a club has done such a lopsided trade, it’s rarely seen, but the only way it makes any sense is WCE list management is well aware the top end lacks an elite group so it’s acceptable in their eyes to trade back.

Everyone bar you seems to see 2 things here.

1. Eagles did not get adequate return for pick 3 given the calibre of player available at pick 3, &
2. Carlton paid a king's ransom(pick 12 + f1 + f2 + 23 game player i 2024 season) to trade up to get pick 3, and everyone including Carlton believes they did well precisely because they know the types of players available at pick 3.

It is only you who does not believe there are elite players available in the top tier of the draft. Most draft assessors seem to think that top tier runs 5 deep at the very least.

 

[Fadge]

Everyone bar you seems to see 2 things here.

1. Eagles did not get adequate return for pick 3 given the calibre of player available at pick 3, &
2. Carlton paid a king's ransom(pick 12 + f1 + f2 + 23 game player i 2024 season) to trade up to get pick 3, and everyone including Carlton believes they did well precisely because they know the types of players available at pick 3.

It is only you who does not believe there are elite players available in the top tier of the draft. Most draft assessors seem to think that top tier runs 5 deep at the very least.

Why then did you make the following comment, in an attempt to support your argument, which doesn't seem to do much to support it?

Clubs seem to be salivating over th top 8-10 players as well as being prepared to give up big future draft capital for picks in the mid teens. North reported to have offered their F1 pick(expected value around pick 4-6) for a pick that will end up being the 15th or 16th in the 2024 draft. And that trade was rejected.

 

[Fadge]

The other consideration for West Coast is the fact 9 of the top 10 players on most draft boards are Victorians.

Maybe they're planning to pick up a couple of non-Victorians (or a maximum of one Victorian) with their 12 and 14 picks, to mitigate the go home risk factor?

 

[Grrr]

I would safely say, along with just about every draft watcher, that this draft is quite deep into the 20's. Some very good players will be available to Richmond around our later picks (18 to 24), it is semantics to argue otherwise.

Most football watchers have unanimously respected Richmond's drafting and trading this year and if you followed, last year.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Why then did you make the following comment, in an attempt to support your argument, which doesn't seem to do much to support it?

Got no idea what you mean.

 

[Fadge]

Got no idea what you mean.

One minute you're arguing with a poster who suggested the Eagles would be happy with their trade of pick 3 for picks 12 and 14 - 'Everyone including Carlton believes they did the right thing by trading up to Pick 3'. (I don't)

The next minute you're highlighting North's willingness to trade future picks to get pick 14, based on how much talent there is at that stage of the draft.

They don't seem to be consistent positions, particularly given there are no Harley Reids, JHF's or Nick Daicos' in this draft.

 

[blaisee]

They are rolling the dice a bit getting rid of so many leaders.

Hawthorn are only a comparison because of that ****en purple idiot. In reality it's nothing alike. Omeara and Mitchell were not leaders, had no premierships and they didn't want to lose Gunston (and have since got him back to the benefit of Dear)


If Richmond get this right, they are laughing, but that is very hard. In the past couple of years they have lost Reiwoldt, Cotch, Martin, Lambert, Rioli, Graham, Edwards, Grimes, Soldo and Bolton. That's of the top of my head so I may have missed some but that's a he'll of a lot of leaders, leaders who know how to win flags too.

Who is left to guide these kids?

Ask Gold Coast how having a team full of top 30 picks works out without genuine leadership.

I personally think it's a long road but they aren't dying wondering. Im not going to judge them just because some over rated bin raker had a dig at my team.

Plus unlike North or GC, they have 3 recent flags in the bank. I think they can afford to take a punt, even if personally I don't think it will work.

A lot of leaders got old but I think the amount of experience still in the team would surprise most casual fans

Flossy
Lynch
Prestia
Nank
Broad
Dmac
Short
Balta

Are all premiership players

Then we have leaders like Taranto and hopper

The cupboard is not as bare as Geelong fans hope and dream and fantasise

The key next year is not actually how the 2024 draftees do , but it’s if the 18 under 24 yr olds that are already on the list could develop .

Good run with injuries , experienced players play most games , young players on the list like gibcus brown mcauliffe rioli Campbell banks keep getting better , 2024 draftees contribute

Who knows what happens

Future is very bright , personally would not have this any other way considering the circumstances

 

[Rich01]

Eagles could have used other assets for baker. Could have also opted for a future first and kept 3 instead. owies was reportedly close to delisted and steak knives so don’t make me laugh about Owies.

WCE were more than happy to hand over whoever was at pick 3 for pick 12+14. Please tell me how many teams historically have done that?? And especially in very strong top end drafts with elite players?? Essentially non existent for a reason.

Let’s see how it pans out on draft night.
But I’d be happier with Carltons hand if they pick Smith rather than West Coast with a potential combo of Allan and Baker.

Lucky for Richmond and their rebuild (which is the topic of this thread that some oppo fans keep forgetting), they have a glut of picks in the early, mid and late stages of the first round of this draft to help with their list build. A great position in a high quality draft to launch again.

 

[blaisee]

I might start a new thread

Is what Geelong doing a form of tanking ?

I mean how else can you explain offering a 35 yr a 2 yr contract when half your best players are well in their 30s, and you are about to beg Richmond to give you pick 24 for your f1 and pick 45 , and then Richmond say no thanks, we have better offers from hawthorn .

The whole afl world is obsessed with this draft and yet the oldest team in the comp by far, does not have a pick lol


It is complete list mismanagement .

 

[Fadge]

I might start a new thread

Is what Geelong doing a form of tanking ?

I mean how else can you explain offering a 35 yr a 2 yr contract when half your best players are well in their 30s, and you are about to beg Richmond to give you pick 24 for your f1 and pick 45 , and then Richmond say no thanks, we have better offers from hawthorn .

The whole afl world is obsessed with this draft and yet the oldest team in the comp by far, does not have a pick lol


It is complete list mismanagement .

This is actually quite funny, particularly as you are being serious.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

One minute you're arguing with a poster who suggested the Eagles would be happy with their trade of pick 3 for picks 12 and 14 - 'Everyone including Carlton believes they did the right thing by trading up to Pick 3'. (I don't)

The next minute you're highlighting North's willingness to trade future picks to get pick 14, based on how much talent there is at that stage of the draft.

They don't seem to be consistent positions, particularly given there are no Harley Reids, JHF's or Nick Daicos' in this draft.

The thing we were discussing was whether there is elite talent available at the top end of the draft.

Eagles didn't trade 3 for 12 & 14 just because they fancied the talent at 12 & 14 compared to 3. They needed currency to trade for Baker, who they had committed to, and were blidsided by the Hawks trading out their pick 14 to the Blues, so could't get that pick for Barrass to give to Richmond for Baker. They may believe there is a very good player available at 12(most draft watchers do) but this does not diminish the argument that there are elite players avaialble at the top end of the draft. If anything it confirms it.

Where clubs won't take North's f1 for a pick that will end up around 15 in this years draft, you can tell that the industry believes it is a very strong draft. If pick 15 is considered worth more than a top 5-6 pick in next years draft you can bet your life clubs believe there is elite talent at the top end of the draft.

You are arguing for the sake of it. One club trading out of a certain part of the draft proves absolutely nothing where another club is willing to trade into that part of the draft. It is like a property selling for $2m and observers saying the sale proves the house is not worth $2m and that is why the seller sold for that price. It can easily be countered with the same logic by someone saying the sale proves the house is worth more tha $2m otherwise why would the buyer pay that price for it.

The actual transaction shows that in the available market:

• pick 3 2024 is worth picks 12 & 14 2024
• pick 13 2024 is worth more tha a pick with an expected value of pick 5 2025.

Not one bit of that indicates there is not elite talent available at the top end of the 2024 draft.

 

[Freddy Swift]

One thing you can put money on in any thread about Richmond is that Geelong supporters will float in and offer their opinions, usually derogatory. Then sure enough, Fadge will pop in to back up that opinion. Never fails.

 

[Cdog71]

Marty Clarke made an error with how real the prospect of the Hawks getting impatient on the deal with Barass. He should have kept them engaged and probably conceded and agreed to the deal.
Pyke held a press conference about the decision…dont often see that.

Where I’d be happy to say WC did completely bugger it up is…if as it’s been said plenty of times this is a very even draft.
If Bo Allen gets taken before WC’s pick that is a fail in my view.
U/18 WA Captain 191 genuine elite left sided athlete. Mid/intercept defender.
He looks a beauty.

He would’ve been identified a long way out and I expected him to go to WC.
I doubt very much he’ll be there after Saints picks.