Universal Love 2016/2017 Pre-season Thread

[Danger in Texas]

I tend to agree with Vader in that, if CEY makes it, it will be as a 20th-22nd player. He will never be a star. Would much prefer to put games into the likes of Greenwood/Gallucci/Poholke/Knight. Even Gore has had three less years in the system.

 

[Apsaalooke]

CEY was not "clearly the best player in the twos", given that he only finished 4th in the SANFL B&F. What you, or I, think is largely irrelevant. The coaches all rated Beech, Greenwood & Grigg ahead of him.

These are the same people who played Mackay, Thompson and Douglas all year and even VB on occasion ahead of standout youngsters.
They also sabotaged our finals campaign by picking unfit players, so their judgement regarding selection is seriously doubtful

 

[lunacy]

Sanfl voting. Despite Cam missing games. Ummm if my maths is right Cam has more votes than Greenwood. Check the facts before you post Vader. Also you might want to watch Greenwood before saying he has a higher ceiling than Cam. Considering he is 24 and older than Cam I dont see much improvement in him. He has a bit of X factor but not near the player of Cam.

State League Club Champion Leaderboard – Top 10
1. Jonathon Beech – 185
2. Mitch Grigg – 178
3. Harrison Wigg – 174
4. Reilly O’Brien – 173
5. Cam Ellis-Yolmen – 163
6. Hugh Greenwood – 162
7. Tom Doedee – 156
8. Dean Gore – 141
9. Keenan Ramsey – 137
10. Andy Otten - 130

Greenwood also played every game and still couldnt get more votes than Cam

Greenwood was playing basketball in the US last year and you expect him to get more votes than CEY. If you were able graph Greenwood's improvement, it would be on a steep upward curve. Of course he has more improvement in him than CEY. Greenwood did all that off 1 preseason and not playing AFL for 8 years. He should improve a lot again after another preseason and more time in the system.

 

[Vader]

These are the same people who played Mackay, Thompson and Douglas all year and even VB on occasion ahead of standout youngsters.
They also sabotaged our finals campaign by picking unfit players, so their judgement regarding selection is seriously doubtful

They also took us to the finals, with a 16-6 H&A record. They got far, far, more right than wrong.

If I were you, I'd be thinking deeply why they preferred to keep playing Mackay, Thompson & Douglas, when they still had CEY waiting in the wings. The inescapable conclusion is that they thought these players, even playing at a diminished capacity (Thommo & Douglas), had more to offer than CEY.

 

[marty36]

CEY is one of those many, many, players who were very good at SANFL level, but not good enough at AFL level. Mitch Grigg finished ahead of him in the B&F, and was delisted. Lyons played most of the season in the AFL team, ahead of CEY, and was pushed out the door to GC. CEY belongs in the same group - players who just aren't/weren't good enough to push beyond fringe selection.

I appreciate that he's put in a lot of hard work, and I can see where you're coming from suggesting that he should be given a go. He's done 6 years in the SANFL and was one of our better players last year. If "fair go" was a selection criteria, then he'd definitely be getting a game. Unfortunately for him, the AFL isn't about a "fair go", it's a harsh meritocracy - and CEY just doesn't merit selection.

I can think of several players who are more meritorious, or who have stronger cases for selection - Wigg (merit), Knight (merit), Beech (merit), Greenwood (greater upside), Doedee (upside). CEY will just have to wait his turn in the queue, with an ever increasing number of players pushing ahead of him in a race to the front.

I dont think up until this year he deserved a fair go as you put it. But his form warrants a go now, its a culture thing, you need to reward effort, up until this year I dont believe he has put the effort in to a certain standard. Keep picking teams like that, reward results and you will succeed, pick teams on potential or he will perform at AFL level better on a punt and you will see inconsistency and frustration.

There is dispute now about his performancers last year, in my opinion he was the stand out consistent performer and if he wasnt playing would have cost the team dearly.

 

[marty36]

Greenwood was playing basketball in the US last year and you expect him to get more votes than CEY. If you were able graph Greenwood's improvement, it would be on a steep upward curve. Of course he has more improvement in him than CEY. Greenwood did all that off 1 preseason and not playing AFL for 8 years. He should improve a lot again after another preseason and more time in the system.

Would the Reserves have lost more games if CEY or Greenwood was missing?

 

[1970crow]

Not suggesting that anyone should be gifted a spot. CEY has proven over a period of time that he's not AFL standard, just a good SANFL player. Selecting a player who is, at best, only ever going to be the 21st or 22nd best player in the team, is a complete waste. I would prefer to see selection priority given to players with a higher ceiling, even if they don't have the SANFL runs on the board that CEY has.

If you want runs on the board, then Knight and Greenwood should be the first cabs off the rank to replace Thommo & Lyons. I would be quite happy if that were to be the case. Knight is already a better player than CEY will ever be, and will be even further ahead with a full pre-season behind him. Greenwood had a better 2016 than CEY (according to the SANFL B&F voting), and has a much higher ceiling. Beech was also better than CEY in 2016, according to the coaches, but I don't think he has the potential that Greenwood shows.

The likes of Gallucci and Poholke are largely unknown at this stage. I want to see them in the pre-season games before I decide whether or not I think they should get AFL action in 2017. As for Wigg.. I'm really not sure where he stands now, or into the future. He could have missed his window of opportunity in 2016, with newer draftees (e.g. Doedee, Gallucci, Poholke) going past him in 2017 - maybe.

I don't understand how you can state that CEY has proven that he isn't AFL standard when he went fine early last year pre hamstring and in 2 fill in efforts, played out of position for minimal minutes, he was equally as good as 150+ gamers that you are yet to fully rule a line through.

 

[Vader]

Would the Reserves have lost more games if CEY or Greenwood was missing?

Irrelevant. Firstly, we're talking about making the AFL team better, not the SANFL team. Secondly, we're talking about 2017. CEY was better than Greenwood this year, but that's to be expected given that he's been on our list for 6 years, while Greenwood spent most of that time playing basketball. The question is which of these players will be better in the future, and which of these players has the potential to improve the AFL team - the answer to both questions is clearly and obviously Greenwood.

 

[Ramify]

They also took us to the finals, with a 16-6 H&A record. They got far, far, more right than wrong.

If I were you, I'd be thinking deeply why they preferred to keep playing Mackay, Thompson & Douglas, when they still had CEY waiting in the wings. The inescapable conclusion is that they thought these players, even playing at a diminished capacity (Thommo & Douglas), had more to offer than CEY.

Dont know if you have played much sport Vader, but in my experience Ive witnessed plenty of quiet,demure and humble champs overlooked for the more outspoken,bolchy,loud,and colourful types or those that are simply well entrenched within the clique despite talent or form.

Having spoken to young C4EY a few times,I reckon he is moreso a victim of his own persona than not being talented enough or in better form than others fitting the above description . This says more about the selection panel and coaching staff than it does the player/s.

Dont even try to convince me that the AFC select players on form or what they provide to the side alone.I wont have a bar of it.

 

[Vader]

I don't understand how you can state that CEY has proven that he isn't AFL standard when he went fine early last year pre hamstring and in 2 fill in efforts, played out of position for minimal minutes, he was equally as good as 150+ gamers that you are yet to fully rule a line through.

Talk about over-rating of shiny toys. CEY's performances, in both 2015 & 2016, are massively overrated by his supporters.

5 years, 14 games. Not good enough.

 

[1970crow]

Apologies for not getting the top-4 right. I thought it was Beech, Grigg & Greenwood in the top-3. CEY finishing 5th, behind ROB & Wigg makes an even bigger mockery of marty's claim that CEY was "clearly" the best performed player we had in the magoos.

I have seen a bit of Greenwood, before Ch7 cut the late night SANFL broadcasts. He may be slightly older than CEY, but he's only been on an AFL list for 12 months (having spent several years playing basketball). CEY hit his ceiling a while ago. Greenwood still has a fair bit of development left, and looks to be a very exciting prospect.

On a votes per game basis, the top-10 was:
Beech - 10.3
Wigg - 9.7
CEY - 9.6
ROB - 9.1
Grigg - 8.9
Doedee - 8.7
Otten - 8.7
Greenwood - 8.1
Ramsey - 7.6
Gore - 7.1

Even on that basis, CEY was still only the 3rd best SANFL player.

On a votes per game basis, Doedee is the shining star - finishing equal 6th in his first SANFL season.

Exactly what I was thinking as I looked at that table. Stuff the CEY, "best SANFL player" argument, have a look at where Doedee, late starter and off an injury interrupted preseason finished. Really looking forward to watching this kid develop.

 

[Vader]

Dont know if you have played much sport Vader, but in my experience Ive witnessed plenty of quiet,demure and humble champs overlooked for the more outspoken,bolchy,loud,and colourful types or those that are simply well entrenched within the clique despite talent or form.

Having spoken to young C4EY a few times,I reckon he is more a victim of his own persona moreso than not being talented enough or in better form than others fitting the above description . This says more about the selection panel and coaching staff than it does the player/s.

Dont even try to convince me that the AFC select players on form or what they provide to the side alone.I wont have a bar of it.

I don't doubt that CEY has a quiet and humble persona. I also don't doubt that this would count heavily against him in an amateur competition where the conditions you've described would reign supreme.

I have a lot more trouble believing that to be the case in the AFL, where everything is replayed, dissected, and analysed statistically. That level of analysis, which goes on at every club, just doesn't leave room for omitting a player based purely on them being "quieter".

 

[ThreeLeggedCrow]

CEY did have an outstanding Season and stepped it up before his injury...
Cam Ellis-Yolmen’s outstanding SANFL season has been rewarded with a place in the League’s 2016 Team of the Year.
Ellis-Yolmen, who was Adelaide’s leading vote-getter at the SANFL’s Magarey Medal count, secured a place on the interchange in this year’s team.
http://www.afc.com.au/news/2016-09-21/ellisyolmen-into-sanfl-team-of-the-year

 

[1970crow]

Talk about over-rating of shiny toys. CEY's performances, in both 2015 & 2016, are massively overrated by his supporters.

5 years, 14 games. Not good enough.

Development player that wasn't expected to play until a couple of years were under the belt. 14 games, 2 years, went ok when played, equalling what we accept from Mackay, Dougie & Wright for months on end. Strange that you place more importance on his first 3 years than you do his last 2 when you actually got to see him at the highest level. Sure, he's not going to magically become our Pendles next year, but he's shown over the course of those handful of games that he's not out of place being just inside the 22. Of course, some delusional, shinynewtoyitis afflicted posters had thought the same of Lyons first handful of vested efforts. But you nailed us all on that too.

 

[Danger in Texas]

Talk about over-rating of shiny toys. CEY's performances, in both 2015 & 2016, are massively overrated by his supporters.

5 years, 14 games. Not good enough.

To be fair:

1) He was always a project player.
2) He did actually play quite well during the opening part of 2015, and was applauded by many on here.

He's failed to cement his place though, which makes me think we should move on. The examples I gave above have the potential to be higher quality, and we should make use of that.

 

[Apsaalooke]

They also took us to the finals, with a 16-6 H&A record. They got far, far, more right than wrong.

If I were you, I'd be thinking deeply why they preferred to keep playing Mackay, Thompson & Douglas, when they still had CEY waiting in the wings. The inescapable conclusion is that they thought these players, even playing at a diminished capacity (Thommo & Douglas), had more to offer than CEY.

Of course they thought the old guard were better options, no-one disputes that - its a fact. But they're not infallible so were they right in thinking that, that's altogether another question.

As you say, they got some things wrong as all clubs do. What do you think these things were?

 

[Vader]

Development player that wasn't expected to play until a couple of years were under the belt. 14 games, 2 years, went ok when played, equalling what we accept from Mackay, Dougie & Wright for months on end. Strange that you place more importance on his first 3 years than you do his last 2 when you actually got to see him at the highest level. Sure, he's not going to magically become our Pendles next year, but he's shown over the course of those handful of games that he's not out of place being just inside the 22. Of course, some delusional, shinynewtoyitis afflicted posters had thought the same of Lyons first handful of vested efforts. But you nailed us all on that too.

Even in the last 2 years, he has never shown anything to indicate that he'll be more than the 21st or 22nd player selected in the senior team. At his best, on a good day. Selecting a 6th year player on that basis is a wasted opportunity - any game played by CEY in 2016 is a lost opportunity for the development of a player with greater potential.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

I'm not sure that Wigg is quick enough to make it as a lock down small defender, he certainly isn't as fast as Brown anyway. I'm not sure what Wigg is like in aerial contests either? He looks very small and light.

I thought that the main reason Wigg moved into the midfield was because it didn't look like he would be able to get a game playing in defence.

He is of ok speed not amazing
Yep needs to work on body strength
And aerial stuff

Not going to be any easier aiming for midfield spot unless he's worked on all those things

 

[Vader]

Of course they thought the old guard were better options, no-one disputes that - its a fact. But they're not infallible so were they right in thinking that, that's altogether another question.

As you say, they got some things wrong as all clubs do. What do you think these things were?

I think selecting VB for those mid-season games was a mistake - those games should have been given to Wigg.

I think Thommo should have been rested more often than he was.

I think Jacobs should have sat out longer, waiting until his ankle was completely healed before playing again. If that meant playing an inexperienced ROB for a couple more games, then so be it - it was still a better option than being forced to select a one-legged Jacobs in the finals.

I think they rushed Brad Crouch & Knight back into the team too quickly, with both players playing poorly as a result. The club eventually had to acknowledge that they got Crouch wrong. Injury meant they never had to make the same admission for Knight.

Not sure what they could/should have done with JJ, given that his injury happened very close to the finals. Playing him, when he could barely walk, was clearly a mistake. I'm not sure they had many other options though, as he's a difficult player to replace due to his dual role as forward/ruck. Replacing him with Dear was not a viable option, and they couldn't ask an inexperienced ROB or a hobbled Jacobs to ruck solo.

 

[Vader]

He's failed to cement his place though, which makes me think we should move on. The examples I gave above have the potential to be higher quality, and we should make use of that.

And that's the point.. any game where he's selected next year is an opportunity gone begging for developing a younger player with greater potential.

 

[Apsaalooke]

I think selecting VB for those mid-season games was a mistake - those games should have been given to Wigg.

I think Thommo should have been rested more often than he was.

I think Jacobs should have sat out longer, waiting until his ankle was completely healed before playing again. If that meant playing an inexperienced ROB for a couple more games, then so be it - it was still a better option than being forced to select a one-legged Jacobs in the finals.

I think they rushed Brad Crouch & Knight back into the team too quickly, with both players playing poorly as a result. The club eventually had to acknowledge that they got Crouch wrong. Injury meant they never had to make the same admission for Knight.

Not sure what they could/should have done with JJ, given that his injury happened very close to the finals. Playing him, when he could barely walk, was clearly a mistake. I'm not sure they had many other options though, as he's a difficult player to replace due to his dual role as forward/ruck. Replacing him with Dear was not a viable option, and they couldn't ask an inexperienced ROB or a hobbled Jacobs to ruck solo.

I agree with all those and even in retrospect these were all obvious schoolboy errors that most amateur coaches on this board were calling for at the time.
That's why I have no faith in the selection committee of this club and have not had for some time. They get a lot of things right, but team selection isn't one of them.and it costs us time and again.

 

[Mego Red]

Say what you like most who watched the SANFL, would agree CEY tore it up, most thought he was brownlow favorite yet didnt pole well, I suppose that is the opinion of those handing out votes. If CEY wasnt in teh guts in the two's this year we would have lost a number of games more.

Im not saying he will be a champ, but his effort is deserving of him to be given the opportunity, more so than any other seconds player, but Wigg also deserves a shot. The question is how many deserve a go without taking too much away from the team.

I really didn't think CEY was Brownlow favorite.

 

[Mego Red]

I agree with all those and even in retrospect these were all obvious schoolboy errors that most amateur coaches on this board were calling for at the time.
That's why I have no faith in the selection committee of this club and have not had for some time. They get a lot of things right, but team selection isn't one of them.and it costs us time and again.

The trouble with judging team selection is you can only judge what someone actually did.

You have no way of knowing the results of trying the alternative.

Could be better. Could be worse.

 

[BRL121]

I think you need an emoji to signify the sarcasm.

Believe it or not, I wasn't being sarcastic. Although Marty gets bagged a lot, possibly fairly, he's been contributing sense to this thread. Whereas it's valid for those here to have strong opinions on who shouldn't get any games and who will be no good next year, it is completely irrelevant to what will actually happen. The makeup of the team for the opening round will/should be determined only by who looks good during training and pre-season competition. The continued makeup will/should be determined, barring injuries, by who is performing during the season, not by preconceptions of players. Of course, we hope that no golden passes are given to the likes of Mackay and that he is judged solely on form.

On CEY, I think he has been treated somewhat badly since Walsh died and should be given every chance to force his way into the team next year, and hold his position, if good enough. I agree that, if he fails to come up next year, he should be considered for delisting/trade, whatever.

 

[ad victoriam]

Say what you like most who watched the SANFL, would agree CEY tore it up, most thought he was brownlow favorite yet didnt pole well, I suppose that is the opinion of those handing out votes. If CEY wasnt in teh guts in the two's this year we would have lost a number of games more.

Im not saying he will be a champ, but his effort is deserving of him to be given the opportunity, more so than any other seconds player, but Wigg also deserves a shot. The question is how many deserve a go without taking too much away from the team.

Marty for a strong SANFL supporter you made a big fopa, You would struggle to one person who believed CEY was a Brownlow Favourite in 2016.