List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread - Part II

[The_Snake26]

Forgive my language but **** on that. Constable can hardly get a game at Geelong and Jack is our best player. Geelong can argue age and risk all they want but at the end of the day if you want a clubs best player you give more than leftovers.

There’s no shame not getting a game in your second season competing with a midfield that includes: Dangerfield, Ablett, Kelly, Selwood x 2, Menegola and Duncan.

Reading his draft profile he’s 191cm who does his best work at the stoppages.
He’s 20 yrs old. Has exposed form ave 21 possies and 4 tackles in his 7 games this year. And kicked 5 goals.
His upside looks pretty good

 

[majortinkle]

Probably because on exposed form he looks like he'll make it to a decent level. You would be salvaging something from Stuv wanting out I guess. I think it was a in his first few games he had 30 impressive possessions playing inside mid.

And how confident can we be about Bytel's back and a lack of footy for 2 years?

Also if Bytel is quicker they might be able to play together - would Steele, Constable & Bytel work as a primary mid rotation?

We need some options even if we may not need multiple Dunstans in their prime

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I get all that.

My concern is if we hold Jack against his wishes then we run the risk of getting another 2019 version, which is basically a non player.

Try to get what we can, but if he really wants to go we can’t have a situation where the trade period finishes and he’s still at Moorabbin.

And I’m saying that as someone who loves Jack.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but i'd ask for something substantial.
If it wasn't forthcoming i'd be happy if we just went straight to Mediation and accept the outcome.
( ie not like Dodo/Essendon and the Paddy Ryder deal ).

 

[bird_man]

There’s no shame not getting a game in your second season competing with a midfield that includes: Dangerfield, Ablett, Kelly, Selwood x 2, Menegola and Duncan.

Reading his draft profile he’s 191cm who does his best work at the stoppages.
He’s 20 yrs old. Has exposed form ave 21 possies and 4 tackles in his 7 games this year. And kicked 5 goals.
His upside looks pretty good

He's also very versatile. Can play back and forward.

 

[majortinkle]

You need about 6 to 10 these day who play mid and then back up. He's not going to get pushed out easily on current form but if he drops off or someone is ahead of him we have a capable back up. Geelong have guys like Selwood, Duncan and Guthrie and didn't dump them when they got Danger or Ablett back.

To be fair every single one of those listed is just as good (or better) in another position as they are in the guts. That is the potential issue with Crouch and Dunstan - can they be in a primary mid rotation alongside steele - I'd say not so one of them is backup only and it is unusual to have backups at their prime playing age.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

To be fair every single one of those listed is just as good (or better) in another position as they are in the guts. That is the potential issue with Crouch and Dunstan - can they be in a primary mid rotation alongside steele - I'd say not so one of them is backup only and it is unusual to have backups at their prime playing age.

Steele has been lining up in the middle, and performing a run-with role.
If Crouch was in the team, he could line up in the middle less.
Gresham very good in the guts, but i'd rather have Crouch in there.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Steele, Ross, Crouch, Gresham, Constable, Bytel, Hill, Acres, Clark, Sinclair, Coffield.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Steele, Ross, Crouch, Gresham, Constable, Bytel, Hill, Acres, Clark, Sinclair, Coffield.

Newnes

 

[The_Steadier]

Brayshaw has been very average this season. He’s a bit of a ball butcher from the games I’ve watched.

It may be an outlier & his 2018 is his real standard...

Or 2018 was the one out of the box.

No way known I’d give up pick 5 straight for him.


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In contract he'd be worth a top 10 pick regardless of this year and his butchering.

OOC somewhere in the ballpark of tmitch to the hawks would be close to the mark ~pick 14.

 

[The_Steadier]

Our moves this off-season all come down to where we see ourselves in terms of competing for top 4 and whether players have a spot in that projected team or not.

From Premiums a 'Cogs away from the premiership', Pluggers '8 players away from Ormond reserves' or Gringo's 'who cares because we'll stuff it up regardless' our list guys will have their view.

They obviously think DMac has a spot, they don't think Dunstan is likely to have one in the long term it seems, but when it comes to Bruce Carlisle etc. it's a case of whether they see us at the pointy end while they're the right side of 30

Regardless they will want to be able to be competitive-ish in the meantime to help sell hope. This year we've proven that the kids can get us by and the majority are likely to improve each year so I don't reckon we'll be as desperate to keep the 27 year-olds as this board thinks....

Brilliant categories.
If I was a journo I'd definately ask lethers at a presser if he is team gringo, premo or pluggs.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

possibly too much in our favor mate. Last year we would've got that deal (plus maybe more) but not now. Even if he plays 3 great games to finish the year, i think we are accepting less.

Yeah there's obviously two schools of thought on this one...

Geelong are trading for a contracted player (who happens to be a multiple B&F winner). His current issues are a bit of an unknown but they'll be backing themselves to support Stuv in sorting himself out. If/when they can do that, they've got a legitimate star to add to their list.

IMO that's what the deal should come down to... if they are saying he's not worth much then they're actually saying that he's in the too hard basket.

I don't think they can have it both ways.

As I said, the Beams deal especially was based on a gun player of the same age as Stuv with MH issues wanting to come home. His trade value was 2 x 1sts and a 2nd back. Beams also had a few other issues that the Pies were aware of and backed themselves to support him through them.

We start the negotiations at 2 x firsts with a 2nd back and see where it goes. Mediation? Yep. We've got precedent from 12 months ago of similar trades involving blokes with off field issues of the same age.

Their first pick at a minimum is absolutely non negotiable IMO.

 

[The_Steadier]

Brad Crouch or Brayshaw?

Tough one- both could fall in a heap injury wise, and I've always really liked b crouch since his first year....
but I'd go brayshaw.
IF we thought the whispers around b crouch not exactly being the most professional athlete going around have any basis.

We'd be looking to pay whichever one ~900K a year.

You don't spend that % of salary cap on a guy with a combination of questionable preparation standards AND extensive injury history.

That's why in my book it's ok for us to pay hanners 800k- because despite extensive injury history, you're never gonna question his prep standards.
Other side of the coin is also true-
it's ok for us to have been paying jack steven same megabucks, despite his 'unorthodox' prep standards (ie not being adverse to beers and meatpies).. because he's had no major injury history.

It's much riskier to take on a bloke on big bucks which has both of those factors over his head (potentially).

Having said that- I would take that risk and spend 900k of cap on crouch, even if he is questionable with his professionalism IF brayshaw wasn't available.

We're desperate- and need to be bold

TLDR:
If we had a choice- I'd go brayshaw if we thought he had an edge in professionalism over crouch.

But Id definately take either, even at the mooted ~900k pricetag.

 

[D2D3]

Tuohy & Henderson were in their prime. Steven is no longer in his prime & sadly has MH issues. Geelong trading their future (& a draft pick) would be stupid. Paying too much for a guy who may not even get on the park would be idiotic. I’d rather them pick Steven up in 2021 as a UFA.

Be welcome to it then. Hope Geelong doesn’t loose the 2020 grand final by less than kick after missing the opportunity to improve their 22 this year.

Anything you give us won’t be worth what Stuv has bought to our club. I see no reason St Kilda should make this easy for Geelong.

 

[St Neil]

18 for Jack would be ideal.

Constable & 36 for Jack and 55 is realistic (possibly with Abbott thrown in).

I think this is the deal, except Geelong don’t get pick 55 coming back.

Just my opinion.

 

[sunny3193]

That was the knock on Josh Kennedy. Constable is a big game player clearance specialist.

Who cannot run out of sight on a dark night.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Logic says Stuv would be part of the Kelly trade since Freo don't have the picks to satisfy the deal.
As B Hill wants out, and S Hill is apparently cooked and headed for delistment, we're in the best position to facilitate both of them. Freo will get a reasonable compo pick for S Hill to even the ledger a bit.
Gellong get a very good replacement for Kelly during a premiership window, and a top 10 pick, which in their situation is very ideal.

And we get the Hill boys.

To me that appears to be enough to satisfy every player and every club.
Whilst anyone can argue that one movement or the other is slightly weighted either way, in the context of the player's desires and their values to each club, it's a piffilling amount that won't influence the final outcome even remotely.

If we were to lose Stuv for say pick 18, then part with p5 for B Hill AND take S Hill who may never play a game, well, that would be about as pissweak as we could get.
As with the JOM deal, the 3rd party facilitator gets a guaranteed profit, whilst the risks and losses fall to the primary parties to sort out between themselves...

Effectively for StKFC it's a straight swap, Stuv out Brad Hill in...

 

[St Neil]

Tuohy & Henderson were in their prime. Steven is no longer in his prime & sadly has MH issues. Geelong trading their future (& a draft pick) would be stupid. Paying too much for a guy who may not even get on the park would be idiotic. I’d rather them pick Steven up in 2021 as a UFA.

Utter rubbish.

Steven won the B&F in 2018 (last year). Early this year when we were flying Steven was an important part of our team. He was playing extremely well under significant personal duress.

He is our best player. Saints will do the right thing by him but we won’t be lowballed. You will be getting an A-grade mid with 3-4 years of top football in him.

This crap about Steven being past his best is at best a reach. At worst a tactic to extract the best player, at a struggling club, on the cheap. Stuff that. Hopefully Saints aren’t stupid enough to cop it.

Geelong can pay up and be fair about it.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Newnes

Assumes Newnes, Steven and Dunstan traded.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Assumes Newnes, Steven and Dunstan traded.

Assumes i forget the wink emoji.

 

[Gosaints12]

Sorry for the intrusion but thought you’d like to know (if you guys don’t already,)but saints heavily into Josh Jenkins,have been for awhile now.

Why? Swap of Third rounder

 

[The_Steadier]

Our midfield situation is tricky.

I honestly believe our inside bash brother combo of Steele and Dunstan shows potential to be really good. They're not old and will only get better. Add in a Crouch and we are set with inside mids for a few years.

Unfortunately, what we need is at least one quality inside/outside mid to take us to the next level. And they don't grow on trees.

Stuv missing certainly doesn't help... where else do you find one? Can we develop from within? Can Gresh become that player? I'm leaving Hanna's out because he's been too many years away from his best.... And Ross, while I like him personally, will never be that A grader we need.

It's frustrating as I don't feel we are as far off as many do in the midfield. But that last piece in the jig-saw is proving nearly impossible for us to either bring into the club or develop.

And it is that last piece that is ultimately holding us back from taking the next step.

Amen brother.
Our midfield are terrible- but it's a relatively straightforward fix.

We just need a couple of guns to take guys like ross, steele, dunstan from our 1st and 2nd best mids, down to where guys of their talent belong- quality 3rd-6th best mids.

If we do that, add in natural progression of guys like clark, gresh, coff, acres etc ....
And maybe steven and hanners?

all of a sudden the defence looks better because it's not raining footballs on them, and the fwds look better because they are actually having the ball kicked TO them occassionally.
Plus the fwds aren't as stuffed when taking shots at goal (thereby increasing accuracy)- because they are spending less time running into defence to support a leaky midfield.

We need to go super super hard landing some crouch type level accumulators.

If we do that, we will see a huge, rapid improvement across the board.

 

[The_Steadier]

Tony Cochrane’s got form...he blustered and blew and refused to give up pick 2 (?) for Weller, and then collapsed like a burst balloon and gave in.

Got to call his bluff.

Did the same with omeara- caved in, despite ridiculous chest beating about 2 first rounders or no deal.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Are you honestly giving up maybe two top 5 picks for king? Seriously.

it wont be two top 5 picks but sure .. why the hell not .. its a known performer who is still got a full carreer ahead of himself who most importantly wants to come to our club ... our strike rate with top 5 draft picks is 50/50 trade in King you know what you are getting

 

[Cattergirl]

Utter rubbish.

Steven won the B&F in 2018 (last year). Early this year when we were flying Steven was an important part of our team. He was playing extremely well under significant personal duress.

He is our best player. Saints will do the right thing by him but we won’t be lowballed. You will be getting an A-grade mid with 3-4 years of top football in him.

This crap about Steven being past his best is at best a reach. At worst a tactic to extract the best player, at a struggling club, on the cheap. Stuff that. Hopefully Saints aren’t stupid enough to cop it.

Geelong can pay up and be fair about it.

That’s fine. Keep him next year. We’ll pick him up for free in 2021 if he gets back to playing senior football. He is a 30 year old player who sadly has mental health issues. It’s a terrible situation, but i don’t think Geelong are going to sell their future after what happened with Mitch Clark.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Fortunately, we aren't negotiating with Geelong nuffies who don't think a player is any good until they get in the door at bogan park.

The Geelong hierarchy on the other hand are respected as good to deal with so I'd expect any trade involving Stuv to be pretty equal for both sides.