List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and Trading Thread - Part 2

[Scorpus]

Updated list position



And 2024 as it stands

Spoiler

 

[Scorpus]

Scorpus I’ve tried to get my head around your table and options.

So we have to delist Rowe and Davis to be able to use our 2 picks, upgrade Butts, Strachan, retain Borlase and Newchurch? Fe

If we want to grab a DFA we need to delist a contracted player?

We have two picks at the main draft, 23 and 46

To use 23 we must delist Rowe

To use 46 we have to delist another contracted senior list player and either pay out their contract or move them to the rookie list

Both Butts and Strachan have reached the maximum 4 years on the rookie list and must be upgraded to a senior list position. Or they can be delisted and re-rookied.

Borlase and Newchurch can be re-signed at no impact to list spots

On the rookie list we have two spots if we delist Davis. One of those spots might be used to delist and re-rookie a senior list player, to free up a spot for pick 46. The other spot might be used on Turner, or a draft pick, or we leave it open for SSP or next year's mid-season draft

 

[Frothiewalker]

So on our list we’ve kept Crouch, Sholl and McAsey who we don’t play. Well done Reidy.

I'm all for pissing on Reid. But come on, what could he of done? No one was interested. Mcasey, Sholl and Crouch are piss.

 

[George Kramer]

I'm all for pissing on Reid. But come on, what could he of done? No one was interested. Mcasey, Sholl and Crouch are piss.

Not bloody give Crouch 2 years for starters, he wasn’t going anywhere, one was enough.

 

[Golumless]

Scorpus I’ve tried to get my head around your table and options.

So we have to delist Rowe and Davis to be able to use our 2 picks, upgrade Butts, Strachan, retain Borlase and Newchurch? Fe

If we want to grab a DFA we need to delist a contracted player?

We can retain Borlase/Newchurch as cat Bs for a third year.

We need to pay someone out to use pick 46 (or convince Seedsman to retire), ditto with a DFA - or we could use the rookie draft if others aren't interested.

So a bit of dead cap for 2023 coming up to get out of this bind. Q

 

[Big Dub]

Thought it might be interesting to compare our list quality to that of a premiership list (Geelong this year). I've used player rankings based upon the Stats Insider ratings (last 40 games and stats only) as it is an objective ranking criteria, not just my rando judgement. It's not perfect, but the top end lines up fairly well against all Australian team/ squad selections and Brownlow votes:

	Geelong	Adelaide
Top 10	1F	0	(Hawkins)
11-20	1F	1M	(Cameron), Laird
21-40	2 (0F 1M 1D)	1F	(Stewart), Walker, (Danger)
41-100	7 (1F 3M 3D)	2M	(Stengle), (Blicavs), Dawson, (Guthrie), (Tuohy), Keays, (Selwood), (De Koning), (Atkins)
101-200	3 (1F 2M 0D)	4 (1F 1M 1D 1R)	O’Brien, Doedee, Smith, Rachele
201-300	8 (2F 3M 2D 1R)	4 (1F 2M 1D)	Fog, Hinge, Sloane, Soligo
301-400	5 (1F 1M 2D 1R)	11 (4F 5M 2D)	Rowe, Berry, McAdam, Easy, Seed, Crouch, Butts, Schoenberg, McHenry, Sholl, Milera
401-500	1 (1F 0M 0D)	4 (2F 0M 2D)	Thilthorpe, Murphy, Jones, Frampton
501-600	2 (2F 0M 0D 1R)	8 (1F 1M 5D 1R)	Gollant, Murray, Hately, Brown, Hamill, Strachan, Parnell, McPherson
600+	4 (2F 2M 0D)	5 (1F 2M 2D)	Cook, Worrell, Davis, McAsey, Pedlar
YTD	10	5	Taylor, Nankervis, Turner, Newchurch, Borlase,

Some themes I picked up:
1. You probably need a couple of elite players (top 20) in your team to win a flag, but you don't necessarily need an elite mid.
2. You probably need multiple mids in the top 100 bracket
3. You don't need a ruck in the top 200 players in the league to win a flag
4. Players in the 500+ bracket play games in a premiership year, and players in the 300+ bracket play in a premiership team

For us:
1. We need to be targeting elite players and those likely to be top 100 (Dawson, Keays and (now) Rankine are our only top 100 players likely to be around in a few years, but you would expect Rachele, Fog, Soligo and Thilthorpe to push in coming years). Rankine was the right call.
2. We need more top 100 mids (and we might as well be targeting elite)
3. Replacing ROB isn't a priority
4. We don't need to cut McHenry, Sholl, Milera, Murphy, Jones, Hately, Hamill or McPherson. Unless we are getting someone better (which isn't going to be from an extra list spot this year, in my opinion).

 

[George Kramer]

We have two picks at the main draft, 23 and 46

To use 23 we must delist Rowe

To use 46 we have to delist another contracted senior list player and either pay out their contract or move them to the rookie list

Both Butts and Strachan have reached the maximum 4 years on the rookie list and must be upgraded to a senior list position. Or they can be delisted and re-rookied.

Borlase and Newchurch can be re-signed at no impact to list spots

On the rookie list we have two spots if we delist Davis. One of those spots might be used to delist and re-rookie a senior list player, to free up a spot for pick 46. The other spot might be used on Turner, or a draft pick, or we leave it open for SSP or next year's mid-season draft

Thanks, what a mess. We badly needed to move on some contracted players.

The player has to agree to be delisted and moved to rookie list don’t they? You’d imagine Seeds would agree. Can’t see Crouch doing it. Sholl might.

 

[George Kramer]

I dislike posts such as these - how do you know we didn't try to move them on but didn't have any takers?

And if the argument is that they shouldn't have been contacted as long as they were, Crouch was a Club Champion who had injury concerns and the club gave him a discounted 2 year deal, Sholl was a two time Rising Star nominee who looked quite good at the start of last year and this year, and McAsey is a young tall we all thought may have bailed after his initial contract.

I don't think there is a huge issue with these guys being offered what they were.

As it stands if none are on our list next year I don't think anyone will be too upset, but to have them on the list in the first place was the right call.

Who cares Crouch was a club champion in 2017. He missed a year and we needed to develop our midfield. He should have been given 1 year and if he didn’t like it, too bad.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

McPherson, McAsey, Crouch, Seedsman & Hately all unlikely to get another contract.
Murphy, Strachan may also struggle.
Sloane, Walker will depend on their bodies.

That’s a lot and you can see why we held our 2023 picks.

Id add to that Jones and Murphy. If Jones hasnt improved I would look at trading him while he has a bit of value and move Laird back to defense to free up a mid space for a Rachelle, Rankine, Taylor.

Murphy will struggle to be best 22.

 

[Golumless]

Thanks, what a mess. We badly needed to move on some contracted players.

The player has to agree to be delisted and moved to rookie list don’t they? You’d imagine Seeds would agree. Can’t see Crouch doing it. Sholl might.

Yup, though I assume whatever they agree to would involve paying out their current contract and then giving them a rookie contract. Crouch might for an extra 60k, especially if he thinks his AFL career is all but done at the end of '23.

 

[Vader]

Yup, though I assume whatever they agree to would involve paying out their current contract and then giving them a rookie contract. Crouch might for an extra 60k, especially if he thinks his AFL career is all but done at the end of '23.

This ends up as a zero sum game - because every additional player moved to the rookie list decreases the number of players we can have on the senior list.

** Why wouldn't Crouch agree to it? It has zero difference as far as the player is concerned, since the AFL changed the rules about team selections.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

So on our list we’ve kept Crouch, Sholl and McAsey who we don’t play. Well done Reidy.

I have a car to sell. I have a better car now and dont need this one anymore. You also have a better car than the one I am selling. Everyone else in this thread have equal or better cars and dont want a surplus car. You need a fridge, old mate needs a mower, joebob needs a new oven. I dont have any of these that I want to sell.

Am I better off giving away the car for free, or just parking it in the drive incase my car breaks, family fly over from sydney, kids need a car etc. Perhaps next year you, old mate or joebob will need a car.

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

After BacktoBacktoBack Premierships for the youngest, least experienced team (almost as valuable as Poort Pear February Flags), we will face a serious challenge from the Hawks this year.

The Hawks trading in recent years makes us look like experts.

• Bring in O’Meara and Mitchell then sell them for a handful of beans
• Winguard, Impey and Phillips to the rescue
• Target Frost and Hartigan to strengthen their defence
• Trade Gunston for peanuts

Almost makes us look competent. I guess every dogs has its day (triple flags buys you a lot of patience from supporters). It always looked like Clarkson was delaying the rebuild and hoping for a miracle.

 

[dogs105]

I'm not sure I understand your math? I might not be reading the previous post correctly, though.

We had 37 and 6 on our list. Brown retires and Frampton is traded.

That gives us 35 and 6, and the ability to use 23 without any other cuts (we can upgrade Butts and Strachan by just changing the list ratio to 38 and 4 as our final numbers, if we choose).

Seedsman and Rowe are both reasonably obvious list management options at that point to clear the space for Michelanney.

I think the math is ...

37/6

OUT
Luke Brown (retired)
Paul Seedsman (retired - re-rookied later)
Billy Frampton (traded to Collingwood for future third)
James Rowe (delisted)
Pick 5

Ben Davis (delisted - R)
Brett Turner (Delisted, re-signed as DFA later)

33/4

IN
Izak Rankine (comes with 46)
Whoever we pick at 23
Max Michelanney (utilising pick 46)
Jordon Butts (promoted)
Kieran Strachan (promoted)

38/2
1 rookie pick, Seedsman (then make him Turner)

Turner is a rookie

 

[dogs105]

Is this correct Vader, Scorpus?


We were 37 main list. 6 cat A rookies, 2 cat B rookies.

6 were: Butts, Turner, Strachan, Parnell, Davis, Murray
(Turner added after Sloane LTI).

(NB Was Keays elevated last year?)

Brown (retired)
Frampton (traded)

makes it 35 - 6 - 2

Rankine in makes it:

36 - 6 - 2

Which is a full list??

OOC: delist Rowe, Davis would make it:

35 - 5 - 2

Promote Butts and Strachan makes it:
37 - 3 - 2

Giving us 1 main list spot (maximum) and one rookie list spot.

We could then take 23, but not 46 until more delistings done?

 

[dogs105]

Possibly more spots from:

Seedsman retiring paid out this year.
Seedsman retiring, re-rookied for payment purposes next year.

Crouch paid out (unlikely)

Sloane retiring, paid out this year (unlikely)

Delisting one or 2 main list players, with intent of re-rookie-ing them?? Who would be candidates?
Sholl?
Crouch?
McAsey?
Need to be careful of a Greenwood-style swoop.

 

[LoBu]

Yea I’ve been in this boat for a few days actually. What if he actually gets back to near his best form. We’ve literally got no one else in the midfield. Imo the thing that he lost was his spacial awareness and evasiveness around the contest, which basically meant he was none effective when he got the ball. His disposal was sideways and backwards instead of holding it and then releasing and setting up someone in better positions.

There is no 'getting back' to his best, it is evolve or die for Crouch 2023. The club keeps telling him what they want him to do, and is not crab around 35+ times a game in the sanfl.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Golumless]

This ends up as a zero sum game - because every additional player moved to the rookie list decreases the number of players we can have on the senior list.

** Why wouldn't Crouch agree to it? It has zero difference as far as the player is concerned, since the AFL changed the rules about team selections.

Converting a rookie spot into a senior spot is not a zero sum game. It's getting a more talented/pedigreed prospect in the club (especially when we have access to a F/S at that point).

I can think of 60k reasons, especially if it's looking like his career is done and can get his current contract paid out. It's firmly about extracting the most out of his professional career.

 

[crows dude]

Is this correct Vader, Scorpus?


We were 37 main list. 6 cat A rookies, 2 cat B rookies.

6 were: Butts, Turner, Strachan, Parnell, Davis, Murray
(Turner added after Sloane LTI).

(NB Was Keays elevated last year?)

Brown (retired)
Frampton (traded)

makes it 35 - 6 - 2

Rankine in makes it:

36 - 6 - 2

Which is a full list??

OOC: delist Rowe, Davis would make it:

35 - 5 - 2

Promote Butts and Strachan makes it:
37 - 3 - 2

Giving us 1 main list spot (maximum) and one rookie list spot.

We could then take 23, but not 46 until more delistings done?

CAT B Rookies
Borlase - To be contracted
Newchurch - To be Contracted

CAT A Rookies
Parnell
Murray
Davis - out of Contract
Butts - to be upgraded
Strachan - to be upgraded
Turner

Cotracted Senior List players
1 - Rankine
2 - Keays
3- Jones
4 - McAsey
5- Murphy
6 - Crouch
7 - Hately
8 - Thilthorpe
9 - Rachele
10 - Sloane
11 - Pedlar
12 - Seedsman
13 - Dawson
14 - Walker
15 - Soligo
16 - Cook
17 - Hamill
18 - Taylor
19 - Hinge
20 - Berry
21 - McAdam
22 - Worrell
23 - mcHenry
24 - Schoenberg
25 - Nankervis
26 - Laird
27 - Milera
28 - Fogarty
29 - Smith
30 - Himmelberg
31 - MacPherson
32 - Sholl
33 - Doedee
34 - Butts
35 - O'Brien
36 - Gollant
37 - Strachan

Rowe - OOC

 

[Vader]

Is this correct Vader, Scorpus?


We were 37 main list. 6 cat A rookies, 2 cat B rookies.

6 were: Butts, Turner, Strachan, Parnell, Davis, Murray
(Turner added after Sloane LTI).

(NB Was Keays elevated last year?)

Brown (retired)
Frampton (traded)

makes it 35 - 6 - 2

Rankine in makes it:

36 - 6 - 2

Which is a full list??

OOC: delist Rowe, Davis would make it:

35 - 5 - 2

Promote Butts and Strachan makes it:
37 - 3 - 2

Giving us 1 main list spot (maximum) and one rookie list spot.

We could then take 23, but not 46 until more delistings done?

It's correct... but not the complete picture of what we're likely to see in the next few weeks.

Additional moves I expect to see are:
Seedsman & Turner delisted (36/2/2)
2x ND selections (38/2/2)
Seedsman + 1x "live" RD selection (38/4/2)
Seedsman moved to the inactive list (38/3/2)
Turner re-signed via the PSSP (38/4/2)

That gives us the ability to make 2x ND & 1x RD selections.

** I'm not sure what the AFL's current mechanism is for moving players from the senior list to the rookie list. We may, or may not, need to delist & re-draft Seedsman. The end result is the same - 1x "live" selection in the RD.

 

[Vader]

Converting a rookie spot into a senior spot is not a zero sum game. It's getting a more talented/pedigreed prospect in the club (especially when we have access to a F/S at that point).

I can think of 60k reasons, especially if it's looking like his career is done and can get his current contract paid out. It's firmly about extracting the most out of his professional career.

Yes... but you're talking about converting a senior list position to a rookie list position, not the other way around.

 

[Rags_118]

It's correct... but not the complete picture of what we're likely to see in the next few weeks.

Additional moves I expect to see are:
Seedsman & Turner delisted (36/2/2)
2x ND selections (38/2/2)
Seedsman + 1x "live" RD selection (38/4/2)
Seedsman moved to the inactive list (38/3/2)
Turner re-signed via the PSSP (38/4/2)

That gives us the ability to make 2x ND & 1x RD selections.

** I'm not sure what the AFL's current mechanism is for moving players from the senior list to the rookie list. We may, or may not, need to delist & re-draft Seedsman. The end result is the same - 1x "live" selection in the RD.

Well analysed.

If Seeds has to be Rookied, hopefully it doesn’t have to be with our first Pick like Gibbs ….. I’m hoping that Verrall slips to P5 in the Rookie draft (unlikely).

 

[Jetafl]

We shouldn't never bring in a player to the club that refuses an ice bath. If it is NOT a rule at the AFC already is has to be.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

After BacktoBacktoBack Premierships for the youngest, least experienced team (almost as valuable as Poort Pear February Flags), we will face a serious challenge from the Hawks this year.

The Hawks trading in recent years makes us look like experts.

• Bring in O’Meara and Mitchell then sell them for a handful of beans
• Winguard, Impey and Phillips to the rescue
• Target Frost and Hartigan to strengthen their defence
• Trade Gunston for peanuts

Almost makes us look competent. I guess every dogs has its day (triple flags buys you a lot of patience from supporters). It always looked like Clarkson was delaying the rebuild and hoping for a miracle.

The list strategies of Clarkson & Mitchell are clearly different...

Mitchell has gone full rebuild mode, but dangerously so with a lack of experience support imo for next season.

 

[Vader]

Well analysed.

If Seeds has to be Rookied, hopefully it doesn’t have to be with our first Pick like Gibbs ….. I’m hoping that Verrall slips to P5 in the Rookie draft (unlikely).

To be fair, Gibbs was our first, last, and only pick in that year's rookie draft.

If we do what I suggested above, we'll have one "live" pick, then Seedsman.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

We shouldn't never bring in a player to the club that refuses an ice bath. If it is NOT a rule at the AFC already is has to be.

Kingy needs to cool down & give himself an ice bath....