List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and Trading Thread - Part 2

[Scorpus]

Updated list position



And 2024 as it stands

Spoiler

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The list strategies of Clarkson & Mitchell are clearly different...

Mitchell has gone full rebuild mode, but dangerously so with a lack of experience support imo for next season.

Clarko is a proponent of the GEEL (Scott) model .....hard to criticise based on what GEEL & RICH are doing

 

[ams4crows]

Kingy needs to cool down & give himself an ice bath....

No, I think it's pretty fair, you're an elite athlete playing in the best league in the country if you don't give a **** about recovery and doing it the right way I can understand why that's looked upon as poor character, also it's selfish and not really a team player.

That spat he had with Goldstein was terrible, you have to respect your senior players when they're trying to help you.

 

[Crows I Am]

We have two picks at the main draft, 23 and 46

To use 23 we must delist Rowe

To use 46 we have to delist another contracted senior list player and either pay out their contract or move them to the rookie list

Both Butts and Strachan have reached the maximum 4 years on the rookie list and must be upgraded to a senior list position. Or they can be delisted and re-rookied.

Borlase and Newchurch can be re-signed at no impact to list spots

On the rookie list we have two spots if we delist Davis. One of those spots might be used to delist and re-rookie a senior list player, to free up a spot for pick 46. The other spot might be used on Turner, or a draft pick, or we leave it open for SSP or next year's mid-season draft

We might decide to delist Strachan and re-rookie him. Would be the lowest chance of being picked up by someone else before we were able to add him back to the list.

 

[Thetrader15]

No, I think it's pretty fair, you're an elite athlete playing in the best league in the country if you don't give a * about recovery and doing it the right way I can understand why that's looked upon as poor character, also it's selfish and not really a team player.

That spat he had with Goldstein was terrible, you have to respect your senior players when they're trying to help you.

You should be respecting all players (coaches, club staff), regardless of seniority.

 

[Crows I Am]

Thought it might be interesting to compare our list quality to that of a premiership list (Geelong this year). I've used player rankings based upon the Stats Insider ratings (last 40 games and stats only) as it is an objective ranking criteria, not just my rando judgement. It's not perfect, but the top end lines up fairly well against all Australian team/ squad selections and Brownlow votes:

	Geelong	Adelaide
Top 10	1F	0	(Hawkins)
11-20	1F	1M	(Cameron), Laird
21-40	2 (0F 1M 1D)	1F	(Stewart), Walker, (Danger)
41-100	7 (1F 3M 3D)	2M	(Stengle), (Blicavs), Dawson, (Guthrie), (Tuohy), Keays, (Selwood), (De Koning), (Atkins)
101-200	3 (1F 2M 0D)	4 (1F 1M 1D 1R)	O’Brien, Doedee, Smith, Rachele
201-300	8 (2F 3M 2D 1R)	4 (1F 2M 1D)	Fog, Hinge, Sloane, Soligo
301-400	5 (1F 1M 2D 1R)	11 (4F 5M 2D)	Rowe, Berry, McAdam, Easy, Seed, Crouch, Butts, Schoenberg, McHenry, Sholl, Milera
401-500	1 (1F 0M 0D)	4 (2F 0M 2D)	Thilthorpe, Murphy, Jones, Frampton
501-600	2 (2F 0M 0D 1R)	8 (1F 1M 5D 1R)	Gollant, Murray, Hately, Brown, Hamill, Strachan, Parnell, McPherson
600+	4 (2F 2M 0D)	5 (1F 2M 2D)	Cook, Worrell, Davis, McAsey, Pedlar
YTD	10	5	Taylor, Nankervis, Turner, Newchurch, Borlase,

Some themes I picked up:
1. You probably need a couple of elite players (top 20) in your team to win a flag, but you don't necessarily need an elite mid.
2. You probably need multiple mids in the top 100 bracket
3. You don't need a ruck in the top 200 players in the league to win a flag
4. Players in the 500+ bracket play games in a premiership year, and players in the 300+ bracket play in a premiership team

For us:
1. We need to be targeting elite players and those likely to be top 100 (Dawson, Keays and (now) Rankine are our only top 100 players likely to be around in a few years, but you would expect Rachele, Fog, Soligo and Thilthorpe to push in coming years). Rankine was the right call.
2. We need more top 100 mids (and we might as well be targeting elite)
3. Replacing ROB isn't a priority
4. We don't need to cut McHenry, Sholl, Milera, Murphy, Jones, Hately, Hamill or McPherson. Unless we are getting someone better (which isn't going to be from an extra list spot this year, in my opinion).

Good analysis.

I tend to agree with the midfield. While it would help with your premiership chances to have that top 10 elite mid in your team, I don't think it is critical. You just need as many A graders in there as you can get. West Coast had a similar structure in 2018 when they won their flag. Shuey, Sheed and Yeo were there starting midfielders, all good players, but not the elite mids like Dusty, Petracca, Bont, Cripps, Oliver type.

To me the key is getting as many of the 'elite' type players into your team who sit in that top 20 on your list, they don't necessarily have to be midfielders though. Looking at our squad we currently have Rachelle, Rankine, Thilthorpe, Fog, Soligo who could all get there. Then Dawson, Laird, Doedee, Berry, Pedlar who all have potential to end up in the 21-40 section.

 

[George Kramer]

I have a car to sell. I have a better car now and dont need this one anymore. You also have a better car than the one I am selling. Everyone else in this thread have equal or better cars and dont want a surplus car. You need a fridge, old mate needs a mower, joebob needs a new oven. I dont have any of these that I want to sell.

Am I better off giving away the car for free, or just parking it in the drive incase my car breaks, family fly over from sydney, kids need a car etc. Perhaps next year you, old mate or joebob will need a car.

How about the fact you’ve parked that car in the drive not being used, you’ve lost the opportunity to get something you need because you don’t have room?

The list managers job is to assess the talent, know who to give contracts to and who not to. Facts are we have no space this year, that’s on the list manager. He gambled on players leaving, but the players HE signed up, no one wanted. Do you think that’s a good thing?

 

[Schulzycrow]

The list strategies of Clarkson & Mitchell are clearly different...

Mitchell has gone full rebuild mode, but dangerously so with a lack of experience support imo for next season.

Tanking obviously.

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

Clarko is a proponent of the GEEL (Scott) model .....hard to criticise based on what GEEL & RICH are doing

Every Flag team is built in a unique way. The common factor (with one exception this century) is they all have at least 3 “Elite” players = potential game changers.

Geelong has built the last 15 years around
1) Three “Elite” father/son picks (GAblett, Scarlett and Hawkins)
2) One exceptional draft in 2001 (Bartel, Kelly, StevieJ)
They have been able to occasionally add an “Elite” player from the draft and more recently stealing some (Dangerflog, Cameron).
No one can repeat this (possibly the Bulldogs with consecutive mercy ****s)

Richmond adopted a more traditional path by lurking at the bottom of the table until they had four “Elites” (Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt and Martin). They then traded in Lunch but have had very few decent draft picks recently. Will Taranto, Hopper and Bolton extend the dynasty? Maybe, maybe not.

In 2017 we had arguably zero “Elites” and we are still 3-4 “Elites” away from being a genuine contender. Hopefully we have traded in two (Dawson and Rankine) plus a couple of the recent draftees May reach “Elite” standard (Thilthorpe, Rachele, ?????).

IMHO, there is little point trading in the remaining A graders we need until we have the “Elite” core.

 

[rabidcrow]

Is this correct Vader, Scorpus?


We were 37 main list. 6 cat A rookies, 2 cat B rookies.

6 were: Butts, Turner, Strachan, Parnell, Davis, Murray
(Turner added after Sloane LTI).

(NB Was Keays elevated last year?)

Brown (retired)
Frampton (traded)

makes it 35 - 6 - 2

Rankine in makes it:

36 - 6 - 2

Which is a full list??

OOC: delist Rowe, Davis would make it:

35 - 5 - 2

Promote Butts and Strachan makes it:
37 - 3 - 2

Giving us 1 main list spot (maximum) and one rookie list spot.

We could then take 23, but not 46 until more delistings done?

Perfect


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[sutts]

Could Rowe be delisted with the promise he'll be taken as a Rookie if he's still available? It does seem like something we'd do.

Bulldogs have had interest in the past, and Gold Coast have a tight salary cap and a few of his good mates playing up there. But neither appear to be an obvious home for him. I could see this as a low-risk play for the club in their eyes - let him explore his options as a DFA, and bank on him being there come rookie draft.

He cops a lot on here, but he clearly does what the coach asks of him otherwise he wouldn't play as much as he does. Also played in a position that doesn't suit his game - like Berry last year.

 

[Vader]

Could Rowe be delisted with the promise he'll be taken as a Rookie if he's still available? It does seem like something we'd do.

Bulldogs have had interest in the past, and Gold Coast have a tight salary cap and a few of his good mates playing up there. But neither appear to be an obvious home for him. I could see this as a low-risk play for the club in their eyes - let him explore his options as a DFA, and bank on him being there come rookie draft.

He cops a lot on here, but he clearly does what the coach asks of him otherwise he wouldn't play as much as he does. Also played in a position that doesn't suit his game - like Berry last year.

Why? Rankine's arrival means that he is now very much surplus to requirements.

It's not as if we have rookie list positions we can just waste on players we've delisted (other than Seedsman, who will be re-drafted due to salary cap reasons).

 

[Redline]

Every Flag team is built in a unique way. The common factor (with one exception this century) is they all have at least 3 “Elite” players = potential game changers.

Geelong has built the last 15 years around
1) Three “Elite” father/son picks (GAblett, Scarlett and Hawkins)
2) One exceptional draft in 2001 (Bartel, Kelly, StevieJ)
They have been able to occasionally add an “Elite” player from the draft and more recently stealing some (Dangerflog, Cameron).
No one can repeat this (possibly the Bulldogs with consecutive mercy ****s)

Richmond adopted a more traditional path by lurking at the bottom of the table until they had four “Elites” (Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt and Martin). They then traded in Lunch but have had very few decent draft picks recently. Will Taranto, Hopper and Bolton extend the dynasty? Maybe, maybe not.

In 2017 we had arguably zero “Elites” and we are still 3-4 “Elites” away from being a genuine contender. Hopefully we have traded in two (Dawson and Rankine) plus a couple of the recent draftees May reach “Elite” standard (Thilthorpe, Rachele, ?????).

IMHO, there is little point trading in the remaining A graders we need until we have the “Elite” core.

I think that's fair, I'd argue Richmond's flags were built around Martin though. Take Martin out and I don't think they win any. I think we have had players equal to the other Richmond names you mentioned. Sometimes one superstar is enough.

 

[FR0GGY]

I have a car to sell. I have a better car now and dont need this one anymore. You also have a better car than the one I am selling. Everyone else in this thread have equal or better cars and dont want a surplus car. You need a fridge, old mate needs a mower, joebob needs a new oven. I dont have any of these that I want to sell.

Am I better off giving away the car for free, or just parking it in the drive incase my car breaks, family fly over from sydney, kids need a car etc. Perhaps next year you, old mate or joebob will need a car.

Yeah but don’t you only have certain amount of spaces for your car?

 

[Ciao Giacomo]

I think that's fair, I'd argue Richmond's flags were built around Martin though. Take Martin out and I don't think they win any. I think we have had players equal to the other Richmond names you mentioned. Sometimes one superstar is enough.

It depends on the definition of “Elite”.

I looked to put together an objective measure and came up with the following;

The player should be playing close to their peak and have been
1) A multiple All Australian (2+ times). This picks up the most influential Ruckman, Key forwards,Key defenders, medium/small forwards, medium/small defenders and midfielders.
It probably undervalues midfielders since the 7th best midfielder is usually more influential than the second best small/medium forward for that year however the AA selectors often adjust for this.

2. Multiple top ten finishes in the Brownlow.

Using this definition only Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Rance and Lynch qualify. Laird also qualifies but he won his two AA as a defender.

In 97/98 we had Hart, Smart, Rehn, Rucciuto, Jarman, McLeod and Goodwin (who was not at AA level in 97/98).

 

[Carmo]

I was sure we would attempt to trade sholl.
If his omission from the team wasn't about him likely heading elsewhere what was it?
Rumoured drinker?
Not enough tackler?

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Yeah but don’t you only have certain amount of spaces for your car?

Park it on the road, not worth that much anyway

 

[1970crow]

So Mitchell to COLL for Pick #27

Therefore, Crouch to West Coast for their Pick #26

View attachment 1533294

You keep equating the 2. I’ve never understood why.

 

[1970crow]

It’s absolutely criminal that we gave so many games to Rowe and Murphy as small forwards this year only to have them spud it up and barely find the goals..

yet couldn’t find one game for Newchurch who was kicking more goals in the Sanfl than Rowe, Murphy and mchenry put together..

anyone would think we weren’t in the middle of a fcckn rebuild.

now it looks almost certain that Rowe will simply be delisted.

what a complete waste of games that could’ve gone to another young player. Just disgusting and downright appalling list management.

List management aren’t selection. That’s on the coaching group. They’re the ones selecting players that are known to not be up to it.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

How about the fact you’ve parked that car in the drive not being used, you’ve lost the opportunity to get something you need because you don’t have room?

The list managers job is to assess the talent, know who to give contracts to and who not to. Facts are we have no space this year, that’s on the list manager. He gambled on players leaving, but the players HE signed up, no one wanted. Do you think that’s a good thing?

Id say the situation of no list positions is more on the recruitment team who brought McAsey to the club, has to be the worst selection of that whole draft. 18 of the top 20 look like players and we picked the worst of them

I know this analogy is about Mrouch but at pick 23, at least he has delivered. 136 games, AA, I doubt there would be 20 players picked in that same draft who have had better careers so the pick was right. Not many would have forseen his type (and mitchells) falling out of fashion so fast.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Why? Rankine's arrival means that he is now very much surplus to requirements.

It's not as if we have rookie list positions we can just waste on players we've delisted (other than Seedsman, who will be re-drafted due to salary cap reasons).

Id sooner see us pay out Seed or McPherson than delist Rowe completely. He is our best at reading the ball off hands deep forward and was played up the ground too much this season. We dream of Rankine having bursts through the middle, why not delist and rookie Rowe. His disposal is miles better than Murphy or Ned

 

[Crow till I die]

Id sooner see us pay out Seed or McPherson than delist Rowe completely. He is our best at reading the ball off hands deep forward and was played up the ground too much this season. We dream of Rankine having bursts through the middle, why not delist and rookie Rowe. His disposal is miles better than Murphy or Ned

Yep..that we are having to let an old school natural footy player go to accomodate someone like mchenry or retain someone like mcpherson who can barely get on the park is pretty average

 

[1970crow]

You just know he’s gonna get 40 to 45 touches a week, absolutely dominate and the Sanfl flogs will still give the magarey to some hack from one of the original clubs!

Are his disposals somehow more valuable at SANFL level. He gets 35 at AFL and that doesn’t even get him selected in the 22.

 

[1970crow]

Yeah 7 list changes minimum

Doubtful

 

[1970crow]

Possibly more spots from:

Seedsman retiring paid out this year.
Seedsman retiring, re-rookied for payment purposes next year.

Crouch paid out (unlikely)

Sloane retiring, paid out this year (unlikely)

Delisting one or 2 main list players, with intent of re-rookie-ing them?? Who would be candidates?
Sholl?
Crouch?
McAsey?
Need to be careful of a Greenwood-style swoop.

After paying out Brown, I doubt we have much room in this year’s cap to pay out Seed. Definitely not a player like Sloane.

 

[dogs105]

After paying out Brown, I doubt we have much room in this year’s cap to pay out Seed. Definitely not a player like Sloane.

Would we be close to 100% normally? 5% of the cap is a shitload of money.