Preview 2022 Rd 4 Carlton vs Gold Coast Sunday 10th April 4.10PM @ Metricon Stadium

[JustaBattler]

Suns games have always been arm wrestles because Carltons midfield was so one dimensional and too many weak spots. With better exits and no up and under exits - Carlton is controlling the ball from CBB. Hawthorn had a magic run of rebound originated scoring last week. This should be the easiest thing to fix structurally.

Last week TDK was unable to make his presence felt in the forward line and hopefully this week he has learned how to position himself to stop being so easily blocked out of play when he is playing forward. Maybe changing up the forward targets would help as well because all Hawthorn had to do was crowd McKay and Curnow out of the game to nullify a lot of wasted entries.

which brings me to make the point where I see greatest and easiest source of greater forward impact as a team - we need multiple targets to kick to - spread out rather than a rinse and repeat kick to McKay and Curnow both trying to make the same mark.

This is where both HFF comes into play and whilst I see Martin as being able to make a contested mark Fisher needs to make himself a target much more than he has shown - otherwise what is he - a link man in the forward fifty to handball to someone else to kick a goal? As a small forward ( which I agree he isnt being played as ) he contributes little to nothing in ground ball crumbling contests at the feet of talls...

Carlton has the talent up forward to kick big scores and the midfield capability of giving them the opportunity to do so - but the team isn't using the resources as well as it could for 4 quarters - there is enormous upside in this team and the coaches have to find a way of better utilising these assets.

 

[ferrisb]

More is expected from Fisher due to him being more talented and a higher draft pick.

Fisher was pick twenty something and has been in the system a long time. Durdin was drafted last year later in the draft and has played a handfull of games. Getting anything out of Owies as Cat B is a bonus.

Supporters having different expectations of each is understandable.

Except that you should be playing the guy with the best actual output not the guy who is outperforming expectations.

 

[Stamos]

Except that you should be playing the guy with the best actual output not the guy who is outperforming expectations.

Unless there's further long-term improvement to come from dropping the player who isn't getting the best out of themselves, or specific things they need to work on. But in general you're right.

 

[ferrisb]

Unless there's further long-term improvement to come from dropping the player who isn't getting the best out of themselves, or specific things they need to work on. But in general you're right.

Was going to say something like that, but wanted to keep it simple.

Essentially, my point is (via simplified example):

Pick 1 is playing like a pick 20
Rookie pick is playing like a guy picked in the 30s.

The pick 1 guy is a massive disappointment.
Rookie pick is fricking awesome.

But you should be playing the pick 1....

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Latest forecast...

 

[ferrisb]

EFA: Large and powerful midfielder conditions are expected to be hazardous for Gold Coastal activities such as clearances, disposal and scoring...

 

[ferrisb]

Light winds are expected to be headed in a Carlton direction at 5pts/qtr early in the match, becoming stronger throughout the afternoon.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Hawthorn had a magic run of rebound originated scoring last week. This should be the easiest thing to fix structurally.

Magic is a good word for it. They got a few cheapies out the back, then had to kick two absolute freak goals just to close the gap. Was interesting that Mitchell said it wasn't a sustainable way to play after the Port game, then did exactly the same thing against Carlton (albeit out of necessity).

Can't say I'm as impressed with Mitchell's coaching as others. Flooding the backline for three quarters because your original structures got smashed to smithereens within the first 20 mins isn't exactly inspiring stuff. If anything it's just disappointing we kept playing into what was a very, very basic trap.

 

[Arr0w]

Suns games have always been arm wrestles because Carltons midfield was so one dimensional and too many weak spots. With better exits and no up and under exits - Carlton is controlling the ball from CBB. Hawthorn had a magic run of rebound originated scoring last week. This should be the easiest thing to fix structurally.

Last week TDK was unable to make his presence felt in the forward line and hopefully this week he has learned how to position himself to stop being so easily blocked out of play when he is playing forward. Maybe changing up the forward targets would help as well because all Hawthorn had to do was crowd McKay and Curnow out of the game to nullify a lot of wasted entries.

which brings me to make the point where I see greatest and easiest source of greater forward impact as a team - we need multiple targets to kick to - spread out rather than a rinse and repeat kick to McKay and Curnow both trying to make the same mark.

This is where both HFF comes into play and whilst I see Martin as being able to make a contested mark Fisher needs to make himself a target much more than he has shown - otherwise what is he - a link man in the forward fifty to handball to someone else to kick a goal? As a small forward ( which I agree he isnt being played as ) he contributes little to nothing in ground ball crumbling contests at the feet of talls...

Carlton has the talent up forward to kick big scores and the midfield capability of giving them the opportunity to do so - but the team isn't using the resources as well as it could for 4 quarters - there is enormous upside in this team and the coaches have to find a way of better utilising these assets.

I would also add, that players looking inside 50, should be looking for the best option, rather than the best target.

If the likes of Harry and Charlie are attracting an additional defender, others would have more space

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

People don't honestly think Pitto was injured last week do they

He was clearly struggling. Not sure why we would take off one of our more important structural players just to get Martin on.
He had 20 hitouts (9 to advantage), 4 score launches, 6 clearances (5 centre) in only 75% time on ground. You don't risk losing that advantage in the middle in a close game. We won centre clearances 18 to 7, largely thanks to Pitto.

 

[Kernafides]

He was clearly struggling. Not sure why we would take off one of our more important structural players just to get Martin on.
He had 20 hitouts (9 to advantage), 4 score launches, 6 clearances (5 centre) in only 75% time on ground. You don't risk losing that advantage in the middle in a close game. We won centre clearances 18 to 7, largely thanks to Pitto.

You're probably right but one of the reasons we may have taken him out is that we were getting torched with run off the rebound...perhaps fresh legs in the dieing minutes was an approach

 

[GordonBlue]

Magic is a good word for it. They got a few cheapies out the back, then had to kick two absolute freak goals just to close the gap. Was interesting that Mitchell said it wasn't a sustainable way to play after the Port game, then did exactly the same thing against Carlton (albeit out of necessity).

Can't say I'm as impressed with Mitchell's coaching as others. Flooding the backline for three quarters because your original structures got smashed to smithereens within the first 20 mins isn't exactly inspiring stuff. If anything it's just disappointing we kept playing into what was a very, very basic trap.

His defence is by far the strongest part of his team and he's using that to give his best chance to win.

The teams that feel they are better, will trust that their system will simply defeat it. However if they start winning a few more game, the teams that are around them will start doing some heavy work to combat their system, which doesn't really have an alternative.

This is why I think they will a few games unexpectedly and lose games they shouldn't.

We went into that game trursting our system was going to get the job done. Our strength is their weakness and that was going to be enough and for a long time it looked like it was. If we play them again, I think we would go in with a plan to counter their rebound game more.

 

[GordonBlue]

People don't honestly think Pitto was injured last week do they

Please don't go listening to Kane!

Watch the relay. 5 minutes into the game he got a knock and struggled to get up. Then on nearly every occasion after that as soon as he fell to the ground, he struggled to get up.

The man battled through a long as he could before he couldn't take it.

 

[JustaBattler]

Magic is a good word for it. They got a few cheapies out the back, then had to kick two absolute freak goals just to close the gap. Was interesting that Mitchell said it wasn't a sustainable way to play after the Port game, then did exactly the same thing against Carlton (albeit out of necessity).

Can't say I'm as impressed with Mitchell's coaching as others. Flooding the backline for three quarters because your original structures got smashed to smithereens within the first 20 mins isn't exactly inspiring stuff. If anything it's just disappointing we kept playing into what was a very, very basic trap.

I said it previously but I would love every team in the competition to try and play this way against Carlton every week ie flood defensively and try the corridor rebound caper and also pray that the ball bounces the right way to advantage in every long range kick....

For Hawthorn it worked repeatedly and it made me a tad frustrated to watch tbh...

After watching the game on replay my conclusions were:

1. They were done and dusted after Q1 and a smarter Carlton would have smashed them by 100 points.
2. They were able to make repeat exits from defensive 50- by hand and run through the corridor - failure by Carlton to cover outside of contest receivers -too many piling into ground ball and failing to keep their feet outside the contest to guard exits - big structural fail in Carlton coaching in my book
3. They were able to (allowed to) isolate Carlton's rebound kick defensive structure to one on one's and exploited mismatches in height - repeatedly
4. No one in the Carlton coaching box identified CJ as their running outlet and put hard tag in him - stoopid ( see point 2.)
5. The only reason that they were able to play this repeatedly was Weitering was the lone intercept marking player out there for Carlton - why were Hawthorn able to achieve one on ones so easily?
Why did Carlton feel the need to follow all their players back to a flooded defensive position and not keep defensive structure?

and finally - if a team is flooding back to block up space and you have a massive lead ( they were defending a massive negative deficit) - why not just control the tempo of the game and force them to come at you in the way you want them to? Why give a team the opportunity to dictate the terms of engagement - when they are the ones who have to turn the game and why did in a manner that ensured your players were exhausted in doing so?

It was really dumb football for 3 quarters and it made Hawthorn look a lot better than they are.

and the flooding defense isn't a new thing - it is the go to strategy for all teams under score board pressure so Carlton ahs to find a way to nulify this tactic.

Hawthorn have a lot of run in their team as their #1 weapon and they are also not a bad contested ball team either - so Mitchell is going to use this strategy a LOT. It wont work against better drilled teams or smarter teams - but it will work enough against enough.

 

[JustaBattler]

I would also add, that players looking inside 50, should be looking for the best option, rather than the best target.

If the likes of Harry and Charlie are attracting an additional defender, others would have more space

100%

Best target should ALWAYS be the best option and this is why I think Fisher is a weakness as an attacking flanker- he is weak option as he can't mark and this is why TDK is useless as a decoy if he doesn't find space and sits flat footed and still as a non target in nowhere land....

 

[cookie monster]

Suns games have always been arm wrestles because Carltons midfield was so one dimensional and too many weak spots. With better exits and no up and under exits - Carlton is controlling the ball from CBB. Hawthorn had a magic run of rebound originated scoring last week. This should be the easiest thing to fix structurally.

Last week TDK was unable to make his presence felt in the forward line and hopefully this week he has learned how to position himself to stop being so easily blocked out of play when he is playing forward. Maybe changing up the forward targets would help as well because all Hawthorn had to do was crowd McKay and Curnow out of the game to nullify a lot of wasted entries.

which brings me to make the point where I see greatest and easiest source of greater forward impact as a team - we need multiple targets to kick to - spread out rather than a rinse and repeat kick to McKay and Curnow both trying to make the same mark.

This is where both HFF comes into play and whilst I see Martin as being able to make a contested mark Fisher needs to make himself a target much more than he has shown - otherwise what is he - a link man in the forward fifty to handball to someone else to kick a goal? As a small forward ( which I agree he isnt being played as ) he contributes little to nothing in ground ball crumbling contests at the feet of talls...

Carlton has the talent up forward to kick big scores and the midfield capability of giving them the opportunity to do so - but the team isn't using the resources as well as it could for 4 quarters - there is enormous upside in this team and the coaches have to find a way of better utilising these assets.

I think this is a very spot on post.

WRT Fisher, he needs to be laid in front of him. 2 or 3 good things a game with very little presence is not good enough from a 5th year player. We need more from him

 

[Arr0w]

100%

Best target should ALWAYS be the best option and this is why I think Fisher is a weakness as an attacking flanker- he is weak option as he can't mark and this is why TDK is useless as a decoy if he doesn't find space and sits flat footed and still as a non target in nowhere land....

2 weeks ago, lead up to the ball, was hit on the chest and kicked truly

Forward lines don't need all players to be strong overhead. While Owies and Durdin, might be stronger in the air, they aren't in the side to be marking options

Harry, Charlie, TDK, Jack, even Martin and resting mids. Add a sprinkle of small pressure types

Plenty of viable options for players up the ground

 

[Arr0w]

I think this is a very spot on post.

WRT Fisher, he needs to be laid in front of him. 2 or 3 good things a game with very little presence is not good enough from a 5th year player. We need more from him

Stop focusing on disposal and goals columns of the stat sheet

 

[Kernafides]

Please don't go listening to Kane!

Watch the relay. 5 minutes into the game he got a knock and struggled to get up. Then on nearly every occasion after that as soon as he fell to the ground, he struggled to get up.

The man battled through a long as he could before he couldn't take it.

Glad he battled on and finally succumbed with 2 mins to go lol

 

[Coops93]

Latest forecast...

View attachment 1366368

weather reports aren't exactly accurate up here.

Supposedly supposed to be raining right now in Southport but I see bright sunshine.

 

[JustaBattler]

2 weeks ago, lead up to the ball, was hit on the chest and kicked truly

Forward lines don't need all players to be strong overhead. While Owies and Durdin, might be stronger in the air, they aren't in the side to be marking options

Harry, Charlie, TDK, Jack, even Martin and resting mids. Add a sprinkle of small pressure types

Plenty of viable options for players up the ground

I am talking forward line system with specific reference to last weeks game - not so much players in the post above.

Who said everyone has to be a contested mark option ? - I didn't - smart players can find space to be an uncontested option or at the very least force a defender to follow them and make some room for marking targets or be front and center for a crumb - I really don't see what Fisher is achieving atm tbh.

Anyway it is only three games in under new coaches - everyone is learning - but so far I don't see Fisher as being particularly impactful in his current role - whatever that is real pity Durdin is a scratch.

 

[GordonBlue]

I said it previously but I would love every team in the competition to try and play this way against Carlton every week ie flood defensively and try the corridor rebound caper and also pray that the ball bounces the right way to advantage in every long range kick....

For Hawthorn it worked repeatedly and it made me a tad frustrated to watch tbh...

After watching the game on replay my conclusions were:

1. They were done and dusted after Q1 and a smarter Carlton would have smashed them by 100 points.
2. They were able to make repeat exits from defensive 50- by hand and run through the corridor - failure by Carlton to cover outside of contest receivers -too many piling into ground ball and failing to keep their feet outside the contest to guard exits - big structural fail in Carlton coaching in my book
3. They were able to (allowed to) isolate Carlton's rebound kick defensive structure to one on one's and exploited mismatches in height - repeatedly
4. No one in the Carlton coaching box identified CJ as their running outlet and put hard tag in him - stoopid ( see point 2.)
5. The only reason that they were able to play this repeatedly was Weitering was the lone intercept marking player out there for Carlton - why were Hawthorn able to achieve one on ones so easily?
Why did Carlton feel the need to follow all their players back to a flooded defensive position and not keep defensive structure?

and finally - if a team is flooding back to block up space and you have a massive lead ( they were defending a massive negative deficit) - why not just control the tempo of the game and force them to come at you in the way you want them to? Why give a team the opportunity to dictate the terms of engagement - when they are the ones who have to turn the game and why did in a manner that ensured your players were exhausted in doing so?

It was really dumb football for 3 quarters and it made Hawthorn look a lot better than they are.

and the flooding defense isn't a new thing - it is the go to strategy for all teams under score board pressure so Carlton ahs to find a way to nulify this tactic.

Hawthorn have a lot of run in their team as their #1 weapon and they are also not a bad contested ball team either - so Mitchell is going to use this strategy a LOT. It wont work against better drilled teams or smarter teams - but it will work enough against enough.

I think Voss is still trying to get the team to learn how to play tempo to ensure we don't get scored on heavily when the other team has momentum and TBH, I think we're bringing it onto ourselves.

When we want to play, we do. Then as soon as the opposition get a goal, it all slows down. I don't mind the logic, but I don't think we've got the timing right just yet.

As we win a few more games and we trust in our game to overpower opposition, I think we'll get the timing of slow down much better.

We're still a work in progress team and will continue to iron out our gameplan to maximum our ability.

 

[GordonBlue]

Glad he battled on and finally succumbed with 2 mins to go lol

He did. Had we maintain our large lead and had an easier game, he would have come off much earlier.

However we needed him and he stepped up, until the sub became of a greater need.

That's what the medical sub is for.

 

[F_therest]

One of Owies strengths is his smarts and getting to the right spots.

I'm not sure Honey is as smart as Owies. To be clear, I don't know either way. Haven't seen enough of Honey. He's certainly got Owies covered athletically.

My memory of Honey is that his field kicking can be a bit hit and miss.

Owies' kicking has been fantastic, particularly hitting up our key forwards with short, lace out passes.

And his pressure has been A grade which is vital.

Honey will need to earn it. Id have Owies in over Fisher right now. He's arguably also fighting Jack Martin for a spot.

 

[goreds]

I said it previously but I would love every team in the competition to try and play this way against Carlton every week ie flood defensively and try the corridor rebound caper and also pray that the ball bounces the right way to advantage in every long range kick....

For Hawthorn it worked repeatedly and it made me a tad frustrated to watch tbh...

After watching the game on replay my conclusions were:

1. They were done and dusted after Q1 and a smarter Carlton would have smashed them by 100 points.
2. They were able to make repeat exits from defensive 50- by hand and run through the corridor - failure by Carlton to cover outside of contest receivers -too many piling into ground ball and failing to keep their feet outside the contest to guard exits - big structural fail in Carlton coaching in my book
3. They were able to (allowed to) isolate Carlton's rebound kick defensive structure to one on one's and exploited mismatches in height - repeatedly
4. No one in the Carlton coaching box identified CJ as their running outlet and put hard tag in him - stoopid ( see point 2.)
5. The only reason that they were able to play this repeatedly was Weitering was the lone intercept marking player out there for Carlton - why were Hawthorn able to achieve one on ones so easily?
Why did Carlton feel the need to follow all their players back to a flooded defensive position and not keep defensive structure?

and finally - if a team is flooding back to block up space and you have a massive lead ( they were defending a massive negative deficit) - why not just control the tempo of the game and force them to come at you in the way you want them to? Why give a team the opportunity to dictate the terms of engagement - when they are the ones who have to turn the game and why did in a manner that ensured your players were exhausted in doing so?

It was really dumb football for 3 quarters and it made Hawthorn look a lot better than they are.

and the flooding defense isn't a new thing - it is the go to strategy for all teams under score board pressure so Carlton ahs to find a way to nulify this tactic.

Hawthorn have a lot of run in their team as their #1 weapon and they are also not a bad contested ball team either - so Mitchell is going to use this strategy a LOT. It wont work against better drilled teams or smarter teams - but it will work enough against enough.

This X10...

Tempo is the key. Stand in the goal square and draw them all the way up.

In EPL terms they call it 'parking the bus' we call it 'flooding'...

The best offensive teams in the EPL pass it across the back 3/4 until the forwards are drawn up, then the forwards have 1v1 situations...

Simple skill, hard to know when to execute...