2022 Victorian State Election-November 26

[PJays]

Just googled and confirmed.

In other words you accused someone of "erroneous information" without having a clue what you were talking about?

Don't try that in your day job. Won't end well.

Still doesn’t allow for people to knowingly infect someone else with a STD.

If they're no longer obliged to test and employers are no longer obliged to ask, what makes you think this wouldn't happen?

Further sex workers have lower infection rates than the general population.

Say what?

Yeah IF this is true, which I doubt, it would be because they test regularly and the infected ones stop working. And with Patten's new laws they don't need to test.

Because Fiona believes in health and safety.

So does Dan.

 

[Twoslabs]

It might swing back in 26.
All those level crossings will be gone by then

This one's a cracker !!!! exactly 18,267 each as of 4 hrs ago with 81.5% counted

 

[Schneebly11]

Long past time Fiona was given the big wave goodbye from the electorate

And holding the balance of power in the Upper House will be 3 progressive parties, Greens, Legalise Cannabis and Animal Justice who will have similar views to Fiona on the sex industry.

 

[PJays]

, Labor in the form of buying voters with an ever ballooning public service and infrastructure projects

An under discussed feature of the state election is the impact of the Suburban Rail Loop.

It's won them several marginal seats.

People vote from self interest not public interest.

Don't worry that economists think it's a monumental waste of money.

Don't worry that they've been talking about it since before the previous election but still haven't produced a full business case.

Don't worry that the auditor general has accused the government of using faulty calculations to justify the project.

Don't worry about any of that. People voted with their pencils.

As it turns out, Labor didn't need these seats to win government. But IF some pollsters had been correct in their predictions just prior to the election, and if Labor had formed a minority government, the SRL could've been the difference between retaining power and losing the election. Or if they'd won a slim majority by 2 or 3 seats as predicted by others, it would've been the difference between majority and minority government.

The lesson for Liberal is- get better at appealing to people's self interest. Whatever that means. Win more votes.

Because Labor is exceptionally good at it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

An under discussed feature of the state election is the impact of the Suburban Rail Loop

It's won them several marginal seats.

People vote from self interest not public interest.

Don't worry that economists think it's a monumental waste of money.

Don't worry that they've been talking about it since before the previous election but still haven't produced a full business case.

Don't worry that the auditor general has accused the government of using faulty calculations to justify the project.

Don't worry about any of that. People voted with their pencils.

As it turns out, Labor didn't need these seats to win government. But IF some pollsters had been correct in their predictions just prior to the election, and if Labor had formed a minority government, the SRL could've been the difference between retaining power and losing the election. Or if they'd won a slim majority by 2 or 3 seats as predicted by others, it would've been the difference between majority and minority government.

The lesson for Liberal is- get better at appealing to people's self interest. Whatever that means. Win more votes.

Because Labor is exceptionally good at it.

So you're afraid of trans and trains

 

[PJays]

So you're afraid of trans and trains

I like centrist, pragmatic governance that makes wise decisions and puts public interest first.

Morrison's Liberal weren't delivering this and rightfully lost power.

It's a shame Andrew's Labor wasn't dealt the same fate.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

You posts suggests you are far from the centre, especially in Victoria. Nobody who is centrists would spend any time debating against trans rights.

This is one thing boomers don't get about milenials.

Gay bashing doesn't work with them because nearly all have gay friends and family

Trans bashing doesn't work because most know someone who is trans.

Race baiting doesn't work because they have had Asian and middle eastern mates since primary school.

Banging on about interest rates doesn't work because most can't afford the house they want so they rent.


But yeah, the way to get the libs in is to keep bashing trans people.

 

[PJays]

You posts suggests you are far from the centre, especially in Victoria. Nobody who is centrists would spend any time debating against trans rights.

I voted for Albanese and Labor this year. In both houses.

I may be somewhat socially conservative but I am pretty close to centre on most "big issues"- economic policy, provision of social services, big vs small government spending, industrial relations, tax policy, etc.

And, let's face it, you don't have to be socially conservative to think Andrews is too "progressive" on issues like the gender stuff (amongst others). Many Labor voters in Victoria would think the same, but those aren't the issues that decide elections. They're niche issues that a small number of people take very seriously.

Labor is winning elections from the middle suburbs because of their infrastructure builds, the covid policy (polls show the public supported the government response, despite the facts and expert analysis pointing the other way), their political machine and exceptional targeted campaigning, Dan's brilliant communications skills, voters long term habits, and because they're a stable government. Not because people agree with their gender policies.

But it's true that Victoria is more "progressive" than Australia. As I said in an earlier post, in some respects Federal Labor's platform is more socially conservative than the Victorian Liberals. On issues like school employment or religious freedom.

 

[PJays]

And by the way, the reason I'm putting "progressive" in quotation marks is I disagree with the way the word is used.

It implies progress. But much of it is regress. Literally.

Progressive economic policies are literally progressive. And some of the social policies are.

No one's ever paid this much government funds for childcare before (except perhaps in some European or Western countries over the past couple of decades). NDIS funds for disabled people. Mandating big emissions reductions.

50% gender quotas in parliamentary representation. Giving indigenous people a voice in parliament.

Those types of policies are progressive. Moving society forward in innovative ways. Trying new things. Things that haven't been done too much throughout history or in Australia.

But many of the "progressive" social policies are not progressive. They are regressive. Elements of the policies on gender, abortion, prostitution, laws which suppress speech, as a few examples. Those are regressive- they literally take society back to ways of thinking and doing things from bygone eras. Failed ways of thinking that society had moved beyond.

To use a less loaded word, it would be more accurate to call "progressive" politicians "changers". They're trying to change the current status quo. This more accurately gives the contrast with conservatives, who believe in retaining or conserving current traditions or the current status quo.

But whether the specific change is actually progressive in a historical sense from a bird's eye view, is debatable in many cases.

 

[Gralin]

Nice selective quoting there.

A more balanced quote would've included the sentence immediately preceding the part you quoted:



And later...



In other words, there's minimal evidence and considerable professional debate. No consensus.

They promote exploratory treatment:



This is why, when the legislation was released, they said, amongst other criticisms:



The college's Victorian branch chair was more blunt in the media:



I guess the chair of Victoria's peak body of psychiatrists is peddling straight up lies, too?

The Victorian government is pushing AFFIRM AFFIRM AFFIRM, and in the process they have banned practices that will prevent psychiatrists, psychologists and psychotherapists from treating vulnerable youth in what is a very complex, developing field of medicine. In their ideological haste, they failed to listen to the feedback and many young people may suffer as a result. An example of a government acting in service of their ideology rather than public interest.

Like I said there is a lot of having it both ways in the statement.
The reality at the end of the day is they recommend gender affirming care though.
There is a section of the psychiatric community that profits off conversion therapy, I'm not surprised the lobby group for psychiatrists wants it both ways even though they are saying really gender affirmation is the best starting point to explore further.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

So you're afraid of trans and trains

Anything with a 'T' it would seem.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

This is one thing boomers don't get about milenials.

Gay bashing doesn't work with them because nearly all have gay friends and family

Don't think you need to be throwing around sterotypes about boomers and millenials, specially seeing as it's mostly Gen X now that is pulling that shit. Plus the correlation seems more to do with conservative (regressive really) social politics rather than generation.

 

[Gralin]

Don't think you need to be throwing around sterotypes about boomers and millenials, specially seeing as it's mostly Gen X now that is pulling that s**t. Plus the correlation seems more to do with conservative (regressive really) social politics rather than generation.

So you're a boomer yeah?

Amazing what people get shitty about, not the big issue, no we don't talk about them..

Generation label's though that's serious stuff

 

[Gralin]

And by the way, the reason I'm putting "progressive" in quotation marks is I disagree with the way the word is used.

It implies progress. But much of it is regress. Literally.

Progressive economic policies are literally progressive. And some of the social policies are.

No one's ever paid this much government funds for childcare before (except perhaps in some European or Western countries over the past couple of decades). NDIS funds for disabled people. Mandating big emissions reductions.

50% gender quotas in parliamentary representation. Giving indigenous people a voice in parliament.

Those types of policies are progressive. Moving society forward in innovative ways. Trying new things. Things that haven't been done too much throughout history or in Australia.

But many of the "progressive" social policies are not progressive. They are regressive. Elements of the policies on gender, abortion, prostitution, laws which suppress speech, as a few examples. Those are regressive- they literally take society back to ways of thinking and doing things from bygone eras. Failed ways of thinking that society had moved beyond.

To use a less loaded word, it would be more accurate to call "progressive" politicians "changers". They're trying to change the current status quo. This more accurately gives the contrast with conservatives, who believe in retaining or conserving current traditions or the current status quo.

But whether the specific change is actually progressive in a historical sense from a bird's eye view, is debatable in many cases.

Dude you couldn't be more sky news cooker bingo if you tried.

Centerists are like unicorns, they don't exist, much like your objectivity

 

[CrowdedHouse]

I like centrist, pragmatic governance that makes wise decisions and puts public interest first.

Kinda sound like a Johnny Howard "centrist" (Right winger trying to pretend they're a moderate).

In terms of the SRL, the overall plan is smart, long-term thinking.

Yes, like any projects, we can debate the fine tuning of some aspects (broad v standard gauge, standalone v network connected, station placement, etc), but it desperately needed to go ahead.

The current train network is CBD-Centric, with most commuters having to travel all the way into (or near) the CBD to transfer lines.

It was designed like that OVER 100 YEARS AGO because business, shopping and entertainment was all in or near the CBD.

As our city has evolved and spread overtime, we saw the decentralisation of things like shopping, with the creation of shopping centres. Even entertainment was beginning to be decentralised for a period there with the old VFL Park out in Mulgrave.

Now, post-COVID and thanks to the NBN, work is being decentralised. Employers have found that employees (in certain industries) can be as (or even more) productive working from home. Thus, the need to travel into the CBD on weekdays becomes less for a large number of people. Those stay at home workers are likely to stay local in their travel, or travel to suburbs away or bypassing the city.

We already know a large number of people avoid the city by travelling on the Western Ring Road, Eastlink and soon NorthEast Link. So, if major roads avoiding the city is a good idea, why not a train link, linking transport hubs, shopping centres, hospitals and universities - all major trip generators?

As you may point to economists, how many of them have ever predicted accurately the state or nation's circumstances 30 years on?

To put it another way, think of Melbourne about 30 years ago. Pretty glum and recession had bit hard. Who would have thought that the city would turn out to be the vibrant place now that it is, on track to surpass Sydney in population by the end of the decade?

With the population growing, so does the traffic nightmare. Not just the new residents moving from Point A to Point B, but also trucks on the road to supply these new residents with food and goods.

The SRL helps ease the traffic pains by giving people who might be travelling from the South-East to East or the West to the North (and so on) an option to leave the car at home and take the faster train service instead.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Don't think you need to be throwing around sterotypes about boomers and millenials, specially seeing as it's mostly Gen X now that is pulling that s**t. Plus the correlation seems more to do with conservative (regressive really) social politics rather than generation.

It's a math issue. I'm gen X, but the reality is if you came out in my high school you would have been killed. And our level of cultural diversity was the Greek kid and the German kid and the half dozen English kids.

The boomers were worse. Remember in the 50s and 60s homosexuality was still a crime in Australia, and people were arrested for it. So anyone who was gay was deep deep deep in the closet.

And for migration, we had no Asian, indian, or middle eastern migration back then - the white Australia policy was the go, and they grew up watching the backlash to Italian and Greek migrants.

Much bigotry comes down to lack of exposure. Reality is boomers grew up in a very straight and very white world, because that was the law back then. Millennials have it completely differently. They have the benefit of the Asian migration booms of the 70s, the 90s and the 00s. They also grew up in a world where sexuality wasn't a binary choice. Ffs watch friends, and you will see how much thing have changed in the last 20 years (let alone 60)

 

[Gough]

AIDS literally changed everything for gay men, it outed people whether they wanted to be out or not and a by-product of that was stereotypes started to disappear.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

AIDS literally changed everything for gay men, it outed people whether they wanted to be out or not and a by-product of that was stereotypes started to disappear.

Yep. And to underline the type of world they were forced to come out in, Reagan delayed work on AIDS prevention and treatment for years because conservative Christians were convinced AIDS was a gay plague and it was doing gods work

 

[Gough]

Yep. And to underline the type of world they were forced to come out in, Reagan delayed work on AIDS prevention and treatment for years because conservative Christians were convinced AIDS was a gay plague and it was doing gods work.

For a young **** the 80s weren't all that reassuring. The only time you saw yourself in the media it was either John Inman and Bernard King or skeletal men covered in KS, neither of which presented much of anything to aspire to.

 

[peetoo]

An under discussed feature of the state election is the impact of the Suburban Rail Loop.

It's won them several marginal seats.

People vote from self interest not public interest.

Don't worry that economists think it's a monumental waste of money.

Don't worry that they've been talking about it since before the previous election but still haven't produced a full business case.

Don't worry that the auditor general has accused the government of using faulty calculations to justify the project.

Don't worry about any of that. People voted with their pencils.

As it turns out, Labor didn't need these seats to win government. But IF some pollsters had been correct in their predictions just prior to the election, and if Labor had formed a minority government, the SRL could've been the difference between retaining power and losing the election. Or if they'd won a slim majority by 2 or 3 seats as predicted by others, it would've been the difference between majority and minority government.

The lesson for Liberal is- get better at appealing to people's self interest. Whatever that means. Win more votes.

Because Labor is exceptionally good at it.

There’s plenty of business cases

Now look at regional roads and upgrades. They can be around 20c in the dollar. They still do them accessibility

 

[peetoo]

I think you can add to boomers sheltered view is what position tax plays in our lives. This might be due to boomers being brought up on neoliberal policies.

Boomers live and die on tax cuts and middle class welfare. Millennials support welfare and don’t have the same reaction to tax cuts. Most millennials understand that services are necessary to a functioning society and don’t have the “what’s in it for me” demands.

This changes the way politicians are going to pitch for votes going forward. They may need to have plans and vision and not just promising tax cuts.

Boomers as youngsters were far more left than today. See all the mao and Guevara t shirts and posters from back then

 

[peetoo]

I think that’s what they tell themselves.

However they certainly cashed as lol their left wing chips in for profit. If you follow the emergence of neoliberalism is was when the boomers started becoming asset owners and transitioning out of youthful welfare.

Will certainly be labelled the worst generation in the history of the world in the history books.

We are still fighting the good fight to CONSERVE collective institutions like public health public education etc etc

I think some younger confuse boomers with previous generation attitudinally. But of course why wouldn’t they?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Mate, I've been on picket lines where their weird nose ring blue hair uni student members turn up and watching them try to talk to workers is the best comedy around. The most cringe s**t ever.

Nothing wrong with having a nose ring and blue hair. I find that attractive, maybe because I know they'll be leftists too. But if I found they're Socialist Alternative, I run a mile.

 

[pazza]

In the end, it looks like Labor 55/56. In other words basically status quo from last time.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

In the end, it looks like Labor 55/56. In other words basically status quo from last time.

I'm stunned the alp may end up not losing any seats.

I was expecting around 10 to fall