List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

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SaintsSeptember said:
Midfield in order of games played.
2011 CJ, BJ, Dal, Montagna, Armitage, Steven, Ray , Polo, Cripps, ( Lenny missed most of the season ). Finished 6th.
2012 Hayes, Montagna, DalSanto, McEvoy, Steven, Armitage, BJ, CJ, McEvoy, Milera, Cripps, Ray, Newnes ( Out Polo, in Newnes/Milera). 9th
2013 Steven, McEvoy, DalSanto, Montagna , Armitage, CJ, Ray, Newnes, Hayes, Hickey, Ross, Milera. ( Out BJ and Cripps, in Ross and Hickey ). 16th
2014 Newnes, Ray, Hayes, Montagna, Steven, CJ, Dunstan , Armitage, Ross. Saunders ( Out Milera , DalSanto, McEvoy in Dunstan and Saunders ). 18th
2015 Steven, Newnes , Armitage, Dunstan, Longer, Montagna , Hickey , Ross, Ray. ( Out CJ, in, idk, minch, mckenzie, wright wherever they played ).14th
2016 Steven , Ross , Montagna, Newnes, Armitage, Hickey, Dunstan, Minchington? McKenzie? 9th
2017 Ross, Newnes, Steven, Steele, Longer Dunstan, Montagna, Stevens Hickey ( In Stevens, out miscellaneous Joey HBF?). 11th.
2018 Steven , Gresham , Newnes, Ross, Steele, Billings, Dunstan , Armitage, Hickey ( Out Stevens ). 14th
2019 Ross, Billings, Steele, Newnes, Gresham , Dunstan, McKenzie. ( Jack Steven just 7 games, Dan H 5 14th. ( Richo leaves ).
2020 Gresham, Ross, Dunstan, Steele, Hill, Hannebery, Billings. ( in Hannebery ( 8 games ) , Hill, out Steven and Newnes ). 6th
2021 Hill, Steele, Crouch, Ross, Billings, Byrnes, Jones, Bytel, Marshall, Dunstan, Ryder, McKenzie, Wood , Hunter ( in Byrnes, Crouch, Wood, Hunter, Out Effectively out Dan ). 10th
2022 Crouch , Ross, Hill , Marshall, Gresham, Steele, Windhager, Jones, Ryder, McKenzie, Byrnes, Billings. 10th
2023 Crouch, Byrnes, Marshall, Sinclair, Gresham, Hill, Owens, Ross, Steele, Clark, Windhager

its like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and the coaching seems to make no difference.
Thanks Ross for the presser where you carefully explained that the team was crap. Being the coach and all, do you intend to fix it?
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Ross hasn't had a chance to make any changes to the team, the only players he's been involved in bringing in are the kids from the draft, Stocker and Caminiti. Give them an offseason to fix up the problems.
 
BigMonty said:
GWS have salary cap issues.
GCS have too many players and getting 3 academy picks...plus they have the list concessions running out...they will have to move players on.

We need mids and that's why Caldwell wanted to come until we got Crouch and had little draft capital to do much else...sadly.

If we lose Gresh then we will get a pick in the 20s. That's 3 picks inside 30. If Whitfield is true we get another first rounder.

Be a few players thinking I am a chance for a regular mid spot at the Saints and with RTB as coach...looks a good option.

Flanders is behind the 3 incumbents and probably a couple of others. He would be thinking maybe a new start is better, the same with Fiorini and even Hewitt.

Paddy Dow in the same position and there are probably a couple of others at other clubs. Remember that's how Jack Steele started at Saints from a lack of opportunity at GWS.

Use one max two of our 20s picks to get some extra mids in and get best available in the draft from our first pick and even better am extra from Whitfield pick.

You would think that next year's injured coming back would be DMac Clarke Coff Hayes and King...with jury out on Billings Hill Membrey Dougs and Ross...so there are spots available if your skills and commitment are good enough.



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The Goldy academy kids are a star key forward, a ruck and a small forward that can play some midfield. Flanders just has to be able to run through the midfield and forward line. The Suns seem to move Touk Miller out of the middle for him some weeks but he'll still have to rotate because Rowell and Anderson look like their preferred midfield.

If he wants success and likes the GC he probably stays there. If he wants a permanent mid role we are the ideal club.

Have a bit of a look at Jeremy Sharp, I reckon he's the next down from Flanders and too good to be stuck in limbo.

Harry Sharp from Brisbane would be worth a sniff around too. Those Brisbane guys have Fletcher and Ashcroft ahead of them and will be looking around for opportunity.
 
jh38 said:
Ross hasn't had a chance to make any changes to the team, the only players he's been involved in bringing in are the kids from the draft, Stocker and Caminiti. Give them an offseason to fix up the problems.
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I really really hope that Ross doesn't become involved in list management over and above, "i'd like a small forward, or i'd like an inside mid ".
Leave it to the experts.....do we have experts?
 

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SaintsSeptember said:
I really really hope that Ross doesn't become involved in list management over and above, "i'd like a small forward, or i'd like an inside mid ".
Leave it to the experts.....do we have experts?
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$64 million question.
 
BigMonty said:
GWS have salary cap issues.
GCS have too many players and getting 3 academy picks...plus they have the list concessions running out...they will have to move players on.

We need mids and that's why Caldwell wanted to come until we got Crouch and had little draft capital to do much else...sadly.

If we lose Gresh then we will get a pick in the 20s. That's 3 picks inside 30. If Whitfield is true we get another first rounder.

Be a few players thinking I am a chance for a regular mid spot at the Saints and with RTB as coach...looks a good option.

Flanders is behind the 3 incumbents and probably a couple of others. He would be thinking maybe a new start is better, the same with Fiorini and even Hewitt.

Paddy Dow in the same position and there are probably a couple of others at other clubs. Remember that's how Jack Steele started at Saints from a lack of opportunity at GWS.

Use one max two of our 20s picks to get some extra mids in and get best available in the draft from our first pick and even better am extra from Whitfield pick.

You would think that next year's injured coming back would be DMac Clarke Coff Hayes and King...with jury out on Billings Hill Membrey Dougs and Ross...so there are spots available if your skills and commitment are good enough.



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I don't know who Lyon and his crew have there hooks into but they would be looking at everyone .

The remaining games this season are going to tell us a lot , will Coffield show anything when he comes back , are they going persist with players like Gresham , does he need time in the 2s to wake him up , how is Hayes going to perform when he comes back , will Billings be in the teams future plans.
Just these few players will have a big outcome on who we try to entice to the club.

After the loss to the Suns the over reaction of people saying gut the team and rebuild is over the top.
Lyon would of got the job by saying he is coaching to win a flag not to rebuild the side and anyone saying the opposite are dreaming because why would Basset and Leathlean want to blow up everything they have done.

Any our team has finally started to get hold of quality young players and as it has been said on here our core will be based around King , Milera , Owens , Windhager , Higgins , Clark , Coffield , Phillipou , Stocker , Battle , Caminiti with the likes of Heath , Keller , Hotton , Adams and Van Es looking like developing into AFL standard players and I'm leaving out players like Sharman , Byrnes , Peris , Bytel , Connolly , Allison who have the ability but the jury is still out on them.

So saying we need a rebuild is a joke when we have recruited a host of young players , the oldest being Clark and Coffield who have had excuses due to injury.
Just Milera , Windhager , Owens , Phillipou , King to me are stars of the future and I truly believe they have the grit to get there.

I've been waiting for the return of Coffield who now looks like a beast , he was picking up intercept marks at will as a 20 yr old now he could take it to a whole different level.
And this kid Keller looks to be a ripper as well - his skills are elite and being nearly 2m tall and just turned 19 I feel we have a star in this kid.

So Lyon took on the job most probably saying that he will have the team fighting for a flag with in his 4 yrs or they would not of even hired the guy - it will be touch and go if we make finals this year but I feel we will scrap in.
And in saying that not having King , Membery , Coffield , Billings , Jones , Clark , Hayes for most of the season is really a big hole in the experience and strength in the team and adding to that the form of Steele and the disappointment of Gresham development has really hurt us.

But in saying this our young core with a full fit team list there is no reason we could not of been fighting for the top 4 .
The games we lost against Hawks , Crows , Suns , Tigers are games really we should of won with a healthy squad , we would of already of sealed our spot in the 8.

We have the players we just need to get them into the team and gel.
And I'm telling you this these first yr and 2nd year kids we are playing now are going to be different players next year , knowing they can mix it with the best now as kids.
Even this Hammer kid at 19 he already is doing a job without really any AFL preseason so how is he going to in a couple years.

The list is far from finished but with just a couple of tweaks the team could really turn the corner.
What if GWS unloaded Kelly to us to get him off the books and we pick up Ben King for Membery and change and we picked Liam Henry from the Dockers and Free agent in Hemelberg ---- the team would be a totally different side.

In saying this I feel we only need to pick up a Kelly type and a kid like that Flanders to improve our mid field and a forward /ruck in Tom DeKoing or Ben King to fix our current problems.
 
Diehard Saint said:
$64 million question.
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He will have a say on what he needs he is the coach and the guy with the game plan , but the thing is to me they have to pick the types of players who can handle a dressing down and with a lot of these kids have never been put under intense pressure so finding the right players is not as easy as picking the best kids in the draft.
Has the soft handling of our prized early draft picks in Clark , Coffield and even Gresham damaged them - sometimes they need a good rev up to wake them up and I hate to say it the Richo , Ratten nice guy approach doesn't cut it.

You only have look at the work ethic of Windhager and Owens - mentioning this the much maligned Byrne is a kid who may not be a world beater but he has the drive to get the best out of himself even though he might not make the cut in the end he has the balls to give it his best shot - these are the types you want to drive the work ethic through the team.
Wood is another example.

But looking at the other side of it - a guy likr Steele was made to drop weight to improve his running , has this flatten to the extent he is a spent force - sometimes you are not better in tampering with something that works just go after what is not working.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Not sure if i go along with the "hey we're still second rate, but better than we were" plan.
I don't see any point head hunting less than elite mids.
Unless you want a less than elite midfield.
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Fully expect they will go after a elite midfielder that will be moved for salary cap space - who that is I don't know they have the cap space to pick up a couple big dollar players and who knows more if they unload a couple of our guys who want out.
Could be a Kelly or a uncontracted Ash - whoever they get they have to be good / this is what is killing us.
Henry from the Dockers will most probably be a target as well but they need a leader in the midfield.
Crouch is a keeper , so is Steele / hopefully he regains his form but they are not the game changer you need in the middle , they complament the midfield but don't make it standout - DeGoey was one but we didn't get him so now it's up to SOS and Gubby to find the missing link.
We don't need Whitfield - we need a fleet footed elite mid to go with our blue collar mids in Crouch and Steele until Owens , Windhager , Phillipou hit there straps.
 
Something to keep in mind. Our list future is with SOS and Gubby - not the coach.

“Their importance (of list managers) is in their independence, and they must stay independent,” adds Rohde of list managers and their need to avoid sentiment in the deciding a player’s future.

Rohde notes the danger every AFL club faces when a dominating senior coach has the greatest influence on recruiting and re-signing of players. This can put list management on the path to long-term pain.

“I would tell coaches (when working in the AFL system at Port Adelaide and the Western Bulldogs) that you are there to coach players – and coach them until they are no longer here. That decision on when a player moves on is not for the coach.”

It is for the list management team."
 
Those last two lines are BS.

If a coach wants to keep a player, and the player wants to stay, the list team aren't gonna push them out against their will...

That would be the sort of thing that destroys the culture of a club.

Wouldn't you agree Mr Pelchen?

1689509701727.png
 
Stop wasting time & make Andrew Brayshaw an offer he can’t refuse to come home

Would change the midfield over night
 

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Winmar2Lockett said:
Did you think that last week, when he took Gawn & Grundy to the cleaners?
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No one thinks Marshall isn't good enough. Obviously he can have huge games when he can be bothered. The problem is that he never does it consistently enough. If he found his consistency then he would have at least been in the AA squad by now, but he hasn't - seems happy just being everyone's fantasy pick.
 
bergholt said:
No one thinks Marshall isn't good enough. Obviously he can have huge games when he can be bothered. The problem is that he never does it consistently enough. If he found his consistency then he would have at least been in the AA squad by now, but he hasn't - seems happy just being everyone's fantasy pick.
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He’s just physically outmatched most weeks. Everyone’s bigger than him and he doesn’t have the leap to make up for it. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that ever since he became our #1 man in 2019 that we’re constantly linked to other ruckman, they know he’s not big enough to consistently give a contest every week.

We’re getting torched at clearance which didn’t happen anywhere near as often as when Ryder was playing. Taps aren’t everything but at minimum you need a contest and unfortunately I don’t think Marshall can consistently give that. We’re seeing weekly that he can’t.
 
hayes said:
He’s just physically outmatched most weeks. Everyone’s bigger than him and he doesn’t have the leap to make up for it. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that ever since he became our #1 man in 2019 that we’re constantly linked to other ruckman, they know he’s not big enough to consistently give a contest every week.

We’re getting torched at clearance which didn’t happen anywhere near as often as when Ryder was playing. Taps aren’t everything but at minimum you need a contest and unfortunately I don’t think Marshall can consistently give that. We’re seeing weekly that he can’t.
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He's not physically outmatched most weeks. There have been a few games where he has lowered his colours, Witts and the Brisbane guy come to mind, but most weeks he actually beats his opponent.

I see his drive and determination as a positive characteristic. There are things that he needs to improve on but he's having his best season after three years playing as a forward/ruck. If we were going to trade him out I'd want a massive return, thinking two first round picks at least if that's what Freo want for Darcy because Marshall seems just as good if not better than Darcy.
 
hayes said:
He’s just physically outmatched most weeks. Everyone’s bigger than him and he doesn’t have the leap to make up for it. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that ever since he became our #1 man in 2019 that we’re constantly linked to other ruckman, they know he’s not big enough to consistently give a contest every week.

We’re getting torched at clearance which didn’t happen anywhere near as often as when Ryder was playing. Taps aren’t everything but at minimum you need a contest and unfortunately I don’t think Marshall can consistently give that. We’re seeing weekly that he can’t.
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In 2017 after 17 games we won one more game than what we have without Ryder this season.

We also had Jack Steele in career best form.

The major problem is and will always be our average midfield.
 
Marshall is not our weakness its our lack of a decent 2nd ruckman and midfield quality. After Saturdays game I think we do need to be aggressive come trade time but Marshall has to stay.

Its now obvious the team doesnt have the depth required and are not consistent enough. I said it a month ago if we play finals we will just fall in nothing more.

If we can bring in Tom De Koning or Matt Flynn, Sam Flanders and Paddy Dow over the trade periods and get somewhere near our full strength side on the ground next year then things will change quickly.
 
Last edited:
Flanders would be great and ideal, but will suns let him go?

Parish has to be priority, FA and hits all the KPIs we are looking for in our midfield.

Jimmy Worpel? Out of contract
 
St Kilda Death said:
Flanders would be great and ideal, but will suns let him go?

Parish has to be priority, FA and hits all the KPIs we are looking for in our midfield.

Jimmy Worpel? Out of contract
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I think Worpel is a bit limited, but a rung above the likes of Constable or Bytel. Not sure if he's something we should pay picks or salary for.
Hawks did very well with their late picks when they traded out of some of the drafts.
Worpel was the pick before Paton. ( 10 picks after Clavarino ). Sicily was a really late pick too.
 
hayes said:
He’s just physically outmatched most weeks. Everyone’s bigger than him and he doesn’t have the leap to make up for it. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that ever since he became our #1 man in 2019 that we’re constantly linked to other ruckman, they know he’s not big enough to consistently give a contest every week.

We’re getting torched at clearance which didn’t happen anywhere near as often as when Ryder was playing. Taps aren’t everything but at minimum you need a contest and unfortunately I don’t think Marshall can consistently give that. We’re seeing weekly that he can’t.
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The old Hickey v Longer. One is an "around the ground" extra mid type. One is a unidimentional old school tapper. You carry the tapper to feed your good mids. If you don't have the A grade mids to carry a guy like Marshall or English who is going to play like an extra mid, you wish you had a tap ruck. If you have the mids you don't need an extra mid/ruck as much.

I don't think you can carry both so unless your second ruck has forward craft or can sit across HB as a spare they are a bit wasted.
 
beside the seaside said:
He's not physically outmatched most weeks. There have been a few games where he has lowered his colours, Witts and the Brisbane guy come to mind, but most weeks he actually beats his opponent.

I see his drive and determination as a positive characteristic. There are things that he needs to improve on but he's having his best season after three years playing as a forward/ruck. If we were going to trade him out I'd want a massive return, thinking two first round picks at least if that's what Freo want for Darcy because Marshall seems just as good if not better than Darcy.
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He usually struggles against the really huge guys. Witts is a beast and manhandles most other rucks. I rate him as close to the best ruck in the league.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
I think Worpel is a bit limited, but a rung above the likes of Constable or Bytel. Not sure if he's something we should pay picks or salary for.
Hawks did very well with their late picks when they traded out of some of the drafts.
Worpel was the pick before Paton. ( 10 picks after Clavarino ). Sicily was a really late pick too.
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Constable would be worth a look if he was free. He looks the goods this year. He went to the wrong club and won't ever get a look in there but still has a bit to offer as depth and maybe more. Bytel is neat but he's a bit like all our mids in that he's not really brilliant in any one area. At least Constable can win his own ball with ease.
 
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