List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

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chris_h_11 said:
North can GAGF

Where's our help? Where's our compo for McCartin? Why does Cam McKenzie play for Hawthorn? Where's our priority picks for the Watters/Richo dark ages?

1 finals series in 12 years is as much of a basketcase as any. North have finished in the top-8 four times in that same period, including 2 prelims.
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💯 this is what shits me. You listen to their supporter bang in about how good of a group of young talent they have but then go with their hand out to the afl. If they change the rule for their nga Il be very dirty. Where is our help
 
Wouldn’t mind Bailey smith but is everyone forgetting he’s the worst kick in the afl by a country mile? Makes Luke dunstan look like Nasiah wanganeen milera
 
chris_h_11 said:
North can GAGF

Where's our help? Where's our compo for McCartin? Why does Cam McKenzie play for Hawthorn? Where's our priority picks for the Watters/Richo dark ages?

1 finals series in 12 years is as much of a basketcase as any. North have finished in the top-8 four times in that same period, including 2 prelims.
Click to expand...

Under the old system we couldn't have got Phillipou AND McKenzie, but we could have traded our first round pick for a good play and taken McKenzie with later picks. However i'm still pretty happy with all the players we picked up in the draft last year.
 

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SaintsSeptember said:
Under the old system we couldn't have got Phillipou AND McKenzie, but we could have traded our first round pick for a good play and taken McKenzie with later picks. However i'm still pretty happy with all the players we picked up in the draft last year.
Click to expand...
If Mackenzie was available to us then I think we would have pushed up from pick 9(10). In that scenario it might cost you quite a bit to even get up to 6 or 7, but it would still be worth it given how we would have paid for Mackenzie.
 
_Maximus_12 said:
We are not in a ‘gut the list’ rebuild, we’re in a ‘cut the dead-wood’ position.
You still need senior leaders, and we’ve seen before to take us forward and help develop the younger players in combination with the coaches.
However, we’ll start to put a line through those senior players who don’t provide a consistent line of form, and continue to make the same mistakes.
Players like Howard, Gresham, Seb, Battle, Webster & Hill will be in strife over the next two years and should be moved on.
These are the players that are stunting the development of a kid, but not moving the needle themselves.
Click to expand...
All clubs attempt to improve the list every year hopefully we continue with picking up talented kids in the draft.

We have picked up a few key tall position players like Van Es , Adams , Heath , Keller that are all around 2m or over and hopefully the force players like Howard out of the 22.

Players like Ross and Webster are both 30 and there best is most probably behind them and will most probably be moved on or given another year - but then again it all depends on how many spots we need to free up in the list.

I'm pretty sure McKenzie since not playing at all this year and past injury problems will be moved on and most probably Highmore , Campbell , Connolly - thats 4 and the way it's looking Gresham could already have his bags packed and a few others could easily go if the list management can get value for them.
Howard got another year on his contract and let's face it he is better than Cordy and with out him we will be hoping one of the kids take a big step next year.
Gresham is a talent but has not delivered what we wanted so if he goes we need to get something as good or better - Henry from Fremantle would be a good replacement but the chances of getting him would be slim knowing how we got screwed with Hill.

And Hill we stuck with him until his contract expires in 2025.

But as you say the guys you have mentioned will be lucky to be at the club in 2 years once they are off contract.
Battle is the only on who I feel has still improvement in him.
 
Tommy Wigs said:
If Mackenzie was available to us then I think we would have pushed up from pick 9(10). In that scenario it might cost you quite a bit to even get up to 6 or 7, but it would still be worth it given how we would have paid for Mackenzie.
Click to expand...

It would have, but i prefer Pou.

Like i said, if he'd been available under our old system, we'd have traded our first round pick for a future first rounder, or a player (would have been worth a shot at Taranto under those circumstances ).
Then we would have matched whatever bid came for McKenzie with later picks.

We would not have ended up with Phillipou, Van Es, and Hotten or probably Keeler.
 
Two of my personal faves.
1. Steel “backs”. He said “probably fair enough”. Ie, if the boss is pissed then whatever he said.
2. Seems to be nothing at all that links Hayes as an in other than journo licence.

Forgotten forward Jack Hayes is in the frame to be called upon to fix St Kilda’s scoring woes as Saints skipper Jack Steele says criticism of his club’s list by coach Ross Lyon is “probably fair enough”.
The Saints have a golden opportunity in the next fortnight to shore up their flailing attacking game, which Steele pointed to as a primary concern after Saturday’s bitter 26-point loss to Gold Coast.

St Kilda remains in sixth spot on the ladder, with North Melbourne and Hawthorn to come in the next two weeks, but Steele said missing the finals from here would not mean a failed season.


Jack Hayes is set to return to the Saints’ side. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)

Jack Hayes is set to return to the Saints’ side. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
Lyon brutally said post-match on Saturday that “there is not enough quality” in the St Kilda team to pick up the slack when star performers aren’t at their best and Steele agreed the role playing Saints needed to step up.

Running defender Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera and hard worker Marcus Windhager have performed in recent weeks for St Kilda but the likes of Liam Stocker, Anthony Caminiti, Mason Wood and Dan Butler didn’t have enough impact against the Suns.

St Kilda's scoring wobble​

Stat2023 rank
Points for15th
Socre per inside-50 %18th
Inside 50 differential10th
Forward half intercepts5th
Forward half intercept score %14th
Source: Champion Data

“It’s probably fair enough,” Steele said of Lyon’s assessment.

“Our best performers probably need to just keep things going and keep driving he standards but we probably need the second tier or third tier to lift even more.

“We probably haven’t had that in the last six or seven weeks of football. We saw early in the year when we were contributing evenly to our performances but that has definitely tapered off the last couple of months.”

An undefeated first month marked a brilliant start to Ross Lyon’s second stint at Moorabbin but the Saints have gone 5-8 since as their offensive game has fallen to pieces.


St Kilda still sits in sixth on the ladder but only the bottom three clubs (West Coast, North Melbourne and Hawthorn) have scored less this season.

The Saints are at risk of a second straight year of missing the top eight after a blistering start to the season. (Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)

The Saints are at risk of a second straight year of missing the top eight after a blistering start to the season. (Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)
Lyon bemoaned mistakes kicking inside-50 against the Suns and Steele said he “can’t pinpoint exactly what went wrong but I think our ball movement wasn’t great”.

The Saints rank 10th for inside-50 differential, so they get the ball forward enough, but sit dead last for scores once inside-50.

More Coverage​

Bunnies for big hauls: Which teams goalkickers dominate
16 and done: Is Brodie Grundy finished as a Demon?
Crying out for winners forward of centre, the Saints will weigh up bringing Hayes in for his first game since rupturing his ACL in round 6 last year, with subsequent foot and hamstring injuries keeping him out of action in 2023.

Hayes played in a VFL scratch match at Casey on Saturday and Steele said he “has put his hand up” and “I would love to be able to play with him”.

Livewire forward Jack Higgins (knee) also trained on Tuesday and is set to return if he gets through a test, while Jack Billings (thumb) is an outside chance.
 
Tommy Wigs said:
Two of my personal faves.
1. Steel “backs”. He said “probably fair enough”. Ie, if the boss is pissed then whatever he said.
2. Seems to be nothing at all that links Hayes as an in other than journo licence.

Forgotten forward Jack Hayes is in the frame to be called upon to fix St Kilda’s scoring woes as Saints skipper Jack Steele says criticism of his club’s list by coach Ross Lyon is “probably fair enough”.
The Saints have a golden opportunity in the next fortnight to shore up their flailing attacking game, which Steele pointed to as a primary concern after Saturday’s bitter 26-point loss to Gold Coast.

St Kilda remains in sixth spot on the ladder, with North Melbourne and Hawthorn to come in the next two weeks, but Steele said missing the finals from here would not mean a failed season.


Jack Hayes is set to return to the Saints’ side. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)

Jack Hayes is set to return to the Saints’ side. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
Lyon brutally said post-match on Saturday that “there is not enough quality” in the St Kilda team to pick up the slack when star performers aren’t at their best and Steele agreed the role playing Saints needed to step up.

Running defender Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera and hard worker Marcus Windhager have performed in recent weeks for St Kilda but the likes of Liam Stocker, Anthony Caminiti, Mason Wood and Dan Butler didn’t have enough impact against the Suns.

St Kilda's scoring wobble​

Stat2023 rank
Points for15th
Socre per inside-50 %18th
Inside 50 differential10th
Forward half intercepts5th
Forward half intercept score %14th
Source: Champion Data

“It’s probably fair enough,” Steele said of Lyon’s assessment.

“Our best performers probably need to just keep things going and keep driving he standards but we probably need the second tier or third tier to lift even more.

“We probably haven’t had that in the last six or seven weeks of football. We saw early in the year when we were contributing evenly to our performances but that has definitely tapered off the last couple of months.”

An undefeated first month marked a brilliant start to Ross Lyon’s second stint at Moorabbin but the Saints have gone 5-8 since as their offensive game has fallen to pieces.


St Kilda still sits in sixth on the ladder but only the bottom three clubs (West Coast, North Melbourne and Hawthorn) have scored less this season.

The Saints are at risk of a second straight year of missing the top eight after a blistering start to the season. (Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)

The Saints are at risk of a second straight year of missing the top eight after a blistering start to the season. (Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)
Lyon bemoaned mistakes kicking inside-50 against the Suns and Steele said he “can’t pinpoint exactly what went wrong but I think our ball movement wasn’t great”.

The Saints rank 10th for inside-50 differential, so they get the ball forward enough, but sit dead last for scores once inside-50.

More Coverage​

Bunnies for big hauls: Which teams goalkickers dominate
16 and done: Is Brodie Grundy finished as a Demon?
Crying out for winners forward of centre, the Saints will weigh up bringing Hayes in for his first game since rupturing his ACL in round 6 last year, with subsequent foot and hamstring injuries keeping him out of action in 2023.

Hayes played in a VFL scratch match at Casey on Saturday and Steele said he “has put his hand up” and “I would love to be able to play with him”.

Livewire forward Jack Higgins (knee) also trained on Tuesday and is set to return if he gets through a test, while Jack Billings (thumb) is an outside chance.
Click to expand...

If the captain thinks its the '2nd tier' players who need to lift then he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.
 
Winmar2Lockett said:
If the captain thinks its the '2nd tier' players who need to lift then he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.
Click to expand...
Yep great point. Also raised my eyebrow. Who exactly is our top tier by the way? Who is Ross talking about? Sinclair, Wilkie, Steele, Marshall? Surely he’s not putting Hill in there.
 

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Winmar2Lockett said:
If the captain thinks its the '2nd tier' players who need to lift then he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.
Click to expand...

Gresham, Ross, Wood, Phillpou , Stocker, Byrnes the main culprits in my book.
Not that they do anything in particular wrong, just that their output has declined more and more since those early wins.

AFL Fantasy points are just that, a fantasy, but they are a measure of stats, and i think its safe to say that if a player goes from scoring 100 points per week to 80, unless they have changed their role significantly, they have gone backwards.

So if i graph out the AFLF points through the year, its an indicator of whether that player is better, worse or just all over the shop.

So i looked at our players. I took their average after their bye and compared it as a percentage to their average before the bye.
That's not the whole story, because several of our players played their guts out in the first few weeks and coasted the rest of the season.
So i also included the trend , up or down over the season.

I didn't count games where the player was injured early.

Wanganeen-Milera 123% Up.
Howard 117% , up.
Crouch 111% , up
Sinclair 110% , up.
Marshal 106% , Slightly up
Butler 105% ,Slightly up.
Wilkie 102% , Flat
Steele 100% , Flat
Hill 100% , Down
Caminiti 98% , Flat

Battle 95%, Slightly Down
Gresham , 94% Down ( from a very low starting point ).
Ross , 93%, Down
Owens , 92% ,Down
Wood , 90% , Down
Phillipou, 83% Down.
Higgins , 80% , Down.
Stocker , 74% , Down
Byrnes , 65% , Down
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Gresham, Ross, Wood, Phillpou , Stocker, Byrnes the main culprits in my book.
Not that they do anything in particular wrong, just that their output has declined more and more since those early wins.

AFL Fantasy points are just that, a fantasy, but they are a measure of stats, and i think its safe to say that if a player goes from scoring 100 points per week to 80, unless they have changed their role significantly, they have gone backwards.

So if i graph out the AFLF points through the year, its an indicator of whether that player is better, worse or just all over the shop.

So i looked at our players. I took their average after their bye and compared it as a percentage to their average before the bye.
That's not the whole story, because several of our players played their guts out in the first few weeks and coasted the rest of the season.
So i also included the trend , up or down over the season.

I didn't count games where the player was injured early.

Wanganeen-Milera 123% Up.
Howard 117% , up.
Crouch 111% , up
Sinclair 110% , up.
Marshal 106% , Slightly up
Butler 105% ,Slightly up.
Wilkie 102% , Flat
Steele 100% , Flat
Hill 100% , Down
Caminiti 98% , Flat

Battle 95%, Slightly Down
Gresham , 94% Down ( from a very low starting point ).
Ross , 93%, Down
Owens , 92% ,Down
Wood , 90% , Down
Phillipou, 83% Down.
Higgins , 80% , Down.
Stocker , 74% , Down
Byrnes , 65% , Down
Click to expand...
I'll take the eye test over fantasy points & the captain is as big a culprit as any in my book.

Yes he's playing hurt but throwing other players under the bus when your own performance is below par is very poor leadership in anyone's language.
 
Winmar2Lockett said:
I'll take the eye test over fantasy points & the captain is as big a culprit as any in my book.

Yes he's playing hurt but throwing other players under the bus when your own performance is below par is very poor leadership in anyone's language.
Click to expand...
You want him to contradict his coach ?
 
Sun Ra said:
You want him to contradict his coach ?
Click to expand...
He seems to have come up with the second statement himself though - the list question and the probably right answer was just a response. Might echo the coach, but not sure he specifically needed to choose those words.
 
Winmar2Lockett said:
I'll take the eye test over fantasy points & the captain is as big a culprit as any in my book.

Yes he's playing hurt but throwing other players under the bus when your own performance is below par is very poor leadership in anyone's language.
Click to expand...

But he's been like that, consistently all season. He's not responsible for the slump.
Apart from that, its crap, he's no-where near his best but still miles better than what we're getting from Ross, Byrnes, Gresham etc.
 
Winmar2Lockett said:
I'll take the eye test over fantasy points & the captain is as big a culprit as any in my book.

Yes he's playing hurt but throwing other players under the bus when your own performance is below par is very poor leadership in anyone's language.
Click to expand...
I look for cause and effect.

Steele is an inside mid who's game is built on the contest - his drop off coincides with a loss of weight to supposedly help improve the running side of his game.

Add the injuries and you might get a very frustrated captain.
 
pebblesofsand said:
I look for cause and effect.

Steele is an inside mid who's game is built on the contest - his drop off coincides with a loss of weight to supposedly help improve the running side of his game.

Add the injuries and you might get a very frustrated captain.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't be like him to drop his bundle would it...
 
From 10 to 70 games currently we have:

King (23 years old)
Paton (24)
Coffield (23)
Byrnes (22)
Stocker (23)
Wanganeen-Milera (20)
Windhager (20)
Sharman (23)
Owens (19)
Bytel (23)
Phillipou (18)
Caminiti (19)

and then below that

Connolly, Hayes, Peris, Adams, Allison, Van Es, Hotton, Keeler, McLennan, Heath

IMO it's very clear that we need to build a team around this bunch because I've given up on the older guys, except maybe Wilkie, Webster, Sinclair, Crouch, maybe a couple of others.

That means imo we trade out anyone we can get a good price for above this cutoff and try to bring in guys from 20 to 23 years old, to add to this group. Flanders obviously perfect, De Koning fits into this group pretty well, Bailey Smith is a good age, etc.
 
bergholt said:
From 10 to 70 games currently we have:

King (23 years old)
Paton (24)
Coffield (23)
Byrnes (22)
Stocker (23)
Wanganeen-Milera (20)
Windhager (20)
Sharman (23)
Owens (19)
Bytel (23)
Phillipou (18)
Caminiti (19)

and then below that

Connolly, Hayes, Peris, Adams, Allison, Van Es, Hotton, Keeler, McLennan, Heath

IMO it's very clear that we need to build a team around this bunch because I've given up on the older guys, except maybe Wilkie, Webster, Sinclair, Crouch, maybe a couple of others.

That means imo we trade out anyone we can get a good price for above this cutoff and try to bring in guys from 20 to 23 years old, to add to this group. Flanders obviously perfect, De Koning fits into this group pretty well, Bailey Smith is a good age, etc.
Click to expand...
Slim pickings to be building a team around. Faaaark.
I guess Clark is there on 80 too.
 
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